Cleaning WC inverts to obtain clean colonies

[Ultum4Spiderz]

haha, it is indeed trying on the mind! but the diligence should be respected and frankly demanded in my opinion. I dont do much of the microscopy work thankfully. but when I do, I am very much grateful it isnt my day job! That is likely one of the things automation and computation is going to take over. Scanning and record keeping.

Reminds me of a few conversations with commercial cricket breeders in the states who said roughly the same thing as each other. Dont want crickets to become a human food ingredient, then our profits go way down, our scrutiny goes way up and we are basically on the margins of farmers. more profitable selling to less scrutinized industries at a fairly large markup compared to costs. The roach, centipede, toad and other such farms I have visited that sell to human consumption markets are quite grim out here in asia. back to the "I wouldnt feed that to my pets" level. I suppose it's easier ground up into pellets that get treated. but still, yuck.

I found that quite funny. and sadly, very true.

Going forward, the invertebrate farms I have seen in person for human consumption are far far below the standards I would consider for feeding my frogs. But then again, I would say the same about poultry raised for human consumption haha. we need to level up a bit I guess is the point

I just find it disturbing and gross that people eat giant centipede, tarantulas and other inverts .. and cruel .. so those people literally are going to be the cause of their extinction.

 

[The Snark]

people eat giant centipede, tarantulas and other inverts .. and cruel ..

Some are delicacies, some are treats, and to certain groups an important source of dietary protein - the rapidily reproducing insects. My wife recalls as kids they would hunt Ts and toss them into the evening cooking coals then quickly fish them out and scarf. Says they taste sort of nut like.
Compare such cruelty to say, the FDA only recently, under pressure from animal rights groups, passing a rule that chickens must be killed before de-feathering.

Me making a delivery at a food processing plant giving myself a tour. 40,000 chickens processed per hour there. So fast I saw the heart still beating during evisceration.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Some are delicacies, some are treats, and to certain groups an important source of dietary protein - the rapidily reproducing insects. My wife recalls as kids they would hunt Ts and toss them into the evening cooking coals then quickly fish them out and scarf. Says they taste sort of nut like.
Compare such cruelty to say, the FDA only recently, under pressure from animal rights groups, passing a rule that chickens must be killed before de-feathering.

Me making a delivery at a food processing plant giving myself a tour. 40,000 chickens processed per hour there. So fast I saw the heart still beating during evisceration.

Yeah I understand it’s their primary food source , slow growing animals will go extinct first . And the oceans are being eradicated of fish and sharks . Just India & China could eat enough food to eradicate many of these wild inverts as food sources . O well nothing can be done about it so I won’t worry that’s no less cruel than factory farms. You could easily argue factory farms are way crueler to animals but unless everyone goes vegan they aren’t going anywhere.
Just a fact 6billion + people could easily empty the oceans . Blue fin Tuna already near extinction , and there’s a popular show I watch we’re they catch them . Wicked tuna , so money always trumps forcing of extinction of wild life hence the dodo is gone also eaten by travelers. Survival of the fittest doesn’t apply to slow growing inverts being killed for a beef jerky sized snack . I don’t care so much about insects being eaten . That’s natural ..
As for the ocean who knows how long tuna will exist , That’s another topic. Canned tuna is about all Ive had, I’ve never had blu fin or anything.

 

[The Snark]

Survival of the fittest

The richest is top priority. Speaking of which they are busy hacking up EPA rules as I type this.

As for the ocean

Ocean temperatures along the coast of Florida in places got up to 90 F yesterday.

 

[Kada]

I just find it disturbing and gross that people eat giant centipede, tarantulas and other inverts .. and cruel .. so those people literally are going to be the cause of their extinction.

Sure. I wonder the same about people that eat shrimp, clams and snails

People eat nearly everything, different cultures have weird stuff. Cheese, stinky tofu, that rotten fish thing in Scandinavia etc. there is some funky stuff everywhere hehe. hygiene is what's what's important (as well as conservation, ecology and pollution etc). Same with pet food, we want clean food

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Sure. I wonder the same about people that eat shrimp, clams and snails

People eat nearly everything, different cultures have weird stuff. Cheese, stinky tofu, that rotten fish thing in Scandinavia etc. there is some funky stuff everywhere hehe. hygiene is what's what's important (as well as conservation, ecology and pollution etc). Same with pet food, we want clean food

yeah snails/slugs fish eggs super gross .. yet people eat that.
conservation organizations don’t have a standing army thus forth can’t stop poachers usually . But some do . And nothing is protected by the government until its numbers are so low they practically extinct already . One state said it was going to cull all its wild population of wolfs .
rotten fish thing in Scandinavia no thanks !! Eww gross … I’d rather eat a grilled cheese sandwich .

 

[SpookySpooder]

The richest is top priority. Speaking of which they are busy hacking up EPA rules as I type this.


Ocean temperatures along the coast of Florida in places got up to 90 F yesterday.

Ocean temps have held at 101° off the coast.

Also, it's been so hot in Arizona that hundred year old cacti are dying off.

Welcome to the accelerated collapse--the brink of no return, the decimation of entire ecosystems

 

[The Snark]

Welcome to the accelerated collapse--the brink of no return, the decimation of entire ecosystems

Welcome to armageddon or Ragnarok or whatever the religoids and fanatics want to call it. Only it's mankinds own devising. But I'm a practical cynic who has bailed out the brain farters during my stints in emergency services for decades. The good old, it can't happen to me! mindset / syndrome. As long as everything is poofy happy and the appliances and air con works it's smooth sailing and ignore the mess behind that curtain. And that dazed amazed dumbfounded look on peoples faces when it actually does happen to them.

From a scientific perspective, that is probably going to be the wake up call. Ocean temperatures, mass die offs, water shortages, floods, all happening somewhere else to somebody else. A collective 'isn't happening to me' mind set. It's going to have to get up in the individuals faces one by one for the message to get across. Have to swim to your car. The air con works fine, but the power cuts off on the really hot days. The brush fire in the back yard gets so hot the swimming pool developed leaks.
Then people, one by one, will start thinking those bought and paid for politicians were blowing sunshine up our wazoos and things are definitely not all sunshine and roses.

Want the message to really get up in a lot of peoples faces? Let that southwest heatwave hit the beef stock yards for a couple of weeks. MEAT SHORTAGE? No hamburgers and hot dogs?? FIX THIS, NOW! Who cares if the animal and health protection folks say you can't process meat from an animal already dead. I want my McDoucheburgers! I'd call my billionaire congressman but he's probably busy with more important matters like backroom megabucks deals for the next president to rubber stamp.

 

[Wolfram1]

So this is just what my friends advised, and do when they get new imports, nothing that guarantees foodsafety!

First off all they mentioned that choosing a live bearing one isn't the best choice if that is the goal.

But when they get one in they are not really worried about internal parasites, as most of them ether kill the roaches, which is why quarantene is important so it doesn't spread, or they spend parts of their livecycle outside the roach, which doesn't matter too much in the end since those will not survive throughout the generations. Anything else that comes in and is part of the microbiota of the roaches is more likely to be beneficial to them or at least doesn't impede the keeping of a roach colony. Again this doesn't mean its food safe.

Next to the initial quarantene careful observation of their behavior is required!

However, if it is being done, this is what this thread is about. what is their procedure for creating clean cultures? Personally, I do not have great faith in the "observe and cull" method, as that is not really creating any sense of assurance, rather just praying for luck. Quarantine is easy of the main specimen being raised, but their pathogens and parasites may not be so easily contained. What actual procedures do folks follow for this important step?

Anything that comes in has to be inspected for external parasites and treated if required.The "Observe and Cull" Method should always be a part of the procedure, but should never be the only thing. Especially important, if the entire colony shows signs of unexpected premature deaths, you may need to bin it and start over.

Also important is only feeding them Food made for human consumtion as the quality check on these products is usually better. And to keep them as dry and sterile as possible while still providing all the roaches need. never allowing any one place to stay constantly moist for example. Here in Austria it is also usually safe to use the dried leaf litter of our decidious forests as these roaches are not natives and there arent all that many parasites that could potentially find their way in. Again not something that aligns with food safe roaches.

Opisthoplatia orientalis
They burrow unfortunately. They are medium/large, essentially like a dubia in size and general habit but slightly wider. Unfortunately they are decent climbers.

They mentioned this species hase a huge range and is almost always accompanied by Phoridae flies in cultivation. Have you observed this as well? They were not sure if the roaches themselves may have brought them in as external hichhikers, possibly symbiotic or more likely to me, simply opportunistic hichhikers because the roaches prefer a heavily protein rich diet and the flies do too.

Rhabdoblatta sp. (?) - Not confirmed ID, still waiting for more specimens.
These guys remind me slightly of Suriname roaches. Less keen on these now due to flying and climbing. But pretty nonetheless.

Not sure what these are, just got them. Will see what they grow up as. Quite possibly young Opisthoplatia orientalis. But they don't climb, and act nearly identical to dubia.

My friends grouped these two, just from seeing the pictures, roughly into the subfamily Epilamprinae, again we didn't spend much time on this and i think you probably identified them to a narrower margin already.


I think those articles you linked already go into more detail than any precautions my friends take, theirs are pet roaches, part of a collection and not ment for consumption. As long as they reach adulthood, breed and reproduce in numbers they are happy.

 

[The Snark]

that rotten fish thing in Scandinavia

Surströmming. If your feeders or critters smelled like that you'd bin the lot. Hate it till I ate it stuff. Fermented, a euphemism for very dead and rotting things from the sea.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Surströmming. If your feeders or critters smelled like that you'd bin the lot. Hate it till I ate it stuff. Fermented, a euphemism for very dead and rotting things from the sea.

My god Surströmming looks gross like something you bait sharks with . Haha ..
must suck living in a state or nation you can’t use dubia roaches. I Imagine keeping American cockroach as feeders those can infest because dubia are illegal.

 

[The Snark]

Welcome to the accelerated collapse--the brink of no return, the decimation of entire ecosystems

The H with the allergy warnings and carbon neutral blowfests. Waiting patiently for a new product warning label: Environmental damage and depredation rating. EOLAWKI time frame. End Of Life As We Know It.

 

[Kada]

Surströmming. If your feeders or critters smelled like that you'd bin the lot. Hate it till I ate it stuff. Fermented, a euphemism for very dead and rotting things from the sea.

I believe people that say it tastes good. many a stinky thing can taste good. for me though, my nose wont let my mouth open! But to each their own. I'm glad it exists.

 

[MariaLewisia]

Surströmming. If your feeders or critters smelled like that you'd bin the lot. Hate it till I ate it stuff. Fermented, a euphemism for very dead and rotting things from the sea.

A casual mention of surströmming was the last thing I thought I'd stumble upon in this thread. I've never tasted it myself, but if the opportunity arose I would! I've never eaten lutfisk (literally lye fish, fish soaked in lye) either. But I do eat a lot of creamed caviar out of tubes! It's really good on crispbread.
Also fun fact: us Swedes defend our fermented fish by pointing the finger at Iceland and their hákarl and saying "at least we don't eat rotten shark like those guys".

 

[Wolfram1]

A casual mention of surströmming was the last thing I thought I'd stumble upon in this thread. I've never tasted it myself, but if the opportunity arose I would! I've never eaten lutfisk (literally lye fish, fish soaked in lye) either. But I do eat a lot of creamed caviar out of tubes! It's really good on crispbread.
Also fun fact: us Swedes defend our fermented fish by pointing the finger at Iceland and their hákarl and saying "at least we don't eat rotten shark like those guys".

not to mention the stinkier the cheese the better usually
especially with alpine hard-cheese from France, Switzeland or Austria

 

[The Snark]

Yummy tangent this thread goest. Surströmming is quite tasty, as long as they don't salt the bejeezus out of it. Along the same lines as the strong+aromatic cheeses, an acquired taste.
But let's not go stirring up the ancient Icelandic Swede cuisine rivalry when the countries are separated by Haggis.

 

[Wolfram1]

Haggis are awesome, but to be fair it was at a tiny shop on a scottish beach that was surrounded by Sheepfarmers.

The two items on the menu: Haggis or Fish & Chips, never had better of ether.

 

[The Snark]

The two items on the menu: Haggis or Fish & Chips, never had better of ether.

Honestly I didn't mind the aroma or flavor of Haggis. But it's loaded with fat which makes me want to make pavement pizzas.

 

[Kada]

So this is just what my friends advised, and do when they get new imports, nothing that guarantees foodsafety!

First off all they mentioned that choosing a live bearing one isn't the best choice if that is the goal.

Amazing, thanks for your very well thought out reply, and your friends assistance as well. Much appreciated!

I agree that live bearing may be harder to get clean. Honestly the main selections are body mass, climbing and flying ability (rather, lack of both) being preferred.

I see live bearing as being more problematic as far as parasites and pathogens go as well. However I prefer them as it seems less likely to escape captivity. It is a reason i dont keep many phasmids now, eggs can so easily escape notice. I normally contain and burn everything i dispose of from "bugs" in general, but the risk is still there moreso than missing a living roach or the survival of such. That's really the only plus I have on them, plus usually a substrate is as essential.

Certainly though, it is a much easier and surer way of breaking pathogen cycles. I am not strictly married to the idea of live bearers only, the other requirements for my own purposes are priority.

But when they get one in they are not really worried about internal parasites, as most of them ether kill the roaches, which is why quarantene is important so it doesn't spread, or they spend parts of their livecycle outside the roach, which doesn't matter too much in the end since those will not survive throughout the generations. Anything else that comes in and is part of the microbiota of the roaches is more likely to be beneficial to them or at least doesn't impede the keeping of a roach colony. Again this doesn't mean its food safe.

This is something I am interested to learn more about, as I am not so sure that is necessarily the case. For example one of the articles above talks about different worms in cockroaches. I can see various worm species not really needing a crazy life cycle and them repeating infection. I worry more about this with roaches as it is believed some species of roach need the feces of the adults to kick start their gut biota. this is one aspect I have more concern about as they may well need the fecal matter, but that is direct transition if various parasites. I thought up some weird and wonderful containers that have mesh floor to allow feces go down, but this would be a problem for the babies that may benefit from such material. But I am still learning more about this aspect of cockroach development in general.

Anything that comes in has to be inspected for external parasites and treated if required.The "Observe and Cull" Method should always be a part of the procedure, but should never be the only thing. Especially important, if the entire colony shows signs of unexpected premature deaths, you may need to bin it and start over.

Also important is only feeding them Food made for human consumtion as the quality check on these products is usually better. And to keep them as dry and sterile as possible while still providing all the roaches need. never allowing any one place to stay constantly moist for example. Here in Austria it is also usually safe to use the dried leaf litter of our decidious forests as these roaches are not natives and there arent all that many parasites that could potentially find their way in. Again not something that aligns with food safe roaches.

Absolutely. observe and cull is par for the course. I meant nothing.negative by it, simply that is isnt enough I think observe and react is always a constant part of any animals husbandry, 24/7.

The food thing is also a real issue. Luckily, I am in the food and.agricukture business selling ingredients to pet and human food markets. so we operate some organic farms that go through the hoops. I feed all my animals from that farm. We actually have a new egg plant variety that we are feed to all our animals that eat "feuit" with massive success.

But this is a thing I was thinking about today making some isopod collections at one of our farms. As you mentioned, outdoor things are unknown. I was thinking especially isopod wood and.leaf litter that comes in rotten. In culture, I usually soak, freeze, boil anything like leaves/wood etc. not worried about.mold usually, which such cell destruction usually promotes rather than avoids. but it hopefully kills all the animals living inside. Food we usually use human grade organic from the farms. we have lots of things that dont meet size standards so I usually nab a few from the "juice grades" hehe. I also dry and powder my own pet foods, including cockroach meal. but that's maybe off topic. the main point is avoiding the parasites. we heat treat our home made dry foods for our fish.

Unlike Austria, here in Taiwan it is hot and humid, and there are some real parasites to be wary of! Regardless, even animals escape here they basically thrive. We have a similar issue as florida, maybe less extreme due to less herp folks about, in regards to invasive species. We just dont get winters like florida. So it is a serious risk, the government now is starting to get involved because the pet trade has been so irresponsible. We now have strict import regulations on 8000ish news species because of irresponsible folks and escapees

note, I am not intending to have humans eating cockroaches, rather just attempting to achieve that level of quality control as a standard

They mentioned this species hase a huge range and is almost always accompanied by Phoridae flies in cultivation. Have you observed this as well? They were not sure if the roaches themselves may have brought them in as external hichhikers, possibly symbiotic or more likely to me, simply opportunistic hichhikers because the roaches prefer a heavily protein rich diet and the flies do too.

My friends grouped these two, just from seeing the pictures, roughly into the subfamily Epilamprinae, again we didn't spend much time on this and i think you probably identified them to a narrower margin already.

Thanks for the help on ID. I am slightly less concerned with identification at the moment as we are essentially just screening for habits and lifestyles, then refining the selection based on body, feeding and enclosure types preferred. We have many contacts in various biology fields we can ask for assistance once we have chosen. I'm sure that wont be an issue Aprreciate your time to take a look as well!

Flies I have indeed noticed. I did not identify them as I witnessed maggots in deceased specimens. I dumped the whole lot as soon as they were observed haha. I am hoping the younger ones photographed above are the same species and perhaps wont have this issue. so far they are looking good and feeding well

I think those articles you linked already go into more detail than any precautions my friends take, theirs are pet roaches, part of a collection and not ment for consumption. As long as they reach adulthood, breed and reproduce in numbers they are happy.

To be fair, so far all the articles I have read have not discussed in detail their procedures as this thread intends to discuss. they mention they do take extreme care, but the mention of actual operating procedures and protocols are quite limited. I am still searching

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss. I find it quite beneficial to brainstorm with others on any given subject

 

[Kada]

Here is our staple "wet food" we give everybody. roaches, crickets, isopods, millipedes etc. A type of eggplant.

About tennis ball sized, cut in half. this is 1 day after.

I am not sure if I am right in thinking this, but as the seeds arent eaten I like to leave them there as a part of their substrate as they dont mold. I basically dont use a substrate proper. lust leaves. the bottom quickly fills with these seeds and roach poop. Big Leaf Mahogany leaves for referrence .