Cleaning WC inverts to obtain clean colonies

[Wolfram1]

Yea, also i forgot to mention only feed as much as they will consume quickly, as you never want to have any food waste go bad or sit long enough for other organisms to feed off of. That mostly keeps mites and flies at bay.
Keeping them on or in leaf litter or a more naturalistic setup also seems healthier for them in the long term. But letting it go dry from time to time goes a long way as long as the roaches can deal with it.

i am way less involved in my food prep for them but my friend basically makes them a blend of oat-porridge, calcium & vitamin powder (in moderation), banana, and or any other fruits and vegetables he has around and then gives each bin a laddle-full.

He has been keeping different strains of P. americana for years and never had one escape, they run in to hide rather than run out when he opens it. He uses large plastic ikea-bins with a glass-pane as a lid that can be slid open towards the back, the glass is heavy enough that they can't squeeze through and the ventilation can be melted into the plastic in any size via a stainless-steel gaze, those come so fine, perhaps only the tiniest of orgaisms can make their way in or out. the door to his animal room is also roach proof, just in case.

He even tested a pesticide ment for roaches on them once, with a good dose of the spray on the animal. It recovered and even layed a viable oocthecae. On the other hand a short trip to the fridge (about 4°C for ~1/2 h) ended up deadly for the P. americana....

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Amazing, thanks for your very well thought out reply, and your friends assistance as well. Much appreciated!

I agree that live bearing may be harder to get clean. Honestly the main selections are body mass, climbing and flying ability (rather, lack of both) being preferred.

I see live bearing as being more problematic as far as parasites and pathogens go as well. However I prefer them as it seems less likely to escape captivity. It is a reason i dont keep many phasmids now, eggs can so easily escape notice. I normally contain and burn everything i dispose of from "bugs" in general, but the risk is still there moreso than missing a living roach or the survival of such. That's really the only plus I have on them, plus usually a substrate is as essential.

Certainly though, it is a much easier and surer way of breaking pathogen cycles. I am not strictly married to the idea of live bearers only, the other requirements for my own purposes are priority.



This is something I am interested to learn more about, as I am not so sure that is necessarily the case. For example one of the articles above talks about different worms in cockroaches. I can see various worm species not really needing a crazy life cycle and them repeating infection. I worry more about this with roaches as it is believed some species of roach need the feces of the adults to kick start their gut biota. this is one aspect I have more concern about as they may well need the fecal matter, but that is direct transition if various parasites. I thought up some weird and wonderful containers that have mesh floor to allow feces go down, but this would be a problem for the babies that may benefit from such material. But I am still learning more about this aspect of cockroach development in general.





Absolutely. observe and cull is par for the course. I meant nothing.negative by it, simply that is isnt enough I think observe and react is always a constant part of any animals husbandry, 24/7.

The food thing is also a real issue. Luckily, I am in the food and.agricukture business selling ingredients to pet and human food markets. so we operate some organic farms that go through the hoops. I feed all my animals from that farm. We actually have a new egg plant variety that we are feed to all our animals that eat "feuit" with massive success.

But this is a thing I was thinking about today making some isopod collections at one of our farms. As you mentioned, outdoor things are unknown. I was thinking especially isopod wood and.leaf litter that comes in rotten. In culture, I usually soak, freeze, boil anything like leaves/wood etc. not worried about.mold usually, which such cell destruction usually promotes rather than avoids. but it hopefully kills all the animals living inside. Food we usually use human grade organic from the farms. we have lots of things that dont meet size standards so I usually nab a few from the "juice grades" hehe. I also dry and powder my own pet foods, including cockroach meal. but that's maybe off topic. the main point is avoiding the parasites. we heat treat our home made dry foods for our fish.

Unlike Austria, here in Taiwan it is hot and humid, and there are some real parasites to be wary of! Regardless, even animals escape here they basically thrive. We have a similar issue as florida, maybe less extreme due to less herp folks about, in regards to invasive species. We just dont get winters like florida. So it is a serious risk, the government now is starting to get involved because the pet trade has been so irresponsible. We now have strict import regulations on 8000ish news species because of irresponsible folks and escapees

note, I am not intending to have humans eating cockroaches, rather just attempting to achieve that level of quality control as a standard




Thanks for the help on ID. I am slightly less concerned with identification at the moment as we are essentially just screening for habits and lifestyles, then refining the selection based on body, feeding and enclosure types preferred. We have many contacts in various biology fields we can ask for assistance once we have chosen. I'm sure that wont be an issue Aprreciate your time to take a look as well!

Flies I have indeed noticed. I did not identify them as I witnessed maggots in deceased specimens. I dumped the whole lot as soon as they were observed haha. I am hoping the younger ones photographed above are the same species and perhaps wont have this issue. so far they are looking good and feeding well




To be fair, so far all the articles I have read have not discussed in detail their procedures as this thread intends to discuss. they mention they do take extreme care, but the mention of actual operating procedures and protocols are quite limited. I am still searching

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss. I find it quite beneficial to brainstorm with others on any given subject

Sucks i take it dubia roaches are banned ? What’s the next biggest species you can get??
P. americana can infest.

 

[MariaLewisia]

But let's not go stirring up the ancient Icelandic Swede cuisine rivalry when the countries are separated by Haggis.

Mmm haggis! Sounds disgusting but it is delicious!

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Mmm haggis! Sounds disgusting but it is delicious!

Did they rename this thread the worlds most looking grossest foods lol …like the op can’t wait to snack on his American cockroaches .

 

[Kada]

Sucks i take it dubia roaches are banned ? What’s the next biggest species you can get??
P. americana can infest.

Not in taiawna that I know of. Few things are banned here, unfortunately. based to loads of irresponsible people doing stupid things with dangerous animals. it is importing that is more regulated. last month I saw a guy on facebook with a thorny devilasking how to find ants. the level of insanity never ceases to amaze!

Dubia is common here. we have loads of species of roaches available dirt cheap. my goal is to attempt to switch the pet hobby from potentially invasive species as feeders to native species because people here truly are not respectful of what they are keeping. Things like red runners. first is clean is clean culture of suitable species

In the off chanceanyoneelse is I.terested, here is what is thoroughly recorded here in Taiwan: Its in Mandarin but all the scientific names are clear and easy to navigate

There are a lot more that have already escaped captivity and are living is small pockets here and there. they are already out though, so just a matter of until the gov deems them officially naturalized It took a decade or so before veiled chameleons, today geckos, iguanas etc were officially considered naturalized here, and they breed way slower.

台灣生物多樣性網絡

台灣生物多樣性網絡（Taiwan Biodiversity Network，TBN）是致力於運用生態調查開放資料，提供臺灣野生生物分布查詢的線上服務平台

www.tbn.org.tw

In relation to P. americana, we have these species in the genus in the wild:

Periplaneta americana, Periplaneta arisanica, Periplaneta australasiae, Periplaneta banksi, Periplaneta brunnea, Periplaneta formosana, Periplaneta fuliginosa, Periplaneta karnyi, Periplaneta svenhedini

 

[Wolfram1]

Not in taiawna that I know of. Few things are banned here, unfortunately. based to loads of irresponsible people doing stupid things with dangerous animals. it is importing that is more regulated. last month I saw a guy on facebook with a thorny devilasking how to find ants. the level of insanity never ceases to amaze!

Dubia is common here. we have loads of species of roaches available dirt cheap. my goal is to attempt to switch the pet hobby from potentially invasive species as feeders to native species because people here truly are not respectful of what they are keeping. Things like red runners. first is clean is clean culture of suitable species

In the off chanceanyoneelse is I.terested, here is what is thoroughly recorded here in Taiwan: Its in Mandarin but all the scientific names are clear and easy to navigate

There are a lot more that have already escaped captivity and are living is small pockets here and there. they are already out though, so just a matter of until the gov deems them officially naturalized It took a decade or so before veiled chameleons, today geckos, iguanas etc were officially considered naturalized here, and they breed way slower.

台灣生物多樣性網絡

台灣生物多樣性網絡（Taiwan Biodiversity Network，TBN）是致力於運用生態調查開放資料，提供臺灣野生生物分布查詢的線上服務平台

www.tbn.org.tw

i hope you succeed, it restores my faith in humanity a little to see you work in that direction

why wait for a ban when you already know something is problematic and there are plenty of possible alternatives that just were not tried, i wish more people were as proactive

good luck with the project

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Not in taiawna that I know of. Few things are banned here, unfortunately. based to loads of irresponsible people doing stupid things with dangerous animals. it is importing that is more regulated. last month I saw a guy on facebook with a thorny devilasking how to find ants. the level of insanity never ceases to amaze!

Dubia is common here. we have loads of species of roaches available dirt cheap. my goal is to attempt to switch the pet hobby from potentially invasive species as feeders to native species because people here truly are not respectful of what they are keeping. Things like red runners. first is clean is clean culture of suitable species

In the off chanceanyoneelse is I.terested, here is what is thoroughly recorded here in Taiwan: Its in Mandarin but all the scientific names are clear and easy to navigate

There are a lot more that have already escaped captivity and are living is small pockets here and there. they are already out though, so just a matter of until the gov deems them officially naturalized It took a decade or so before veiled chameleons, today geckos, iguanas etc were officially considered naturalized here, and they breed way slower.

台灣生物多樣性網絡

台灣生物多樣性網絡（Taiwan Biodiversity Network，TBN）是致力於運用生態調查開放資料，提供臺灣野生生物分布查詢的線上服務平台

www.tbn.org.tw

In relation to P. americana, we have these species in the genus in the wild:

Periplaneta americana, Periplaneta arisanica, Periplaneta australasiae, Periplaneta banksi, Periplaneta brunnea, Periplaneta formosana, Periplaneta fuliginosa, Periplaneta karnyi, Periplaneta svenhedini

I see that makes sense supporting your native animals . Just remember there’s a way bigger escape risk vs dubia so be careful. Not like your worried about native species getting loose .

 

[The Snark]

so just a matter of until the gov deems them officially naturalized

Usually the last thing the ecosystems need is governments getting involved which more often than not is the nuclear option. Send in the exterminators with various pesticides that wipe out all animals. And a common by product of that response is the microorganisms usually held in check by natural balance go into overdrive and create disease ridden death zones for animals attempting to repopulate the areas.

 

[Kada]

Usually the last thing the ecosystems need is governments getting involved which more often than not is the nuclear option. Send in the exterminators with various pesticides that wipe out all animals. And a common by product of that response is the microorganisms usually held in check by natural balance go into overdrive and create disease ridden death zones for animals attempting to repopulate the areas.

I usually agree. but sometimes the public doesnt give them much choice

So far the government here has done a few things for ecosystems. Create protected areas (parks etc), ban imports of selected species, create killing/capture campaigns (rodents, cats, dogs, mosquitoes, frogs, iguanas and so on).

It's not ideal, but I am a firm believer in prevention rather than a "fix". The responsibility in this sense is that if the public and the pet trade, which so far has only proven to be incredibly irresponsible as a whole in my country Time to start getting it a little more robust.

 

[The Snark]

I usually agree. but sometimes the public doesnt give them much choice

True. An overextended blanket statement on my part.

So far the government here has done a few things for ecosystems.

I've heard some positive steps taken in Taiwan. Fingers crossed it's a grassroots movement and not another momentary political ploy.

It's not ideal, but I am a firm believer in prevention rather than a "fix". The responsibility in this sense is that if the public and the pet trade, which so far has only proven to be incredibly irresponsible as a whole in my country

My experience is Singapore. Singapore government. Rolling my eyes here. Do you know the old Chinese saying, roughly the Yaoguai and the Fēicháng kě'ài de living under the same roof?
The naturalist crowd bordering fascist fanatic, modernization at any cost but tear down a skyscraper to put in a park since that area hadn't met the green space requirements... and I was there during a major dengue epidemic when the gloves came off and every dang drain in the city was coughing up toxic gasses. Lion of the sea, I rename thee Mixed Signals.

 

[Kada]

Quick note to the administration and moderators of the forum. Just in case, some forums are quite heavily edited, split or deleted. as the topic starter, I enjoy random offshoots in the conversation, as it all relates (biology). Some forums split or delete posts that are not strictly in line with the title or thread. If possible, it would be nice to allow such offshoots as we can discuss more deeply about all the issues surrounding the direct question. I hope that's OK here, seems to be pretty good so far. From minor geopolitics and culture to food preferences, it actually does relate and is a worthy thing to pursue Just as an in case, if moderation worries about the original posters' intentions. My own intentions are for broad and in depth back and forth (discussion), even if we still discuss these opinions continue to differ and/or evolve over the years From what I have seen, this forum is excellent in these regards. just wanted to say this so it's clear the OP is totally ok with side topics that arent directly related but almost surely actually relate, even if folks completely disagree (the best way towards a sollution in my opinion hehe ) Just dont want worried moderation on my part, anything goes for me if the site is ok with it, within the rules of course

I've heard some positive steps taken in Taiwan. Fingers crossed it's a grassroots movement and not another momentary political ploy.

I guess every country has their pros and cons. In my opinion on Taiwan, we have a LOT of public dollars spent on public appeasement. Good intentions, loads of money, very little actual logic. most of the "conservation" moves from the government are not actually based on logic and long term sustainability in any sort of preventative way, but more a knee jerk reaction to enough public outcry that it affects votes. That may sound bad, but actually I use this as a positive. Meaning, the promotion for the public should be more involved (and intelligent!).

A great example:

Green iguanas have been spreading "fast" for over a decade here. this is absolutely a pet trade issue, without dispute from man one side. The government now has had campaigns to eradicate them. Needed, but implemented poorly. Bounty style with loads being tortured by psychotic folks or just mistreated by ignorant people. Also a stain on our culture to be honest, testament tour current lack of emlathy/sympathy towards thing we do not have the actual capability to communicate with. It is bad here! In Asia in general,if I may use the broad brush... This iguana eradication scheme came about due to agriculture concern (not ecology which was just a later convenient scape goat), them being essentially vegetarian and farmers complaining. Truth be told, they have minimal affect on AG crops (I am in AG and run farms, so speak from experience with them) . Interestingly, foreign species that eat meat dont get the same knee jerk reaction from the government because they dont directly affect crops (profits, especially exports). In this situation I would use various geckos, skinks Texas examples from the lizard world. there are news now, but nothing has been done for an even.longer period. simply: no public outcry.

I dont personally believe public outcry should be the reason a government takes action on ecology. Science should be the reason. Mostly because the general public is not exactly "up to snuff", myself included....so I want to be better if I am to be involved with the hobby again. I used to be a breeder of reptiles, some frogs, inverts and feeders 20 years ago. just for context. I left because of such lack of ethics).

usually it's the public problem / NGO route here, which is obviously slow, not full coverage and basically also just a band aid for a problem easily prevented. Easily prevented I suppose is my opinion.

I am less worried about some iguanas, geckos, turtles and such escaping and chomping on some leaves, but the economy is extremely worried. and when it comes to molluscs and invertebrates, the worries multiply fast. Even i lose probably 40% of my companies net based in african land snails alone, yet they are farmed legally with co stant escape by the minute. a fun point of irony.

What I am worried about, outside of profits, is 2 fold:

Pathogen spread. For example, the escaped/released lizards, frogs, snails, cockroaches etc (already officially reported) spreading foreign diseases. Not so unlike the anuran fungal issues, we can expect that isnt a one off. If Covid was as important as we think, that should be a lesson right there on hygiene and maintenance.

We should be more diligent in this regard of spreading pathogens to the wild populations. I feel this is already well enough represented for most governments to take preventative measures. As a pet hobbyist, I dont like it! but as a person that at least attempts to be not bias, I think it is actually the right way forward because my pet hobbyist team has really only proven we arent responsible as an industry. I hate saying it, but it is also undeniably true regardless the good ones...the customer also plays a huge role, hen e why I dont breed and sell stuff anymore. the customers mistreating the animals after was too much for me. Too high a % of unethical/lazy folks. The literal reason I switched to agriculture and food, at least let the idiots eat clean hahahaha!!

Taiwan fails at things like economically important invasive species' escape. The most notable perhaps is the african land snail. but fish are another huge one. various other things are a problem, but probably also wont be "noticed" for another 5~10 years when they become a problem. Snails here eat away billions of dollars annually, that doesn't even look at pathogens and parasites. just direct damage. Countries like Canada that ban such animals, even they are too cold, I cant disagree with them. Proof is proof. looking at africanized bees and fire ants as examples, the realities of nature evolving coupled with the reality of a climate that constantly shifts, it is hard to really fault them for a preventative ban. at least when it comes to a so far proven irresponsible public. Taiwan would have far better food security and/or far less chemicals used in crop production without these invasive species. That affects us all, including our pets (many a colony has died off due to pesticides on the food).

Ironically I politicaly lean more towards libertarian rights with social infrastructure. so it seems like an oxymoron with my stance, I understand. I dont think these thoughts because I want to, more because there is just way too much evidence the public has abused its freedom and hasnt been responsible that even I have a hard time justifying it. Sometimes need to admit I am wrong and switch gears.

My second biggest worry is we now have escaped venomous species. scorpions always get out here. Snakes are kept in large numbers as well. and our environment can absolutely entertain the idea they become naturalized. Interestingly, our insa.ely industrialized and dense populations make it hard for larger species to get a grip. but once in the mountians, or small, it is irreversible. in a country that wont have medicine ready for serious bites, this can be a public health issue. Less so an issue of rock python ate Ms. li's purse dog, but more an issue of hiker got tagged by a king cobra in the mountains. at least we have good health care lol. counts for a lot, even our pollution hehe.

that worries me here, given our country's general disregard for prevention, safety, ecology and so on. It is always a knee jerk reaction. a band aid.

Singapore seems the polar opposite. ban everything and jail those that offend. I have little experience on animals there outside of photography (go there semi regularly, friends, work etc). But they seem more like a China that's aesthetically pleasing rather than an ideal situation. Moving forward, I feel there is a middle ground between oppressive country's governments like singapore and too much freedom/messy like Taiwan. Similar claims might be made amongst US states....Hawaii and Florida, for example, have vastly different invasive species issues. In that sense I feel it is easier to retain freedom and be responsible ast he people, rather than lose freedom and try to gain it back through government regulations being undone.

So, as a hobby that actually affects big industry and public health/safety, i hope we can be more professional in order to retain our privelage (it ain't a right!) to own such animals. If we keep crossing dangerous/expensive lines, it is quite hard to justify complaining that our "right" to keep XYZ animal was taken away. They just go on numbers and evidence provided. We can work to provide a more diligent data set I feel



Damn. sorry, that was meant to bea 2 sentence reply, turned into a rant. I apologize, but I stand by it

 

[Kada]

Do you know the old Chinese saying, roughly the Yaoguai and the Fēicháng kě'ài de living under the same roof?

To be fair, I think the invasive cockroaches in my house and the invasive snails on my farms are "super cute" as well. I may not be the best example of agreeing with that kind of short sighted saying haha . that's what I meant to write above lol, got distracted....

 

[The Snark]

@Kada I. Can. Relate. To. Every. Word. Unfortunately. Crap. I've bitten back about five tirades of my own and reread you post, either shaking my head sadly or an occasional Uh huh. Yup. Where the H does methodical concerted effort with long term goals come in? All knee jerk. Spur of the moment bright ideas thought out in milliseconds. And of course, where's the priority? MONEY. Cash crops. Millions of tons of rice a year puffing up politicans as they cater to cronyism and I've started ranting anyway.

A nice stupid. Slaughter the open bill storks. They damage rice crops. Then a voice in the wilderness with a slight grasp of biology managed to get his voice heard. Those birds are omnivores, do not eat vegetation as a rule and in fact help protect the rice crops because their favorite diet is snails! One small win. From rarely seeing an open bill in 2005, we now have flocks in the dozens grazing on snails out in the rice fields.

And about snails? Someone else put the word out and was ignored. Until some politician in the ministry of health noticed that was a serious loss of X finances from treating farmers for schistosomiasis. PING. Now the scroungers working the rivers wear plastic bags on their hands and throw the snails up on dry land to bake in the sun. The other parasitics infections of course dropped as well. But the motivation? Reduced financial burden from elderly farmers spending much of their golden years in welfare beds in the government ran hospitals.

Or, up in the hills. A large valley with about 50 family farms. I made the loop around the valley. Five different pesticides being combined and sprayed on everything and of course, no PPEs. Could somebody please tell those chemical company victims mix any two pesticides and all bets are off. Warnings, hazardous tags and directions for use are off the table. DeadIly and life threatening and cannot be proven otherwise. I renamed that place Poison Valley and swore off many locally grown veggies.
Cilantro! Hey, harmless tasty sprigs. European union banned the importantion from Thailand then domino, most of their other produce imports. Cilantro, 600 times the safe level of pesticides.

Hell. All cash crops take priority precedence over environmental protection and ecological issues, always. The river behind our house. I'll give it another year then I'll be able to walk across it without getting my feet wet. Wet rice the common crop. Back pack blowers throwing out tons of fertilizer, fields are flooded and drain back into the rivers. Can't even tell there is a river there now unless you know that hyacinth can only grow in water. Anybodies guess what has happened to the waterways ecosystems.

BTW, cobra vs average tourist out in the wilderness, I'm on O. Hannah's side.
Make My Millenium

 

[The Snark]

@Kada Apolgies for going off in tangents. The invasives aspect really merits a thread of it's own and with encroachment entering into the wash, public and private hidden agendas, environmental degradation, ecosystem destruction............. I'm going back to chess, analyzing and trying to second guess Magnus Carlsen. Much simpler and less chance of migraines. Wishing I was back in the redwoods with Earth First! with making a nuisance of ourselves the clear singular topic and objective.

 

[Wolfram1]

I honestly find your poits incredibly valuable, and sad because they just reaffirm what we all know is going on 24/7, year after year. Where are those long term, solution oriented regulations? They dont exist .

Amagator, show me how Carlsen took the clutch this time.

 

[The Snark]

Amagator, show me how Carlsen took the clutch this time.

Video about 20 minutes ago, Carlsen: Here, have a knight. And a rook! And a checkmate.

I have a great deal of difficulty addressing the environmental tragedy unfolding. In part, because of my traditional native mindset to wit: "You can't be serious! I'm waiting for someone to say 'joke!' and a mad scramble to repair the damage waiting in the wings. Humans and the planet. This is after all, Ophelia lying in that grave as two lovers grapple, trampling her body to prove their love of her. Guys, can we get real here? What are you standing on as you pursue your self serving interests?

 

[Kada]

Apologies for not replying, bad typhoon season where we live and havent had much mood for chatting lately. I feel very much the same as you guys. It can be quite saddening the amount of allowable ignorance and even intentional short sightedness. I have no solution's other than to try and better my own ways and discuss with people

On that note, back to it. we were clearing typhoon damage these days and the excavator ripped open a couple rotten trees. Out came one of my favourite Taiwanese roach species, Paranauphoeta formosana. This one is on my list to try, so far the adult doesnt seem to climb acrylic well. haven't played around with them too much, only see them once in a blue moon in the wild. Was a bit a problem with everyone working roping trees and the excavator waiting while i caught them and put them in a bottle haha.

Paranauphoeta formosana

I am still learning more and more about cockroaches. Any venture a guess as to gender of this one?

 

[SpookySpooder]

Looks to be female based on abdomen shape and size, but antenna are quite long.

REFERENCE IMAGE <--

 

[Kada]

Looks to be female based on abdomen shape and size, but antenna are quite long.

REFERENCE IMAGE <--

Cheers thanks! Certainly is my hope. Only have the 1 adult and a few youngins.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Cheers thanks! Certainly is my hope. Only have the 1 adult and a few youngins.

I hope you get a male for a pair those are amazing looking roaches .