Did they ever succeed?

LaRiz

Arachnodemon
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
672
Nope

...they didn't succeed. Thank God!
I'm not being selfish. Species "protected" by CITES, in countries that don't give a damn about them (propagation programs, setting aside habitat) are doomed.
 

Vys

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
1,571
How are they more doomed than if they are not listed ? You mean listing them just forces them out of the country in illegal ways?
 

chaset

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
120
I kinda fear for pokes, i see lots of writings on websites, about how they are almost all gone from the wild, I wish India and Sri Lanka were not such bastard countrys
 

Vys

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
1,571
I too wish they'd become a tad more aware of what the worth of their animals...well..the day chinese people stop buying crushed tiger-head as an afrodisiac, I guess :(
Although aggressive pilfering of pokies for the pet - trade certainly isn't helping..if that's the only chance they've got though..grr..shouldn't be that way
 

arachnopunks

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
391
People will probably just kill them if they can't make money off of them. Didn't something like this happen with the Chilean Rose??

Originally posted by Vys
How are they more doomed than if they are not listed ? You mean listing them just forces them out of the country in illegal ways?
 

LaRiz

Arachnodemon
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
672
Originally posted by Vys
How are they more doomed than if they are not listed ? You mean listing them just forces them out of the country in illegal ways?
Better illegally alive, than legally extinct. If India doesn't do something fast, this genus as well as other fauna and flora, will disappear. Deforestation is the biggest threat here. People need a place to live. India has one of the fastest population growths. They are expected to surpass Chine 6 billion by 2045, making India the most populous country in the world.
It is speculated that there are already numerous species within Poecilotheria that are extinct, never even having been described.
I have faith in CITES, but it can literally doom some species, in my opinion.
Click me to learn more about India's population growth and deforestation
I can see where CITES could help them and others, if they were listed. Land would have to be set aside and habitats protected. This is probably impossible in a country that doesn't really give a crap about them. Rick West would know more about why Poecilotheria was proposed to be listed. I believe it was he, coupled with the USFWS, that pushed for listing Poecilotheria under Appedix II.
I surely hope that the proposal was not based on overcollection data, but for habitat destruction and deforestation.
 

Code Monkey

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
3,786
Originally posted by LaRiz
I can see where CITES could help them and others, if they were listed. Land would have to be set aside and habitats protected.
Last time I checked, and last time Rick West talked about the subject (which was just 2 weeks ago in chat), the whole "emperor wears no clothes" problem of CITES is that it doesn't touch what can or cannot be done to a species *within* its native country. Putting pokes on CITES would make their import/export extremely difficult, but India would not have to do one thing to conserve them. In fact, they could agree to abide by CITES on Monday, and pave all the forests pokes live in on Tuesday and not be guilty of breaking the treaty. CITES is less than useless for protecting animals not threatened by unregulated trade, and it's an extinction sentence in countries not inclined to protect their own animals adequately. CITES only works to protect species for which driving their markets underground internationally will diminish or eliminate the poaching and illegal harvesting and for which this is a primary threat. Pokes are being wiped out because of habitat loss, put them on CITES and they'd just disappear even faster.
 

Immortal_sin

Arachnotemptress
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 17, 2002
Messages
3,955
exactly what C_M said..same thing happening in Mexico. They just kill the B smithi down there, and you can't legally export/import them....
All it's done is to give native species a death sentance, it's not about conservation, it's about money
 

looseyfur

Arachnofur
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
431
conservation

if the same attention directed towards CITIES was directed toward conservation projects we could all breath alitte eaiser. I wouldnt mind never owning a spider if I knew it couldnt be exported but that efforts were in place to protect its natural habitat. I agree with C_M ( who typically cuts to the chase ) as well as with many others when it comes to CITIES. The idea of having a spider drop off the face of the earth out of shear ignorance makes me sick. The idea of CITIES as a protective element is complete horsesh*t though illegal import and export of potental and endangered T's is just as much bullsh*t in my eyes. There will always be a massive lack of common sence and a peice of legislation(sp) will always find its way to money vs the acual preservation of a species. Totally the wrong focus , matter of fact it has just the oppsite effectiveness. if there is a god , how ashamed of us he must be...

PERSERVE THE RAINFOREST and NATURAL ENVIRONMENTS support efforts whos true adjendas (sp) are just that ...

we should be carefull lest we take a path which leads to even darker days ahead for our beloved hobby and our fuzzy 8 legged pals.


sigh-

looseyf|_|r
e.
 

Ultimate Instar

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 20, 2002
Messages
457
Assuming that the Pokies are doomed, I am inclined to try to keep and breed some of these species. I doubt that any captive breeding attempts by hobbyists will result in eventual releases to the wild. Still, who knows? Which species are the best candidates for long term survival in captivity? Most colorful, easy to breed, not too aggressive?

Karen N.
 

Vayu Son

Avatar of Anansi
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
809
><

Im not too sure why pokeys were attempted to be put on CITES. but i do know rick west is very pessimistic as to hobby-breeding t's to increase survival rate.

When asked on chat about it, I only got:

"One whole tree is cut down for the sole purpose of collecting one Poecilotheria"

and

"Can you name an endangered T who is now alive because of captive-breeding?"


To which my response is: Deforestation is more of a problem than collecting. Yes people will attempt to capitilize, yes it is becoming futile to fight it, but No breeding is not useless. I suppose we will find out in 10 yrs or so.


-V
 

LaRiz

Arachnodemon
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
672
CITES

CITES does have it's problems. Like I said before, and reiterated by CM, CITES may not help preserve a species suffering from a problem such as deforestation/habitat loss. Why CITES anyways?
Convention on the International Trade of Endangered Species. Is there international trade of Poecilotheria out of India? Maybe it's to prevent any future exportation. Also, are they endangered? Says who? Maybe listing the genus within Appendix II will give time to find this stuff out. Sort of like what's happening with Parson's Chameleons.
I will always have faith in CITES, but in this instance, I doubt it will help Poeciloteria, where the biggest threat is not overcollection for the pet trade, but deforestation and habitat loss.
We could talk in circles all day. It's agreed by many that the latter is the main problem.
 

Mister Internet

Big Meanie Doo Doo Head :)
Arachnosupporter +
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
1,408
Re: ><

Originally posted by Vayu Son
Im not too sure why pokeys were attempted to be put on CITES. but i do know rick west is very pessimistic as to hobby-breeding t's to increase survival rate.

When asked on chat about it, I only got:

"One whole tree is cut down for the sole purpose of collecting one Poecilotheria"

and

"Can you name an endangered T who is now alive because of captive-breeding?"

To which my response is: Deforestation is more of a problem than collecting. Yes people will attempt to capitilize, yes it is becoming futile to fight it, but No breeding is not useless. I suppose we will find out in 10 yrs or so.
Vayu,

While I can understand your bright-eyed faith in captive breeding... Mr. West (who has been studying Ts in their natural habitat longer than you've been alive) is not just spouting "Save The Earth Destroy The T Hobby" bullcrap. The simple fact is that there are probably only a handful, if any, instances of someone actually breeding spiderlings, raising them to adults, and repeating the breeding process. All breeding projects start with WC adults, with few exceptions. The capacity and management of a "warehouse" to provide both breeding stock as well as enough spiderlings to propagate the hobby in the future is absolutely mind-boggling. Hoke is probably the furthest along this path, but even he uses WC adults still, at least I would think.

Mr. West never said that captive breeding will NEVER help a FEW species, but to pretend that we are ensuring the survival of species or anything along those lines is a very false statement at this point, unless someone can prove otherwise. That was his point... he's just frustrated that he sees 50,000 rosies a year carted out of Chile while hobbyists tend to ignore the very real impact on the Ts' native habitats and ecosystems by saying, "but...but...but... there's captive breeding! HAHA!". It's kind of a cop-out...

Anyway, I hope the next time he comes on the chat, people treat him better... I got so disgusted with that chat that I just left... I had to go anyway, but nothing I was reading made me want to stick around longer. He asked nicely that people "not get him started", but people went ahead and did it anyway. I won't blame him if he never comes back, which is a shame... one guy can only take explaining himself repeatedly for so long...
 

AlbinoDragon829

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
383
All this talk of pokies (and other endangered species) possibly being eradicated is sickening.
 

AlbinoDragon829

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
383
Re: Re: ><

Originally posted by Mister Internet I won't blame him if he never comes back, which is a shame... one guy can only take explaining himself repeatedly for so long...
That's almost as sickening... Considering I haven't been to the chat yet and would love to get a chance to pose even one question to such a knowledgeable person.
 

Vayu Son

Avatar of Anansi
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
809
><

No, he was right. I cannot name any species that have been saved because of captive breeding or the hobby. I dont know why you got disgusted. My questions and debates i chose to pursue were based on the fact that I do not see my keeping of T's as detrimental to their survival in the wild. If I own a Poecilotheria for the enrichment of my own life, and use it to breed more Poecilotheria and educate friends/elementary schools/others interested in breeding, then I do not consider it a wrong to theraphosids in general.

My gripe is this: Yes collecting rare species to the point of eliminating them in the wild is a shame. Yes deforestation is horrible as well. It happens. Stopping collecting wont stop deforestation, and collecting wont stop as long as the spiders are there and are available and a profit can be made.

Rick west has been studying tarantulas longer than I have been alive, but that point doesnt render my arguments invalid. Brachypelma albopilosum, Poecilotheria regalis, Avicularia versicolor, Theraphosa blondi... many of these species have a strong enough captive population that continued breeding effort will yield longterm results. In the wild, they will cease to exist. Many proffesionals do not have time or funding to seriously breed these animals, so their survival is in the sole hands of the hobbyists.

Without personal collections and breeding efforts from us, the hobbyists, then there is little to no outlet for the young to see them and be captivated by them. That means less arachnologists, less enthusiasts, and less people who care at all whether its alive or dead. We could leave it all to the professionals, but the fact that there are so few of them indicate an even grimmer future for the arachnids. I will breed my T's and I will educate others about them. I own 0 WC specimens. I refuse to allow that this is an evil or that all of our efforts are for nothing.

As far as the chat was concerned, I did not say anything to justify offense. My questions were well thought out, and I only wanted to know why certain parties felt that way about the hobby, and how they came to those conclusions. That you got disgusted and left was really not my intention.

Arachnologists like Rick West have the knowledge and Information and sway to make use of the hobbyists. All we need is a programmer to create some kind of tracking program for our T's, get em serial numbers, prevent inbreeding as best as possible, and start species propogation. We are an untapped resource. The hobby will be here whether you participate in it or not. or me for that matter. It should be used instead of condemned.

-V
 
Last edited:

Mister Internet

Big Meanie Doo Doo Head :)
Arachnosupporter +
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
1,408
V,

I totally agree... I was just trying to put West's points in a different light... they are not necessarily my thoughts. As far as getting disgusted with the chat... it was merely because he just wanted to talk Ts, and tried to gently steer discussion away from his already infamous views on captive breeding/keeping etc etc... when people would not let up, he relented, but there are numerous articles on websites and in magazines where he has said as much, for anyone to read.

I totally agree with you that extinction of a species will never come about because of collecting for sale in the hobby... I also agree that deforestation, et. al. will continue to occur regardless of the existence of the T hobby. I think it's great that you hav purchased only CB T's.... however, I think you will agree that in order to fully preserve the sum total of all species currently being traded in the hobby it would require at minimum an order of magnitude more hobbyists, and ALL of them as dedicated as someone like Scott or Wade or any of the other people who keep LARGE numbers... could this conceivably happen? Sure, there are only maybe a few thousand serious T hobbyists, if that. It would be no problem to increase that number. Until we get to that point, though... West's opinion remains valid.
 
Top