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I was referring to 8+)'s post, just to avoid confusion.
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If I were to begin to feed my domestics a meat diet, how would I begin? Raw from the deli at the supermarket, or is this not ok?
geoffroy's cat eating
- Thread starter Randolph XX()
- Start date
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If I were to begin to feed my domestics a meat diet, how would I begin? Raw from the deli at the supermarket, or is this not ok?
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One thing I can add to this is that cats should never be put on a raw fish diet. I can not find any good link explaining it in detail but now that you know it you may be able to keep your eyes open. Raw fish contains some... thing (I seriously lack any kind of proper description here, I'm very sorry about that) which will deminish a cats reserve on vitamin A I believe (not sure again sorry.)
Anyway, I can say from personal experience that after feeding my cat raw fish for a few weeks (with several servings a week with only little proper cat food inbetween) my cat got very ill until it had normal cat food again for a few days. Only afterwards did I learn about the fish thing.
Also, I've heard/read that egg white from eggs isn't good either, but the yolk works just fine.
Anyway, I can say from personal experience that after feeding my cat raw fish for a few weeks (with several servings a week with only little proper cat food inbetween) my cat got very ill until it had normal cat food again for a few days. Only afterwards did I learn about the fish thing.
Also, I've heard/read that egg white from eggs isn't good either, but the yolk works just fine.
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And i'd like to add, are your cats vaccinated?
And if you feed them raw pork, did you know they can contract Aujesky's Disease (pseudorabies) from it?
And dude, like I said to you earlier the roach thing is getting old you sound like a baby.
I'm just concerned about your cats health thats why im posting here.
If you dont care then you shouldnt own any cats.
And if you feed them raw pork, did you know they can contract Aujesky's Disease (pseudorabies) from it?
And dude, like I said to you earlier the roach thing is getting old you sound like a baby.
I'm just concerned about your cats health thats why im posting here.
If you dont care then you shouldnt own any cats.
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Here's all the replies I got from a cat site, the topic is 3 pages long, people are VERY concerned for your cats!
#1 I'm not sure what to think. I'm not horrified that he's feeding his cats live mice, although I couldn't bring myself to do it. His Bengal might just not be a "mouser", so why make the poor thing go hungry just so he/she kills a mouse? It does seem cruel.
#2 Oh that's just cruel!
I'd love to deny him food for a day and see what he eats!
#3 Yeah I agree it's stupid to starve your cat like that. If it wants to eat the mouse, then it would. He's giving the cats plenty of opportunity to pick up parasites by feeding them live mice, so I hope he's responsible about giving them meds.
#4 Hmmm has he heard of fatty liver disease???
#5 There are a number of things wrong with what he's doing, imo.
I think starving his cat for a day is just plain wrong and shows ignorance about cats and their feeding habits. Domestic cats aren't like big cats in a zoo as they would, naturally, eat little and often. They'd eat 7 or 8 mice/animals a day in lots of small meals. They're solitary hunters so have evolved to eat lots of small meals. I'd be worried about fatty liver disease too, as someone else mentioned. Someone on another forum I use recently posted a link explaining how that can occur after only 2 days of not eating, so to deliberately starve a cat for 24 hours (unless on veterinary recommendation for medical reasons) is stupid, imo.
re the mice - I don't have a problem with feeding dead mice - the sort you can get at pet shops for snakes - but I don't think feeding them live mice is a good idea. Yes, catching them live is what they'd do if they were hunting their own food, but to deliberately put a live mouse in with a cat is cruel imo. I actually think it's illegal over here to feed live prey to pets.
The fact that he's depriving the bengal of food to force him to eat the mouse does imply to me that he's doing this for his own benefit and not that of his cats. Maybe he gets a kick out of watching his cats kill which is a bit worrying. Why doesn't he just feed the poor thing a raw (dead) diet if he doesn't show much interest or ability in catching and killing the mouse. If the bengal isn't a good hunter that's probably just making it all the more cruel for the mouse which may end up taking a long time to die.
#6 I don't like the idea that he starves it all day either. That's cruel in my eyes
#7 He feeds his cats raw pork? Did I misunderstand? Hasn't he ever heard of Aujesky's Disease (pseudorabies)?
#8 I've actually rescued a couple of mice from cats out here, so I'm not the person he'd want to talk to.
Is that enough disagreements for you?
#1 I'm not sure what to think. I'm not horrified that he's feeding his cats live mice, although I couldn't bring myself to do it. His Bengal might just not be a "mouser", so why make the poor thing go hungry just so he/she kills a mouse? It does seem cruel.
#2 Oh that's just cruel!
I'd love to deny him food for a day and see what he eats!
#3 Yeah I agree it's stupid to starve your cat like that. If it wants to eat the mouse, then it would. He's giving the cats plenty of opportunity to pick up parasites by feeding them live mice, so I hope he's responsible about giving them meds.
#4 Hmmm has he heard of fatty liver disease???
#5 There are a number of things wrong with what he's doing, imo.
I think starving his cat for a day is just plain wrong and shows ignorance about cats and their feeding habits. Domestic cats aren't like big cats in a zoo as they would, naturally, eat little and often. They'd eat 7 or 8 mice/animals a day in lots of small meals. They're solitary hunters so have evolved to eat lots of small meals. I'd be worried about fatty liver disease too, as someone else mentioned. Someone on another forum I use recently posted a link explaining how that can occur after only 2 days of not eating, so to deliberately starve a cat for 24 hours (unless on veterinary recommendation for medical reasons) is stupid, imo.
re the mice - I don't have a problem with feeding dead mice - the sort you can get at pet shops for snakes - but I don't think feeding them live mice is a good idea. Yes, catching them live is what they'd do if they were hunting their own food, but to deliberately put a live mouse in with a cat is cruel imo. I actually think it's illegal over here to feed live prey to pets.
The fact that he's depriving the bengal of food to force him to eat the mouse does imply to me that he's doing this for his own benefit and not that of his cats. Maybe he gets a kick out of watching his cats kill which is a bit worrying. Why doesn't he just feed the poor thing a raw (dead) diet if he doesn't show much interest or ability in catching and killing the mouse. If the bengal isn't a good hunter that's probably just making it all the more cruel for the mouse which may end up taking a long time to die.
#6 I don't like the idea that he starves it all day either. That's cruel in my eyes
#7 He feeds his cats raw pork? Did I misunderstand? Hasn't he ever heard of Aujesky's Disease (pseudorabies)?
#8 I've actually rescued a couple of mice from cats out here, so I'm not the person he'd want to talk to.
Is that enough disagreements for you?
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I'm not trying to take sides here, I'm merely wanting to make the observation that "from a cat site" will do just as much good as this thread right here I suspect.
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I know but Randolph wanted to hear from other sources too, he didnt believe me.
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The thing being though that these sources rather should have some defined authority to them*. Now anybody inkl. Ronald McDonald could have had his say and spoken from the gut. I think you'd have a much stronger case if you find anything scientific and can reference it or a widely recognized expert (weren't you on your way regarding that some time earlier?).
But who knows, maybe Randolph can convince you instead with some good old facts himself?
*Been there all too many times myself
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I'm working on gathering the links to post.
This shouldnt even be an argument, if he doesnt want to consider facts other than the ones he says, it shows he is just being stubborn and doesnt care for the well being of his pets.
But i will find some links so mabye he will read them, and change his mind about a few things.
It may take one or two days, I want to find the best articles.
This shouldnt even be an argument, if he doesnt want to consider facts other than the ones he says, it shows he is just being stubborn and doesnt care for the well being of his pets.
But i will find some links so mabye he will read them, and change his mind about a few things.
It may take one or two days, I want to find the best articles.
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Can you define please "cat site", because I'm thinking of a site that may be a bit skewed in opinion, if we're talking 'cat people'. I would like some primary sources of information, or at least a review article with some sources cited. Quotes from a 'cat site' aren't going to change my opinion one way or the other. Like Cirith ungol, I'm on the fence on this issue, but I'm not giving anyone any credibility for quoting a cat forum, sorry.
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Right, thats why I just said im getting links of articles. Not from anyone on that site, by researching.
The site is a site about cats, self explanitory. The message board has topics on everything on cats, and people from around the world go on it. It's one of the recomended sites in cat fancy magazine, which in itself is an excellent rated magazine as far as accurate information. So it's one of the more reliable places to go for information.
But dont worry forget about the quotes i'll find other sources of information.
The site is a site about cats, self explanitory. The message board has topics on everything on cats, and people from around the world go on it. It's one of the recomended sites in cat fancy magazine, which in itself is an excellent rated magazine as far as accurate information. So it's one of the more reliable places to go for information.
But dont worry forget about the quotes i'll find other sources of information.
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P.jasonius:
meat from the market is fine, but i suggest u to freeze them for couple days and then de-froze them by putting them in the lower level of ur fridge
especially pork and fish, and u can add an egg with the meat+organs, too
but opposite from some keen raw meat feeding believers, i think cat grass is also crucial since they provide fibers, and cats do chew on some grass in the wild
and we do not need to respond to irresponsible owners' two cents that qoute from irresponsible "source".
back to very basic understanding of carnivoras, they don't get preys EVERY DAY, and not to mention that the success rate of feline ambush is not even close to 50%
and Keith, u can stop bugging me for my Email, I am really not interest in u
and unlike wat u said, releasing roaches to the wild is not getting old, cuz it is always not right to release foreign fauna into ur local wild
meat from the market is fine, but i suggest u to freeze them for couple days and then de-froze them by putting them in the lower level of ur fridge
especially pork and fish, and u can add an egg with the meat+organs, too
but opposite from some keen raw meat feeding believers, i think cat grass is also crucial since they provide fibers, and cats do chew on some grass in the wild
and we do not need to respond to irresponsible owners' two cents that qoute from irresponsible "source".
back to very basic understanding of carnivoras, they don't get preys EVERY DAY, and not to mention that the success rate of feline ambush is not even close to 50%
and Keith, u can stop bugging me for my Email, I am really not interest in u
and unlike wat u said, releasing roaches to the wild is not getting old, cuz it is always not right to release foreign fauna into ur local wild
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"and we do not need to respond to irresponsible owners' two cents that qoute from irresponsible "source"."
Boy are you are messing with the wrong person on this one!
Cockroaches have nothing to with cats or this topic your just plain weird!
I insist on still posting I cant wait till I post all my "responsible" proof for you! I'm going to vets for information, and other people who actually know what they are talking about, and you will be proven incorrect.
Some people do care about how they care for their pets, you obviously dont and that makes me mad! I still remember your stupid comment about the cat being killed by a cobra, dont think for a second I forgot about that.
Boy are you are messing with the wrong person on this one!
Cockroaches have nothing to with cats or this topic your just plain weird!
I insist on still posting I cant wait till I post all my "responsible" proof for you! I'm going to vets for information, and other people who actually know what they are talking about, and you will be proven incorrect.
Some people do care about how they care for their pets, you obviously dont and that makes me mad! I still remember your stupid comment about the cat being killed by a cobra, dont think for a second I forgot about that.
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Pretty cool video, puts the "wild" side a bit more into perspective. I don't know, I look at it like this, a wild cats going to eat just about anything it can get it's claws on (rodents, reptiles, and so on), so I wouldn't be to surprised to see a cat getting live mice as food items.
I think the biggest thing I'd be worried about would be parasites like Cryptosporidia (and I think it may have been coccidia as well) being contracted through these feedings. But if the mice are coming from a "reputable" rodent and snake breeder then I'm sure he / she knows about the possiblities of these parasites all too well, and has taken measures into making sure they are not present.
Just my two pennies.
I think the biggest thing I'd be worried about would be parasites like Cryptosporidia (and I think it may have been coccidia as well) being contracted through these feedings. But if the mice are coming from a "reputable" rodent and snake breeder then I'm sure he / she knows about the possiblities of these parasites all too well, and has taken measures into making sure they are not present.
Just my two pennies.
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Well i've done some research and came up with alot, I hope your ready to start reading!
Anyone else with cats is welcomed to read if you are interested.
First lets start with your raw meat diet. There are pros and cons to feeding cats raw meat. There's too much for me to talk about with this topic, so i'll let you read and decide on this one for yourself as people I know do feed raw meat to their cats.
You didnt mention if any of the other food (other than the meat and mice were raw?)
I did find this fact out though, most cats are generally resistant to the bacteria commonly found in raw meat. The cat’s digestive tract is very acidic, very short and processes food quickly. The safest raw foods are beef, chicken, turkey and lamb.
http://www.listnow.com/helpingpaws/articles/article_125.html
You failed to mention if your cats get any fiber. I understand the mice have fiber in their stomach contents, but some extra fiber wont hurt.
Why fiber and other vitamins and minerals are essential.
http://www.netpets.com/cats/reference/food/catnutrition2.html
Next, I would like address the issue I see with pork being used as part of the diet. Raw pork is one of the worst things to give them, again you never mentioned if it's raw or not.
Raw pork may contain the parasite Toxoplasma Gondii which can cause toxoplasmosis (a dangerous infectious disease) in cats. People can then get toxoplasmosis from their cats, when cleaning up the litter pan.
(i'm sure you wouldnt want that!)
This site also tells what foods NEVER to give a cat.
http://tiger.towson.edu/users/knakam1/foods_that_cats_must_not_eat.htm
A bunch of info on Toxoplasmosis in cats and people.
http://www.fabcats.org/toxoplasmosis.html
A varied diet for a cat is always good, but some of the things you mentioned (like lizards and insects) can actually harbor parasites, which can infect your cats internally. Parasites and bacteria can also come from raw meat.
Good ways to prevent parasites:
Precautions to avoid parasite contraction:
* Never feed pork
* If you consider them to be a risk, avoid game meats
* To destroy parasites keep your cat's food frozen below -150C for at least 20 days
* If your cat is free run and eats wild rodents, have your veterinarian examine a stool sample for intestinal parasites every 6 months. Use de-worming medication only when parasites are present, as regular preventative de-worming can be harmful.
* Clean litter boxes promply and thoroughly
And a site giving all the gory details about the parasites they could be at risk for.
http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch2a.php
Next I want to talk about the issue of you not feeding your cat for a day so it will eat the mouse. I think you do this because you enjoy seeing the cat eat live mice. If it wont eat the mouse you could have fed it something else, it wont die if it doesnt eat the mouse.
To be fair, no, it wont die if it doesnt eat for a day, BUT, a cat that doesnt eat will be weaker, if you dont eat for a day you feel tired, hungry, and you try to conserve your energy, right. A pet shouldnt have to do that, it's "domestic" not wild, it doesnt need to hunt to live. If you do this often, your cat may loose weight.
You mentioned the zoo told you that cats dont eat everyday, yes BIG cats dont have to eat everyday, but small cat species do eat everyday most of the time, how is that possible you ask?
Cats are predators, and in the wild they prey on whatever is available. This may include birds, small animals, such as mice, rabbits, and opossums, grasshoppers and other insects, fish and, on occasion, reptiles. Because cats can make do with a variety of food sources, they can always find a new food supply if the old is suddenly no longer available. So they almost never go a day without eating, there's too many food sources around.
Now in the wild a lion or cheetah have it more difficult being they need to take down large prey, and cant hunt right after. They eat a big amount at once, then go a few days before getting the next big meal. Even available in surplus, A bird or mice clearly wont be enough nourishment for a big cat. Cats in zoos dont hunt or use alot of energy, so they can be fine skipping a feeding.
Your Geoffrey's cat is a small cat species, so in the wild it would have more prey to find and hunt.
Article that talks about cat hunting behavior. (top of page)
http://www.petplace.com/cats/why-are-cats-finicky-eaters/page1.aspx
The last and one of the most important things to discuss, do your cats get vaccinated? You dont know how many diseases and problems they can have if they are not vaccinated, especially since you are feeding them all sorts of animals. Again, you havent said if they are vaccinated or not so i can only guess if they are or not.
A list of what shots a cat needs, and how often for an exam. (would probably be different for your geoffrey's cat, but since it shares the house with the bengal, they both need exams.
http://www.thecatconnection.com/care/vaccination.htm
I then researched on the geoffrey's cat. Saw a few things that made me angry after researching: So your keeping a threatened species huh? Are you involved with captive breeding of the species?
Hunted extensively throughout its range for its fur, geoffrey's cat is one of the most hunted of wild cat species. However, geoffrey's cat is still the most highly populated of all South American wild cats and it is possibly due to this large population that as many as 150,000 pelts are traded annually.
Geoffrey's cat is now listed in CITES Appendix 2 as threatened.
They are hunted for their skins, and due to heavy harvesting of this species for their fur, they are endangered.
At least 25 adult Geoffroy’s cats are killed to make one fur coat.
Bunch of sites on Geoffrey's cat.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/geoffrey.htm
http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=51
http://members.aol.com/cattrust/geoffroy.htm
And a site on Bengals.
Did you know they like water and love to swim?
http://www.bengalsofshabeel.com/about.htm
So as you can see I do research and have plenty of links for "responsible" information.
I hope you will read everything I posted. I can do no more for you.
Anyone else with cats is welcomed to read if you are interested.
First lets start with your raw meat diet. There are pros and cons to feeding cats raw meat. There's too much for me to talk about with this topic, so i'll let you read and decide on this one for yourself as people I know do feed raw meat to their cats.
You didnt mention if any of the other food (other than the meat and mice were raw?)
I did find this fact out though, most cats are generally resistant to the bacteria commonly found in raw meat. The cat’s digestive tract is very acidic, very short and processes food quickly. The safest raw foods are beef, chicken, turkey and lamb.
http://www.listnow.com/helpingpaws/articles/article_125.html
You failed to mention if your cats get any fiber. I understand the mice have fiber in their stomach contents, but some extra fiber wont hurt.
Why fiber and other vitamins and minerals are essential.
http://www.netpets.com/cats/reference/food/catnutrition2.html
Next, I would like address the issue I see with pork being used as part of the diet. Raw pork is one of the worst things to give them, again you never mentioned if it's raw or not.
Raw pork may contain the parasite Toxoplasma Gondii which can cause toxoplasmosis (a dangerous infectious disease) in cats. People can then get toxoplasmosis from their cats, when cleaning up the litter pan.
(i'm sure you wouldnt want that!)
This site also tells what foods NEVER to give a cat.
http://tiger.towson.edu/users/knakam1/foods_that_cats_must_not_eat.htm
A bunch of info on Toxoplasmosis in cats and people.
http://www.fabcats.org/toxoplasmosis.html
A varied diet for a cat is always good, but some of the things you mentioned (like lizards and insects) can actually harbor parasites, which can infect your cats internally. Parasites and bacteria can also come from raw meat.
Good ways to prevent parasites:
Precautions to avoid parasite contraction:
* Never feed pork
* If you consider them to be a risk, avoid game meats
* To destroy parasites keep your cat's food frozen below -150C for at least 20 days
* If your cat is free run and eats wild rodents, have your veterinarian examine a stool sample for intestinal parasites every 6 months. Use de-worming medication only when parasites are present, as regular preventative de-worming can be harmful.
* Clean litter boxes promply and thoroughly
And a site giving all the gory details about the parasites they could be at risk for.
http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch2a.php
Next I want to talk about the issue of you not feeding your cat for a day so it will eat the mouse. I think you do this because you enjoy seeing the cat eat live mice. If it wont eat the mouse you could have fed it something else, it wont die if it doesnt eat the mouse.
To be fair, no, it wont die if it doesnt eat for a day, BUT, a cat that doesnt eat will be weaker, if you dont eat for a day you feel tired, hungry, and you try to conserve your energy, right. A pet shouldnt have to do that, it's "domestic" not wild, it doesnt need to hunt to live. If you do this often, your cat may loose weight.
You mentioned the zoo told you that cats dont eat everyday, yes BIG cats dont have to eat everyday, but small cat species do eat everyday most of the time, how is that possible you ask?
Cats are predators, and in the wild they prey on whatever is available. This may include birds, small animals, such as mice, rabbits, and opossums, grasshoppers and other insects, fish and, on occasion, reptiles. Because cats can make do with a variety of food sources, they can always find a new food supply if the old is suddenly no longer available. So they almost never go a day without eating, there's too many food sources around.
Now in the wild a lion or cheetah have it more difficult being they need to take down large prey, and cant hunt right after. They eat a big amount at once, then go a few days before getting the next big meal. Even available in surplus, A bird or mice clearly wont be enough nourishment for a big cat. Cats in zoos dont hunt or use alot of energy, so they can be fine skipping a feeding.
Your Geoffrey's cat is a small cat species, so in the wild it would have more prey to find and hunt.
Article that talks about cat hunting behavior. (top of page)
http://www.petplace.com/cats/why-are-cats-finicky-eaters/page1.aspx
The last and one of the most important things to discuss, do your cats get vaccinated? You dont know how many diseases and problems they can have if they are not vaccinated, especially since you are feeding them all sorts of animals. Again, you havent said if they are vaccinated or not so i can only guess if they are or not.
A list of what shots a cat needs, and how often for an exam. (would probably be different for your geoffrey's cat, but since it shares the house with the bengal, they both need exams.
http://www.thecatconnection.com/care/vaccination.htm
I then researched on the geoffrey's cat. Saw a few things that made me angry after researching: So your keeping a threatened species huh? Are you involved with captive breeding of the species?
Hunted extensively throughout its range for its fur, geoffrey's cat is one of the most hunted of wild cat species. However, geoffrey's cat is still the most highly populated of all South American wild cats and it is possibly due to this large population that as many as 150,000 pelts are traded annually.
Geoffrey's cat is now listed in CITES Appendix 2 as threatened.
They are hunted for their skins, and due to heavy harvesting of this species for their fur, they are endangered.
At least 25 adult Geoffroy’s cats are killed to make one fur coat.
Bunch of sites on Geoffrey's cat.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/geoffrey.htm
http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=51
http://members.aol.com/cattrust/geoffroy.htm
And a site on Bengals.
Did you know they like water and love to swim?
http://www.bengalsofshabeel.com/about.htm
So as you can see I do research and have plenty of links for "responsible" information.
I hope you will read everything I posted. I can do no more for you.
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ya, i've been talking about this with some rodent breeder quite a while ago
those are nasty parasites which mostly happened in outdoor breeding range
but if the stocks are well kept lines from indoor, it's okay
u don't really need to list the sites to let me know wat the Geoffroy's cat is when u don't really know wat is it at the first place, lolLOL I thought Geoffroy was the owners name!
So it's a hybrid I get it.
this is a better source here, http://www.exoticcatz.com/
and is this ur very own irony to bring up "coffee table" information, or academic journals/articles are simply unaccessable?DAmn, i think i should mail JSTOR to let them know this
roaches can glide and escape if u let them out, just make sure u know that
i am just a mere human, i guess it's not my job to make someone who don't choose to choose
guess wat?
i guess u're one of the flatearth society members
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/
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