Cecil the Lion

[The Snark]

I'm giving everyone a WARNING before hand. This thread isn't for venting your spleen, philosophy, or righteous indignation.

Cecil was pursued for many hours before being taken down by a gun. Hmm. I'm going to have to compliment the US Fish and Game for getting something right here.

Coming back into camp on foot I thought I saw a deer running odd. Three legged. I went in it's general direction and found a blood trail. So I get back into camp and ask the hunters if anyone had shot at a deer. One hunter said he had missed a shot and mentioned about the right area. I went and saddled his horse then came back to the cabin and told him he hadn't missed and to get his ass out there and finish the job. He refused. It was sun down, the animal had an hour head start and so on. After I fired a shot into the dirt at his feet he changed his mind. Still holding my gun unholstered I escorted him to his horse and told him find the animal. He was pissed off max and took off down the mountain.

Bright and early the next day the helicopter came in with a F&G cop and a sheriff. Had I assaulted someone with a gun? I ran the entire scenario down to them as I was saddling up to go find the deer. They turned and got back in the chopper. I searched for about an hour before finding the wounded doe. She had a faun with her so hadn't been able to go far. I had to put both down.

Back down on the desert 2 days later and on into town. My buddy, a sour taciturn old grouch and retired CHP came up to me grinning like the Cheshire cat. F&G met the hunter at the Sheriff office and handed him a $5,000 ticket. Then the SO arrested him and locked him up for cruelty to animals.

There's a pretty thin line between responsible sportsman and a flaming ***hole.

 

[dredrickt]

So you discharged a weapon at a person and committed kidnapping....in a story where the point was being "responsible." I'm having a very hard time believing this. You would have been arrested if it went down that way.

 

[pitbulllady]

So you discharged a weapon at a person and committed kidnapping....in a story where the point was being "responsible." I'm having a very hard time believing this. You would have been arrested if it went down that way.

Unless I'm mistaken, this incident would have occurred many years ago, and was out west. The politically-correct agenda has not yet taken hold, and people had a very different mentality back then. Even where I live, back east in South Carolina, 20-30 years ago, had a hunter refused to go find a wounded animal and had someone fired a warning shot at him for motivation, the law would have sided with the person firing the motivating shot, and the "hunter" would have been arrested. People didn't freak out over guns back then the way that they do now, and such an incident would have been deemed "justifiable discharge of a firearm".

pitbulllady

 

[ratluvr76]

So you discharged a weapon at a person and committed kidnapping....in a story where the point was being "responsible." I'm having a very hard time believing this. You would have been arrested if it went down that way.

He didn't discharge a firearm at anyone... He discharged a firearm NEAR someone. Also, to be quite honest the hunter had it coming.

Also, where was the kidnapping??

 

[The Snark]

I'm not justifying myself. What I did was technically a criminal act I'm not proud of. I'm also a hunter who knows the thrill of stalking game. Squeezing off that shot. Not proud of that either.

But there is something responsible hunters all have close to their hearts and constantly in their minds. That hair fine line between sportsman and sadist. That 100th of a second between a clean kill and cruelly maiming an animal. I believe I can speak for thousands of hunters when I say we hate the latter. Despise it and come to despise ourselves if we cause it. The F&G and sheriff were no doubt both hunters. They knew the cold fury I must have been in. And we all feel that cold fury when we read about incidents like Cecil and how that hunter grossly crossed that line.

Many bow hunters carry a back up firearm. Often this is in violation of the law. That's a part of the sport. If you get caught you take the rap and pay the fine. At least you didn't cause a slow painful death.


PS Yes, PBL, spot on. But that mentality is still prevalent today in many places. Walk into the average midwest bar and mention accidentally maiming and animal then shrugging it off. What do you think the reaction would be?

 

[dredrickt]

He didn't discharge a firearm at anyone... He discharged a firearm NEAR someone. Also, to be quite honest the hunter had it coming.

Also, where was the kidnapping??

Firing at someones feet (even without intending to hit them) counts in the eyes of the law as attempting to shoot them. No, he wouldn't have been charged with something insane like attempted murder, because his intent was to intimidate, so most likely aggravated assault. Still against the law. Many of the circles of hunters I've been in contact with would have drawn weapons on him and disarmed him for purposely firing a weapon at a person to make a point. Hunter safety is the number 1 priority of every group I've ever interacted with. To be fair, failing to pursue an injured animal probably would have drawn others to action as well, but most likely kicked him out of any groups, or reporting the incident so they didn't end up being blamed for roaming injured game.

Kidnapping is not defined under the law as many think it is. Transporting someone against their will is kidnapping, also, in this instance, forcible compulsion to transport- intimidating someone with the threat of shooting them to transport (getting on the horse and riding away).

---------- Post added 08-06-2015 at 06:45 PM ----------

I'm not justifying myself. What I did was technically a criminal act I'm not proud of. I'm also a hunter who knows the thrill of stalking game. Squeezing off that shot. Not proud of that either.

But there is something responsible hunters all have close to their hearts and constantly in their minds. That hair fine line between sportsman and sadist. That 100th of a second between a clean kill and cruelly maiming an animal. I believe I can speak for thousands of hunters when I say we hate the latter. Despise it and come to despise ourselves if we cause it. The F&G and sheriff were no doubt both hunters. They knew the cold fury I must have been in. And we all feel that cold fury when we read about Cecil and how that hunter grossly crossed that line.

Many bow hunters carry a back up firearm. Often this is in violation of the law. That's a part of the sport. If you get caught you take the rap and pay the fine. At least you didn't cause a slow painful death.

Thank you for clearing that up. I hate playing devils advocate, but that whole post almost seemed like gloating that you broke the law to make a point to someone else who broke the law. Then it comes down to a matter of morals and philosophy, and those are very muddy waters.

 

[The Snark]

I really dislike recalling that incident. I disliked relating it. But I figured since I brought it up I should relate the entire scenario including emotions.

 

[The Snark]

The opposite

On a more positive side of things

Another wake up call by helicopter. They have a missing hiker that was seen waving for help by a glider pilot about sundown. He was on the crest of the ridge.

Well, to clue you. The country around Whitney on the east side is a whole lot of up and down. The desert is around 4500 feet while the ridge averages around 10,000, often only 5 miles distant as the crow flies. It's broken rocky and shale scree, sandstone, decomposed granite and about as hospitable as the moon in places with lots of 500 foot rolling drops.

So this guy headed out first thing in the AM to get a deer. He spotted one in a brake and took a shot. The deer did the bat out of hell thing up a canyon. The guy thought he might have winged it so he took off after it. After about 6 solid hours of slog he topped the ridge, and an hour of searching he caught up with his deer. It was about then the glider pilot spotted him.

Well, the guy knew the area well. Getting on towards dark. On the east side is all that down stuff, box canyons, loose crap offering no footing and so on. On the west side is the high country. He knew he could find water there, a place to camp, and the forestry service had a fire road down in the valley a few miles west. So he headed down the gentle slopes, found water, made camp and had a venison dinner.

I told the chopper people I'd cover the high country side. I knew the country very well and had a good idea how to cover most of it in a day. I'd do the thick brush and tree line and leave the canyons and drops to the chopper. I got up into the general area and fired off a shot. A mile later I fired another shot. The horse, radar ears, heard a return shot a little while later and took me straight to the guy.

The guy was none the worse for wear though the deer he was dragging was. It was bald from being dragged about 5 miles. Had a dinner shaped chunk cut out of it too. His rifle was in worse shape than the deer. A brand new Weatherby it looked like it had been on the losing side in WW I. The butt was chewed to hell and gone, a few inches ground off it.

As we rode double +deer down towards my camp he explained. He was almost certain he had winged to deer. Following the sportsman's code he went after it. Well, deer are just as good as mountain goats. It went straight up the side of a canyon and so on. At one point he got into near precipice and had to use the butt of his rifle to pound foot and hand holds. It was around there that he dropped the rifle. Back down a couple hundred feet to get it. The scope had got busted off and was gone. He finally topped the ridge, found his deer and took it open sight. By then it was around 17:00. He saw the glider and hailed it then made the decision to head west.

He was very apologetic to me for the inconvenience. About the time we got to my camp the chopper came by and collected him. He apologized to them too. His wife, only married a few weeks, had gone into major panic mode when he hadn't come back late afternoon and probably called every rescue operation from Tehachapi to Mammoth. He pointed out to me the nick on the deers chest, pretty trivial, but was philosophical about it. Couldn't be helped. He winged it, he had to bring it down, period. Even if he ended up turning a $2000 rifle into junk, scare the zots out of your wife and spending a night at 40 degrees with only a light jacket, you do everything you can as fast as you can to put that animal out of it's misery.

 

[Amoeba]

Living here and Florida and being a native cracker really gets me hot about irresponsible use of natural resources. I am a pretty avid fisherman, albeit a bad one, but I am out constantly seeing the worst of the outdoors.

I watch boats tear through the no wake zone of the local lake and have the audacity to smile and wave at me like we're all peaches and sunshine.

If you're going to kill anything you best make use of it. All the non-native fish that I pull around here all get buried and used for fertilizer instead of thrown back. The only fish that I've put back into the water dead was a legal sized trout that got bitten in half by a shark while hanging from a stringer.

This was my haul from a trip up and back a local river. Not pictured is a 9' board.
Exhibit A

Here is a local canal. Note the 3/4ths of a Tilapia
Exhibit B

And I don't know if any body has seen this piece but it's a interesting perspective on this whole lion situation:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html?_r=0


Oh and I am into bugs again....

 

[dementedlullaby]

This was my haul from a trip up and back a local river. Not pictured is a 9' board.
Exhibit A

Here is a local canal. Note the 3/4ths of a Tilapia
Exhibit B

Reminds me of the lake near me. I go up there and routinely clean the fishing wire and other crap people leave behind. Especially left over line just left in a pile really annoys me. There's a garbage can within 30 feet but alas, too hard for idiots to use.

 

[pitbulllady]

I'm not justifying myself. What I did was technically a criminal act I'm not proud of. I'm also a hunter who knows the thrill of stalking game. Squeezing off that shot. Not proud of that either.

But there is something responsible hunters all have close to their hearts and constantly in their minds. That hair fine line between sportsman and sadist. That 100th of a second between a clean kill and cruelly maiming an animal. I believe I can speak for thousands of hunters when I say we hate the latter. Despise it and come to despise ourselves if we cause it. The F&G and sheriff were no doubt both hunters. They knew the cold fury I must have been in. And we all feel that cold fury when we read about incidents like Cecil and how that hunter grossly crossed that line.

Many bow hunters carry a back up firearm. Often this is in violation of the law. That's a part of the sport. If you get caught you take the rap and pay the fine. At least you didn't cause a slow painful death.


PS Yes, PBL, spot on. But that mentality is still prevalent today in many places. Walk into the average midwest bar and mention accidentally maiming and animal then shrugging it off. What do you think the reaction would be?

The same thing that would happen here in the South-the dirt bag doing acting casual about shooting and maiming an animal would get beaten to a pulp! Real hunters do not hate animals, but they do hate to see an animal suffer. That's something that anti-hunters cannot grasp. They don't hunt deer or ducks or whatever because of animosity towards those animals, and the money that they put into buying licenses, guns, etc., goes to support conservation efforts. These same people, men and women, who know the thrill of that kill will also risk their own lives to save a deer that's stuck in quick mud or tangled in an old fence. Hunters today have to be especially aware of the anti-hunting lobby, and the backlash against all hunting and fishing, and anyone who adds fuel to that fire isn't going to find any friends among the real hunters.

pitbulllady

 

[viper69]

I love fishing and throw back everything I catch.

People that hunt animals purely for trophies should be scooped up and hunted themselves. This lion killer is a perfect example of the type of person I consider to be genetic garbage.

There's nothing impressive to me about killing an animal just because one can, particularly when one uses technology, such as a gun, bow, helicopter etc.

I think people who get a rush about killing these "trophy" animals ought to hunt the most dangerous animal on Earth: man.

 

[Tim Benzedrine]

I think part of the reason for those laws is to prevent unethical hunters from shooting game and then sticking an arrow in the wound to make it seem it had been taken with a bow. Easily detected, but I'm sure it has been tried and gotten away with. Not judging whether that is a justification of having the law in place, just an observation.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Now i don't want to talk about ethics, hunt, weapons, laws etc but only about what happened to Cecil.. and Zimbabwe. I doubt that a filthy, vile act like this one could have happened if Rhodesia was still Rhodesia, and not Zimbabwe, a nation turned from a rich with great standards like European nations status into one of extreme poverty within 10 years, a sort of fair where a deranged, evil madman named Mugabe rules.
Selous Scouts would have beated the hell out of that dentists and his priced thugs in no time.

 

[The Snark]

I'm afraid of not being understandable here so I ask you to bear with me.

I feel disqualified from weighing in on a major aspect of all this: trophy hunting. Before the righteous indignation sets in I wish people to keep in mind this as a legitimate and very common aspect of hunting.

I packed some hunters into the high country. Being my usual flippant and self centered I had mentioned a magnificent buck I had spotted several times up on a nearby mountain. A couple of days later a hunter came back to the cabin in the evening and told me I was right. "13 points! That's going over my fireplace!" He then handed me a $50 bill as a bonus. So I got them fed and settled for the evening and went for a ride to try and sort things in my mind. Things like his fireplace vs knowing that beautiful animal was gracing that section of high country. 1+1=3. Many years later I'm still coming up with 3. But that is a major motivator of hunters. As common as beating the snot out of a fellow hunter for leaving a wounded animal.

It seems to me if a person doesn't understand and go along with this trophy taking aspect, which is very legitimate, they can't give a fully neutral and objective opinion of Cecil killers. I've never taken a trophy. Never felt that made any sense. Maybe I didn't have the right wall or fireplace to hang one?

Does this make any sense?

 

[Galapoheros]

Trophy hunting doesn't make sense to me but at the same time, I kind of understand it making sense to others. It's as though I say in my mind, "I think I understand why you do that, but the reason I think you want to do it isn't reasonable to me." I personally wonder if many of these people have deeper anger issues that they haven't dealt with, not in touch with, maybe something to do with a parent or some other semi-traumatic event early in their life, needing to prove something having to do with ego. But then there might be something about their mind that I just don't understand. So I'm not going to protest against trophy hunting, I will only give somebody that favors trophy hunting my point of view about it if they ask. If they want to continue trophy hunting after I explain why it doesn't make sense to me, well I'm done with it, I don't think about them doing it or not doing it. When I go fishing and catch more than others, it doesn't mean much to me yet I can see others there fishing feeling like they lost. I don't feel a strong feeling of winning, I just caught some fish. I understand the competitive angle of it but it's a very tiny thing to me. If I catch less fish than others, it doesn't stay on my mind at all. But I know people that would obsess over the number of fish caught for daaaaaays. It's kind of frustrating in a way, also kind of sad to me they think it is that important because it can be a sign of opposition, a barrier. It has a lot to do with insecurities and comparing. Many people seem to compare and worry about being "less". Instead, when I compare, I use it for inspiration and learning. When I started thinking that way, my world opened up, no more getting down, no more depression, no more worry, no more wondering, 'who am I', ....just reality. That clicked 15-20 years ago. Funny thing is that I got better at all the things I liked to do because the mental blocks left, for the most part. Before that, I didn't know what "be yourself" meant. A person could keep explaining it over and over and over again but I think it's one of those things a person has to snap to from inside. Anyway, I leave others alone about trophy hunting because of all that, but if it comes up, I will take the opportunity to explain why it makes no sense to me, up to them after that.

 

[windscorpions1]

Imo I think the whole cecil the lion thing is pretty stupid. If I recall right I read something that said that most people actually from Zimbabwe could care less about the lion. So my question was why are we raging about it over here? In all honestly who really cares? It just seems like a stupid internet thing, in two weeks people will have for got all about it. The guy paid his cash to go take a lion, if he illegally took it or anything else thats on him over in Zimbabwe. Really all this lion things doing is getting people riled up at us hunters. I would doubt it but I hope that this doesn't effect the outfitters for African hunts because that is a huge source of income down there for some people.

 

[Najakeeper]

Everytime I come to this thread I want to write so much but I stop myself just because I don't want to start another meaningless discussion about hunting and guns in general. Especially in an environment where a lot of people from the US are contributors. My views on the subject is shared by most Europeans but they would be seen as "radical" by 50% of the Americans.

Anyway, my only hope is that this "poacher" gets the punishment, which current legal systems allow.

 

[viper69]

Everytime I come to this thread I want to write so much but I stop myself just because I don't want to start another meaningless discussion about hunting and guns in general. Especially in an environment where a lot of people from the US are contributors. My views on the subject is shared by most Europeans but they would be seen as "radical" by 50% of the Americans.

Anyway, my only hope is that this "poacher" gets the punishment, which current legal systems allow.

I hear ya Naja, in a gun crazy country where children were slaughtered in a school and the elected politicians did nothing, and other states think people should be allowed to bring guns into a bar (because no one ever starts a fight in a bar) you can't expect anything of substance to happen over anything that is gun related.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

If I recall right I read something that said that most people actually from Zimbabwe could care less about the lion.

This.
Mugabe killed lot of Whites, former Rhodesia farmers on daily basis until yesterday.. he killed his, technically, people.. using his personal, crypto mix of "African commie militia". No one rised against. Globalized West is silent.
Obviously now he act as the offended one for Cecil's facts. It's normal.
That's the reasons for my previous comment. I have nothing against hunt, or even hunt trophy if they are achieved fair enough. My Grandfather, a great man, was a skilled boar and hare hunter here in the North part of the boot. My uncle (part of my Mother's family are American citizens) had a lot of hunt trophy, collected in decades, in his Cali home.
But one thing is hunt for "eat" (hey, after all, "strangely" no cultural marxists blamed the Native Americans for hunting, no?) or sport if rules are followed, one thing is live (here hunt) using the nasty attitude of "Hey, i'm rich. I'm a citizen of one of the most (if not the most) rich and advanced countries in the world. You not. I have money for that.. thus i can do what i want in your third world, no one knows about, land."
The rest is up to a no law, grotesque fair country named Zimbabwe, leaded by a twisted psycho.
Ends of the story. That's one of the reason why i stated that, if Rhodesia, as a proud nation, wasn't betrayed by the West, back then, things like this one could never happen.
I mean, i can take the first airplane tomorrow, and go to USA midwest, or Russia, or former Jugoslavia for hunt or fishing.. but i guess i can't hunt protected species, or a national animal symbol, so easily, no matter if i have the money for that.
What happened to Cecil is what happened to Rhodesia, once a high level African nation, turned Zimbabwe, a sad joke. It's not the hunter passport who means, honestly, but what happened to a strong, once proud country, what means.
Fear that if "they" continue to push the politically correct agenda what happened to Rhodesia will happen to the whole west/europe. Just my two cents.