Habitat advice.

[MarkJ]

I was thinking about Theraphosa but really haven't begun researching what would work best. This may be backwards but I want this type of environment and need to find a spider that will live well within it.

The buffer would look more like this image, the plants I have are similar to these. I don't have the ferns as tall as that, they are much shorter so it would all fit within my dimensions.


I could drill a 2" hole in the glass for a vent and then go with that, I imagine one would be enough but I could drill two. The other thought I had was to make the entire lid stainless mesh and then cover it with screen using both of your ideas. The mesh I have is 18ga and enough to cover the spider's enclosure weighs about 1.4 kilos so it would make for a solid top. The fans would certainly not need to do much except circulate the air a little bit. Running a linear grill low to provide passive ventilation in a tank with my dimensions is just not going to work logistically so I have to get more creative with the ventilation.

 

[Dorifto]

Without a good ventilation forget any moisture dependant species in a planted enclosure sorry... Maybe an arid species with a "low" ventilation dependency.

 

[MarkJ]

So what I was suggesting with a full mesh lid and fans isn't enough ventilation? I am just trying to understand how one would measure what is enough ventilation. With a 2CFM fan I can change out all the air in the spider's enclosure 25 times in a single hour. If that is not enough, how often would the air need to be changed out in an hour to provide proper ventilation?

How does an environment in the video below work? There are only two rows of holes drilled into the acrylic at the top with no passive ventilation from the bottom at all and no fans. I am a bit confused...

Thank you again for your time and replies!

 

[Dorifto]

One, I wouldn't use a drainage layer, that's for frogs or for other type of enclosures with huge amount of moisture. In our enclosures, if they are overmoisted, the water get's stagnant at the bottom, so more probabilities of having mold issues etc. And two, I wouldn't use acrylic for a planted enclosure, acrylic under moisture warps.

The problem using fans that blow air into the enclosure, is that the T will feel that air current, and automatically will try to reach it, and they will start wandering from the sides, and that's a situation that we should avoid, because it increases injury chances. The enclosure you posted, has the holes pretty close to the ground, so there isn't too much air volume to be moved. Even so, wouldn't use that design for a planted setup. I'd like to see that enclosure time after being recorded, if the humidity condenses or not.

Could you have the oportunity to drill at least tree or four holes per enclosure?

Regarding on how much ventilation is needed, it will depend on your environment, a dryer enviroment will require less ventilation than a humid one. You need to find your right spot.

 

[MarkJ]

I could drill a 2" hole, not very fun though especially since it's drilling on a fixed vertical panel. The glass is 10mm and it makes a real mess with the water running over the bit during drilling as well.

I'm going to do the math on this one when I get time this weekend. If the goal is to maintain 80-85% relative humidity at a temperature of 22-23 C then I have all the factors I need, the air volume of the enclosures, fan specs, external temperature and humidity, etc. I can calculate exactly how often the air needs to be changed in the enclosures without guessing as well as calculate how much water needs to be added in the buffer tank to maintain that humidity level. I do love the math and the builds as much as taking care of the critters!

As for the acrylic, I do prefer glass for tanks as well. I've built about 6 acrylic tanks and while they haven't warped (likely because they are 8 & 10mm thick) they scratch very easy and over time get dull. Glass is far superior for enclosures although it can be a lot harder to work with.

I'll post pictures once I get started!

So I got the basics set up and am doing a lot of testing. I did go with a false bottom but only because it will support the center tank humidity levels while preventing the T sections from being at risk for any mold. It will also benefit the springs and iso's in the center tank better. The barriers between the T sections and the center sections are rock siliconed in place. The light is a Mars Hydro 600W, runs very cool and coverage doesn't extend past the center section, the rock wall dividers keep the direct light off the T's but the ambient light is sufficient for 'daylight' hours. I still have to finish the lid which will be glass and mesh and all three sections will open independently.

It seems that a 2CFM fan for each of the spider sections is more than adequate to keep humidity under control. I'm using a 5V fan that I would typically use in a laptop. They can run an estimated 35,000 hours without failing and are practically impossible to hear running.





Here's the center section without any ventilation, plenty of condensation visible;


Here are the spider sections, no visible condensation;



I have two fans for the center section but are not running either one right now, they will be used to help control the specific humidity levels in the T sections. Next step is to finish the lid, then configure the sensors to maintain humidity levels. Once that is done I'll add the rest of the plants in the center section along with the springs and iso's. Then let it bake for a couple weeks to make sure everything is cycling properly and maintaining the correct levels. I only need about 10 air changes per hour so these fans are not going to need to run that often.


I'm probably still a month or so away from adding any T's....

 

[Wolfram1]

Nice to see you are taking the project seriously

personally i do think the false bottom is a good idea

i would recommend going with adult terrestrial specimens of some of the larger and hardier genera like Acanthoscurria, Lasiodora, Pamphobeteus, etc. as they do well in humid and dry conditions

if they are given a hide they can feel secure under they dont tend to dig very much ether

good luck and keep us posted, i am very much interested in how your project turns out

 

[MarkJ]

Thank you very much!

Here is how I set up the false bottom, the bricks you see are the base for the rock wall barriers between the spider sections and the center..


I was actually looking at a Lasiodora Klugi not too long ago, that is a great looking spider!

There is also a local guy trying to rehome his Lampropelma violaceopes but I haven't looked into what type of environment they need very much, looks like it needs 70% - 80% humidity which I have easily but really haven't researched this T at all yet. The only thing appealing is that the guy needs to rehome it and he's local, not sure what would happen to it if he can't find a new home...

 

[Dorifto]

Honestly I'm not a big fan of that rock divider. if my sight does not deceive me, I see some gaps, even big Ts can squeeze through tiny gaps. I'd have put a glass divider an then decorate it.

What kind of substrate is that? Regarding to it, big barks are also a big no, if they fall, they could rupture or punchture their abdomen pretty fast. I wouldn't use a false bottom unless you have a drainage plug, and even in that's the case, I'd only use it at the middle section. Ts usually dig and rupture the mesh pretty fast, taking the clay balls outside.

I'm with @Wolfram1 regarding to the species. I'd get a big terrestrial ones, A. geniculata should be on top of the list, it's big, has nice colours, has a great feeding response and is always on show.

 

[MarkJ]

The rock wall pieces are siliconed together so it does look like big gaps but the largest opening is only about 6-8mm and I left several of those in place for air flow. The substrate is a mix of top soil, sphagnum moss and cork bark but nothing very hard.

The Geniculata looks like a great choice so maybe that one and the Lasiodora Klugi? They look like they would make good book ends! It looks like that Lampropelma violaceopes the local guy has is an arboreal and would not be ideal for me. I do hope that guy finds her a good home...

Thank you again for the advice!

 

[Wolfram1]

its definitely an unconventional method in terms of separation but it does look good

in regards to the coco-husk pieces you can leave them, they aren't suitable as a main substrate but they don't pose any danger to the spider. At least less danger than falling on a water dish would and we always include those anyway...

Lasiodora klugi is a great choice. As is A. geniculata. Very similar behaviour and build wise. I say team Lasiodora for the win XD.
Since the humidity will still be on the higher side you could probably get away with keeping a Theraphosa species as well.


The only worry i have is that watering the plants will result in very moist substrate for the spiders if those block dividers aren't waterproof, but that is something that is hard to predict. Be vigilant about that during your observation period and you will hopefully spot any trouble before you get your spiders. If the substrate gets wet, not just humid you definitely have to address that. Maybe the substrate-depth could be a little higher also, but it should be fine for most terrestrial species.

 

[MarkJ]

The Theraphosa is my long term goal, I really want to get a Bondi at some point but I don't want to start out with one and I am not in a hurry. I think the Lasiodora and A.geniculata will be the first two I get, they both look awesome! I'll have to find a reputable place to get them but that will come a little later on.

The block dividers were well siliconed from the substrate level all the way down to the bricks they sit on. I wouldn't say its fish tank quality sealing but I think it will probably hold any seepage at bay. Above the substrate line I eased up and left those small holes for air circulation, I was thinking I'd need the humid air but not the water seepage. The increased humidity in the center during watering I hope to address with two of the fans that are installed in there. I can exhaust the air with both of them immediately after watering. The beauty of the cloud sensors and my monitoring system is that if the humidity in the spider tanks goes up too high it will automatically turn those two fans on in the center until the levels drop to whatever I set them at. I plan to test that extensively after I finish the lid.

The monitoring system is called PRTG from Paessler and I've set up literally tens of thousands of sensors with this system (I work in IT) . It has great capability with environmental sensors to the point where I can even tell if water starts to collect on the bottom glass. Monitoring temperature and humidity are all easy and the configurations are quite robust, if I hit a threshold I set I can trigger a script to perform just about any function you can think of such as turning on fans or even calling my cell phone and sending me a picture of the temp/humidity display. The system is free for 100 sensors or less and you can self host it on a desktop or your own server as long as they are always on. The environmental sensors are inexpensive as well. I definitely love data and the more I monitor in those tanks the more I can discover correlations with environmental variables and spider behaviour/health. I really don't want to just have a couple new pets, I want to try and create and maintain a habitat as close to their native habitat as possible so they act just like they would in the wild. That would be way better to watch than TV : )

Thank you for all your input, it's much appreciated!

 

[Dorifto]

Sincerely I'd improve the passive ventilation and at least put a mesh between the bricks. The active fans should be an extra, not the main ventilation system. Ts even big ones can squeeze through very tight places, like octopus. If the carapace fits, the entire T will do.

There is something in the build that triggers an alarm on me Don't know if it's the ventilation, the bricks, the drainage layer or all together. First two are easy to solve, but the drainage layer... I had bad experiences with it. If you don't have a drainage tube, the water gets stagnant, and becomes a mold magnet.

Both Ts are very tolerant with different moisture level.

 

[Wolfram1]

Sincerely I'd improve the passive ventilation and at least put a mesh between the bricks. The active fans should be an extra, not the main ventilation system. Ts even big ones can squeeze through very tight places, like octopus. If the carapace fits, the entire T will do.

There is something in the build that triggers an alarm on me Don't know if it's the ventilation, the bricks, the drainage layer or all together. First two are easy to solve, but the drainage layer... I had bad experiences with it. If you don't have a drainage tube, the water gets stagnant, and becomes a mold magnet.

Both Ts are very tolerant with different moisture level.

actually in my experience the drainage layer is much safer you just can't, i repeat CANNOT have permanently standing water down there otherwise it will wick up and soak the entire substrate but it helps with spreading humidity evenly from the bottom up if you decide to add a lot of water in one go, while keeping the top mostly dry. And become stagnant too ofc. as you said.

apart from that i agree with you, fans should just be there to help but i have faith he will have some passive ventilation through mesh. I think he intends to use the small gaps in the rocks to have some airflow between the middle and outer parts, it remains to be seen if that's a smart idea. Probably depends on how he sets it up.

I don't see the spiders squeezing through those rocks and even if one of them does, all it gets is access to the planted part which shouldn't be a problem, only if both walls fail it would turn ugly.

 

[MarkJ]

I honestly don't think I'll have any water actually make to the spider's sides under the substrate, but I have a sensor under there and will know if it does happen. The Springs and Isos will eliminate any potential for mold in the center tank but I will be sure to monitor that closely as well.

If my primary ventilation was passive I believe it would dry up the inside of my enclosure because my AC runs almost constantly. Even with three very large fish tanks the humidity in my house is normally between 40-45%. I'd have to run the fans in the center compartment non-stop just to push humidity into the spider sections and then I'd have to increase the frequency by which I add water to the center section which of course increases risk of mold. The more environmental factors I can control the healthier the environment becomes. I'd rather control and micro-manage this ecosystem with systems and active monitoring because I really don't think the inside of my house will ever support life that's used to rainforest-ish conditions by itself...

For the bricks, there are no openings in those walls that are larger then what I see drilled into all the habitats I've looked at. I do realize it may look like there are large gaps but that's only because the silicone is RTV 108 and cures clear. I promise you that even a spiderling would have trouble escaping into the center!

I am going to let this entire habitat run for several weeks before I start thinking about adding spiders, I should have good data to rely on when I am ready for that...

So a quick update, got a few plants in and started testing and monitoring temp and humidity levels with various top arrangements. With just the solid glass top you see here covering about half of the one spider sections and the center section wide open I can keep temps at about 24c and humidity between 78 and 82, with no fans running.
The fans have a direct impact on humidity and running just one for 60 minutes will drop the humidity about 10 points. If I run the fans and to keep humidity between 78-82 I need to just about seal the entire center section (where the humidity raises to about 90).

So either way I can have the temp and humidity pretty closely controlled. With the grow light on in the center the temps rise about 3 degrees (c), any hotter and the fans come on automatically but that drops the humidity a little bit.

It looks like the sweet spot is to have the center section sealed using two pieces of glass with a 15 CM wide mesh strip in the middle. The two spider sections sealed half with glass and the other half with mesh. That brown mesh you see will have a fine stainless mesh on the inside of the environment so we won't get any legs caught. Using this set up the fans have only run a total of about 2 hours per day at 2cfm to maintain humidity between 78-82.

I haven't looked into the specific requirements for the two spiders I think I am going with ( Geniculata & Lasiodora Klugi ) so the actual values may need to be adjusted a little bit which shouldn't be a problem...

 

[Dorifto]

Don't use a mesh... Use a perforated aluminium grille. One it'd sturdier, so there is zero possibilities to make a hole and two, the T couldn't climb it. Mine tried to climb it when I unintentionally put the fans inverted, and she could't as the holes are thick enough to not allowing the tarsal claws from grip.

 

[Wolfram1]

just a heads up, the fine stainless mesh i suggested is great, but it is untested the way you plan to use it.

That means contrary to what people may say i have never heard of anyone using fine grade steel mesh as a lid over a large area. I know if you are using 0.2 or 0.1 mm mesh fangs cant get stuck but there is no data/experience reports with using it like that.

I do think it will be much safer than the standard aluminuim mesh but you never know. Keep an eye on it.if you do decide to use it, when it comes to tarsal claws. And swich it if you feel it is unsafe. The fact there is hardly enough room for an adult or subadult spider to dangle without reaching the ground makes it much safer as well.

Mine tried to climb it when I unintentionally put the fans inverted, and she could't as the holes are thick enough to not allowing the tarsal claws from grip.

thats a good point, the mesh wont prevent climbing, probably

 

[cold blood]

looks like it needs 70% - 80% humidity

tarantulas DO NOT have humidity requirements

 

[Dorifto]

You have to put a Half agree award hahahahaha xD

As @cold blood told you, you don't need to focus on specific humidity numbers, that's a bad approach. Anything between 40-80 it's perfectly fine. It's way more important the ventilation. And I mean WAY MORE.

As a informative and courious note: 55% RH at 25°C degrees has more moisture than 100% RH at 10°C, so don't focus on it. It will only affect the frequency you should add moisture to the substrate, as lower RH will dry it faster than a higher one. So focus on providing them a good ventilation, because that will be determine if your proyect is succesful or fails.

 

[MarkJ]

Thanks for all the advice!

So as to humidity, I have to be somewhat concerned about humidity because my AC runs ALL the time, even with my very large fish tanks in the house there is only about 40% humidity. The only level I was trying to achieve was sufficient humidity for the center section plants which probably wouldn't do very well below 70%.

The idea with the mesh was to prevent legs from being damaged if they were to got stuck (see the picture @Dorifto posted in this thread) I was going to use the perforated aluminum and then attach the fine stainless mesh to the underside of it. I would have the rigidity of the perforated aluminum along with the safety of the mesh. Is that overkill?

I've done quite a bit of testing so far and am convinced that the ventilation seems more than capable of being able to alter and maintain both temperatures and humidity levels. The monitoring system will automatically control that operation based on set parameters so I am really not too worried about being able to control the environment. I just need to determine exactly what the best temp/humidity is for the entire tank.

Thanks to everyone again, your experiences with all of this is certainly going to help me improve the quality of life for the spiders!

 

[MarkJ]

Final version;