Can You

[ShadowBlade]

Ummm, you can eat yourself to death. Even too much of a good thing is a bad thing, like an entire bathtub full of baked beans, yea you'll throw up eventually but i bet if you shoved it down quick enough you'll have the same problem that sean seems to be fearing, inreased tension on the surface increases likelyhood of rupture....

I will call you on that. I do not think you can eat yourself to death with normal food. As long as you don't use the help of other substances, or prevent the digestion system in any way. And there is a difference between human and Arthropod digestion, something we haven't even gotten into..... yet

This is an interesting debate you all, it really is.:worship:

Very interesting, no doubt.

-Sean

 

[moose35]

Well, I can't quote you from my own quote, so I'll address each of your reply's in number.

#1 "exactly it fell cause you caused it to fall...most babies fall(no pun inteded again) to predators. birds, lizards, ect ect.."
i used the word fall here and i should of used the word eaten and made that comment more simple for youThen why are you saying to remove 'falling' from the discussion? It happens. If we were to take all physical events from our lives in discussion and views, alot more things would be legal, and a lot more people would be dead.
you yourself said you caused it to fall right?? i'm saying to remove human error from this little equation. ok so lets say your a responsible keeper and you prevent escapes as you said is a cause and falling...the skinnest of T's can escape and get hurt and fall and injure themselves..but i myself prevent escapes...and falls...and how in any way does falling have to be with being unhealthy. i could easily fall any day of the week and die. does that make me unhealthy?? or could it be a human error that caused me to fall??
2# "right on that point also people have died from over-hydrating"
I'm pretty sure 'over-hydrating' causes what I said. Not having too much water in the stomach.
thats what i said. whats the debate here? i know for a fact that people have died overhydrating during sports and also some people have died drinking too much water too fast to try to pass a drug test. so yea thats a fact.
3# do you want pictures and a study done? i'll do it just for you. i'm serious.

You guys were the ones asking for proof.

did you not ask for proof in 1 of your earlier posts??
you said this...."""""I'm sorry, but you're using flawed logic. You want evidence for my side, yet you provide none. Provide evidence that they stop at a healthy limit. That serves optimum running conditions for the body. Prove this.""""""
that was written by you...




4#where did you get this proof?...again your talking about falling. what physics?"

Falling has been my entire argument from the beginning. It is the only thing I've been arguing. Why can't I use it? What proof would you like? That heavier things transfer more energy upon impact? That it takes more resilience to resist rupture in something containing higher pressures of liquid?
actualy your argument started out as it being that an over fed is unhealthy. then your added the falling part and the escaping part to try to make yourself sound right.
5# "what species?? as in captivity they stop eating till they are full. not saying this is 1 feeding it may take several months...THEN THEY STOP EATING."

Why do they stop eating then? Is that the optimum condition for them? I do have news for you guys, animals do not always 'do what's best for them'.
Shall I start listing animals that will eat to obesity if given the chance? The monkey that won't quit smoking? Insects that gorge themselves on pesticides?
first of all we are talking about T's. i could care less about a smoking monkey right now. again...THEY STOP EATING BECAUSE THEY ARE FULL. i really don't understand what is so difficult about that. what are a t's optimum conditions??

-Sean

again same deal....could someone teach me how to quote a message in parts????
\

moose

 

[ShadowBlade]

#1 "i used the word fall here and i should of used the word eaten and made that comment more simple for you"

Did I misquote you? Did you not say to remove falling from the discussion?

#2 "you yourself said you caused it to fall right?? i'm saying to remove human error from this little equation. ok so lets say your a responsible keeper and you prevent escapes as you said is a cause and falling...the skinnest of T's can escape and get hurt and fall and injure themselves..but i myself prevent escapes...and falls...and how in any way does falling have to be with being unhealthy. i could easily fall any day of the week and die. does that make me unhealthy?? or could it be a human error that caused me to fall??
"

I fail to see your point here..
Just because the event could happen, I say, doing something to increase the damage cannot be considered 'good for you'.

#3"thats what i said. whats the debate here? i know for a fact that people have died overhydrating during sports and also some people have died drinking too much water too fast to try to pass a drug test. so yea thats a fact."

There is no debate. Ryan started it, I answered it. I don't know where you came in there...

#4 "did you not ask for proof in 1 of your earlier posts??
you said this..."

Um.. That was in reply to his call for proof. I say, if you call for proof, then provide your own.

#5 "actualy your argument started out as it being that an over fed is unhealthy. then your added the falling part and the escaping part to try to make yourself sound right."

Oh really? Let me check ShadowBlade's FIRST post in this thread.

There you go. That's the problem of overfeeding. Their abdomen is easier to rupture on short falls.

Now, either I need glasses, or I clearly dictate the relation between, what I deem as unhealthy about it = falls.

#6 first of all we are talking about T's. i could care less about a smoking monkey right now. again...THEY STOP EATING BECAUSE THEY ARE FULL. i really don't understand what is so difficult about that. what are a t's optimum conditions??

WHY IS FULL HEALTHY???

Cool off a little before you reply, lets try to keep this civil. Its just a debate. And so far you've proven no more right then I.

-Sean

 

[moose35]

yea but you took fallen to predators as actually falling...i mean getting eaten.


i fail to see your point if you prevent things from happening (ie don't handle your T's and prevent escapes) so where does a well fed tarantula become un-healthy. maybe unsafe but certainly not un healthy.

about the hydration thing how can you have too much water in your stomach without drinking it? thats my point. its not like water can appear there by magic.

as far as proof i'm gonna start a little spider diary just for with pictures video charts graphs yadda yadda so you can have some proof...
i see you can't just admit that your wrong on this. if you don't screw something up. then there is no chance of your T being injured cause its chubby. i don't care how fat it is. like i said 10 times take out the human error. and there will be no problems.

WHY IS HUNGRY HEALTHY??

again so maybe you chose the wrong choice of words here....maybe a fat T is unsafebut it is certainly not unhealthy.ponder on that for a while.


moose

 

[WyvernsLair]

I think "falling" should not be in the equation of whether eating too much is healthy or not healthy. There is an equal risk that any spider or even a person (whether it eats sparingly or pigs out like a glutton) can fall and injure itself. Allowing a spider to eat too much does NOT equate to the absolute conclusion that it will fall down. Falling does not create an internally generated health problem based on how much it eats or does not eat. Falling is an outside physical force that creates a physcial injury upon the animal and that injury can then in turn affect how much a spider can/should eat during the recovery period. Yes, overfeeding a non-injured spider can put them at a slightly higher risk for the effects of an outside physical injury inflicted on the spider, such as from a fall, but does not in and of itself cause the falls themselves that creates those injuries.

I would consider genetic defects to be a good example of an internally generated health problem such as when a spider is born with a defect like a noticable thin spot in the abdominal wall. At that point, yes I would be very careful of how much the spider was fed to prevent a rupture of an already existing health condition (i.e. a genetic defect).

I do have one such special needs spider. Instead of feeding it meals I would normally feed a spider of it's size, I feed it far smaller items far less often so that I don't cause the pressure within the abdomen to expand too much and put additional stress on the already too thin spot of its abdominal wall.

Notice the projection on the left side. Can't tell in the photo but up close it looks like the outer skin ripped some and pulled back allowing the inner membrane of the abdomen to push outward. The more the spider ate, the more the 'blister' expanded. As the spider has grown (molted twice since that photo), the abdomen seems to be thickening and repairing the blister-like projection of the thinner abdominal section... you can barely see the blister now.

I may never be able to feed it normal size meals during its lifetime or it's possible that after a while with some additional growth, the defect will totally heal itself and then the spider can pig out if it ever wants to.

 

[moose35]

I think "falling" should not be in the equation of whether eating too much is healthy or not healthy. There is an equal risk that any spider or even a person (whether it eats sparingly or pigs out like a glutton) can fall and injure itself. Allowing a spider to eat too much does NOT equate to the absolute conclusion that it will fall down. Falling does not create an internally generated health problem based on how much it eats or does not eat. Falling is an outside physical force that creates a physcial injury upon the animal and that injury can then in turn affect how much a spider can/should eat during the recovery period. Yes, overfeeding a non-injured spider can put them at a slightly higher risk for the effects of an outside physical injury inflicted on the spider, such as from a fall, but does not in and of itself cause the falls themselves that creates those injuries.

I would consider genetic defects to be a good example of an internally generated health problem such as when a spider is born with a defect like a noticable thin spot in the abdominal wall. At that point, yes I would be very careful of how much the spider was fed to prevent a rupture of an already existing health condition (i.e. a genetic defect).

I do have one such special needs spider. Instead of feeding it meals I would normally feed a spider of it's size, I feed it far smaller items far less often so that I don't cause the pressure within the abdomen to expand too much and put additional stress on the already too thin spot of its abdominal wall.

Notice the projection on the left side. Can't tell in the photo but up close it looks like the outer skin ripped some and pulled back allowing the inner membrane of the abdomen to push outward. The more the spider ate, the more the 'blister' expanded. As the spider has grown (molted twice since that photo), the abdomen seems to be thickening and repairing the blister-like projection of the thinner abdominal section... you can barely see the blister now.

I may never be able to feed it normal size meals during its lifetime or it's possible that after a while with some additional growth, the defect will totally heal itself and then the spider can pig out if it ever wants to.

very well put. i see you have a similar opinion to me.

moose

 

[cacoseraph]

So I have to ask can you point me in the direction of articles and studies that have shown heavy feeding to be the cause of those things you just mentioned?
I am not by any means saything they are not true I just want to read about it if it is. I think its a very interesting subject.

idk, read biology books

 

[WyvernsLair]

Yes I get all that but other then taking a fall and busting themselves wide open has there ever been a study done showing that its unhealthy? Causing weird molts? Or I dont know anything other then looking fat?

I know there is the theory that power feeding all the time shortens their life and that makes sinse, but is there anything else?

I have tarantulas that are bottomless guts and can never be filled up and I have some that eat their fill and stop. Some will even pig out for a few months and then take a few months off from eating (and not be due to an upcoming molt). I generally will feed a T as much as it wants. I had a T. blondi (male) a few years back that I stuffed and stuffed and never had a problem with him. The only time he would stop eating was 7-10 days before actually molting. He would go through 2-3 dozen crickets a week..he always tried his best to cram every cricket into his fangs/mouth before actually sitting down to eat. One summer he pigged out for nearly 2 months on 17-year periodical cicadas. He never got fat, but he was an active spider. He did roam around his cage frequently, digging and rearranging and generally working off some of the energy from the heavy feeding. He was the only true piggy spider I had. The others are more modest about their intake of food.

Power feeding is known to cause a problem in reptiles sometimes. They are all too often not properly expending the energy they are taking in. In captivity, they are fed nutritionally dense food items way way way more often than they would get in the wild and they are not actively spending the time needed to search and explore and find that food.... they just curl up in a small cage and wait for food to be dropped in - no energy expended. And like humans who eat too much with too little exercise, they get fat and lazy and suffer the same kinds of health problems that people do (fatty liver, enlarged hearts, too much pressure on the lungs, etc.). In a young growing reptile it is possible that the growth of the animal from power feeding can far exceed the body's ability to keep up with that growth on the skeletal level leading to possible trouble that way (mainly I think it is with the more genetically defective animals of poorer bloodlines from too much inbreeding). The bones are not strong enough to support the animal's weight and such... moderately to badly "kinked" snakes for example, usually don't live through their first year.

Invertebrates just don't seem to have many problems as reptiles and people since they don't have a vertebrate's anatomical structure. They are designed differently. Spiders certainly expend energy in exploring and hunting down food to eat when food is available and spinning webs. They sit around and don't do much of anything when they are conserving energy - using only what they need to maintain metabolic function from their bodily stores during leaner times. When there is an over abundance of food, spiders make use of it and use the extra energy for the molting cycle (or creating egg sacs). When it comes to metabolics, invertebrates are more along the lines of a true coldblooded animal than a reptile and better able to conserve. It is technically improper to call a reptile a cold-blooded animal (i.e. exotherm = outside heat ). Reptiles are properly called poikilotherms (poikilo = variable therm = heat) since they do produce some of their own internal body heat and then make up the difference of what they need from outside sources such as basking in the sun. Mammals and birds are of course endotherms (= internal heat). Humans are typically overweight.. consider how much more obese we could be if we weren't spending a lot of the energy we take in to produce the internal heat we need to keep metabolic functions working.

 

[ShadowBlade]

One thing that also must be taken into question is the original context of the words discussed from the beginning of the thread. Just because the terms evolved to 'healthy and unhealthy', doesn't really cancel the original intent of the discussion.

In no particular species, (that I know of), is it considered 'healthy' to have an above average weight, (added weight being un-digested food, not muscle). Birds, fish, reptiles, anything. Now, since we're talking about invertebrates here, tarantula's digestion works a little differently. Their organs in the abdomen can enlarge to extremely great proportions, (although there are other animals that can do better), but there are plenty of indications that this would prove harmful.

See though, obligate burrowers do not really have much to worry about, and can engorge themselves with possibly no side effects. Arboreals however, do. This is why its very much harder to stuff adult arboreals. (Spiderlings however, aren't difficult). But wandering species are the main group of concern. (Ever notice how rare it is to totally stuff mature males? Because they spend all their time running and falling, its probably instinctive for them not to gorge themselves).

Also, one of the definitions of unhealthy for you- "not conducive to good health".

There are many possibilities for research into the possibility of it being 'unhealthy'. Including, a detrimental effect on the oxygen exchange through the booklungs, and balance of the digestive system.

And no Moose. I will not admit I am wrong, as you will not either. You can provide no more evidence it is healthy, then I can it is not.

think about that,

-Sean

 

[lunixweb]

I'm only going to say one famous phrase "ALL THE EXCESSES ARE BAD" :worship:

 

[lunixweb]

well, I'll say some words more... why some of us want to overfeed our T's?..
come on, maybe is unhealthy or maybe is not..
the main idea here is why?.. only because we think that they will grow faster or bigger??..
I think it's a genetics job.. leave to the perfect nature to do it.

 

[Talkenlate04]

well, I'll say some words more... why some of us want to overfeed our T's?..
come on, maybe is unhealthy or maybe is not..
the main idea here is why?.. only because we think that they will grow faster or bigger??..
I think it's a genetics job.. leave to the perfect nature to do it.

But you have no clue how much food they intake in the wild. So you cant put it on genetics controlling anything. Its a matter of how much food is available for them to eat. Its been said more then once in this thread but in the wild its feast or starve, they eat a lot when its there and store up for the times that its not there.

 

[P. Novak]

But you have no clue how much food they intake in the wild. So you cant put it on genetics controlling anything. Its a matter of how much food is available for them to eat. Its been said more then once in this thread but in the wild its feast or starve, they eat a lot when its there and store up for the times that its not there.

Exactly so let them eat as much as they want. Once they had their fill they'll go on a fast. Let the Ts do what they want; they know what they're doing.

Us humans will not know if Ts can overeat or not for many more years, it'll take deep and significant research to find this out, so let's just drop it eh?

 

[moose35]

i think this can be solved simply by a change in wording..as i already said. i have no problem with someone saying that a real fat T is unsafe by no means is it unhealthy.

i guess we can let sleeping dogs lie

moose

 

[Talkenlate04]

i think this can be solved simply by a change in wording..as i already said. i have no problem with someone saying that a real fat T is unsafe by no means is it unhealthy.

i guess we can let sleeping dogs lie

moose

I can agree with that wording as well...........:clap:

 

[P. Novak]

I can agree with that wording as well...........:clap:

I, as well, so it's settled then!

 

[ShadowBlade]

i guess we can let sleeping dogs lie

This I can agree perfectly well to.

i think this can be solved simply by a change in wording..as i already said. i have no problem with someone saying that a real fat T is unsafe by no means is it unhealthy.

This I do not. I don't see why no one will prove it is any more healthy then it is not. But there is no point in continuing this... lets just end on good terms. Nothing has been proved.

Good debate though :clap:

-Sean

 

[Brian S]

why some of us want to overfeed our T's?..
come on, maybe is unhealthy or maybe is not..
the main idea here is why?..

I may have an answer for you....When I have an adult female in premolt and a male that is 1 molt from maturity, I will certainly powerfeed him in order for him to molt out in and be ready for the best time to mate a female in her molt cycle

only because we think that they will grow faster or bigger??..

Well, faster maybe but I dont know it it actually causes them to get bigger or not.