Can You

[Talkenlate04]

I dont consider it unhealthy because you can prevent damaging falls. With the right level of substrate in your tank a fall wont do anything fat or skinny. My Ts if they wanted to hang from the lid and free fall wont fall more then an inch. And when they hit its going to be a nice soft peatmoss landing.
I get what you are saying as well........... but I dont consider it to be unhealthy.

 

[ShadowBlade]

I dont consider it unhealthy because you can prevent damaging falls. With the right level of substrate in your tank a fall wont do anything fat or skinny. My Ts if they wanted to hang from the lid and free fall wont fall more then an inch. And when they hit its going to be a nice soft peatmoss landing.
I get what you are saying as well........... but I dont consider it to be unhealthy.

Ah, but now you are the one generalizing. What other people do, and what you do, (and what happens in the wild) is all different. You may attempt to dissipate the problem, but the risk is still there. Greater or lesser depending on the keeper. If its health is comprimised, it is 'un-healthy'.
You wouldn't consider this added risk 'healthy' would you?

Lets keep the friendly though, no hard feelings, just a debate.

-Sean

 

[Thoth]

Someone on the boards (search for the thread) had a t split its abdomen. It was coming up on a molt (though prior to pre-molt) and the the abdomen split exposing the new developing exoskeleton. I don't remember if the t survived or was able to later molt successfully.

There was an article a whilt back in the BTS journal, I believe more about powerfeeding, and how it leads to shorter lifespan and less ealth spiders.

Besides that an overfed t is not active or all that exciting.

 

[ShadowBlade]

But can you admit in the wild females dont go trying to climb out of the burrow and up the sides of a tank and the lid, because there is no tank and lid....... so the risk is nil. They sit in burrows.

No, you mean obligate burrowers sit in burrows. Not the dozens of wandering species.
And my point is that, in the wild, they don't stuff themselves, as it slows them down, increasing risk of predation. The ones that do, get eaten. That's natural selection, the most fit are what live. In the hobby, we don't have those factors eliminating those that indulge in the benefits of captivity.

All I'm saying, as we're obviously both talking about falls/overeating. How can you call it 'beneficial to its health'? (ie. not unhealthy). Please explain.

-Sean

Edit: I think they just fixed the time thing. My post just got placed in the middle of the page.

 

[cacoseraph]

typical things that can go wrong in organisms from gross obesity include

having nerve and/or blood tracts compressed

absorbtion of nutrients changes

(dis)stress on circulatory system increases


um... it's 9 minutes before a 3 day weekend that has two bug hunting days in it... i couldprobably think of more but i cant right now

 

[Talkenlate04]

Debate is fun I dont mind,

and what happens in the wild

But can you admit in the wild females dont go trying to climb out of the burrow and up the sides of a tank and the lid, because there is no tank and lid....... so the risk is nil. They sit in burrows. Plus like I said before they know their limit. You cant make them eat. If there is food everywhere they will only eat what they feel they need to.
I see the point of the different keepers, but even a skinny T in a tank that allows a long hard fall can be hurt. So improper care is improper care.
When kept properly fat or skinny does not make much of a difference at all.

 

[Talkenlate04]

typical things that can go wrong in organisms from gross obesity include

having nerve and/or blood tracts compressed

absorbtion of nutrients changes

(dis)stress on circulatory system increases


um... it's 9 minutes before a 3 day weekend that has two bug hunting days in it... i couldprobably think of more but i cant right now

So I have to ask can you point me in the direction of articles and studies that have shown heavy feeding to be the cause of those things you just mentioned?
I am not by any means saything they are not true I just want to read about it if it is. I think its a very interesting subject.

 

[moose35]

i personally feed my T's as much as they will eat each sitting. i see no health problems with any of my T's. i even keep my aboreals fat. i think keeping a T skinny is cruel. if they are hungry let them eat.

-who is to say that someone should feed a certain # of prey items per sitting?
-what is the proper amount to feed?
-how big should a t's abdomen be?
-i've seen plenty of T's in the wild that are very plump(be it pics or imports)
-most wc stuff is skinny after its sitting in a wholesalers not being taken care of.

but until someone researches what a T's feeding requirements are(how much protien,fat, calories..ect... ect) everything anyone says is just speculation.


so in my opionion a well fed T is a happy T.


moose

 

[P. Novak]

My short sweet answer, I don't think you can overfeed a T; they know when to stop, and I have witnessed this many times with many different Ts, including Grammostola rosea.

 

[ShadowBlade]

But now we're getting on the wrong page again...

Of course the T knows when to stop, in the literal sense, you can't 'overfeed' a T, like it will pop. It doesn't even have the muscles in the throat to cram it down, same as we can't.

But, the point we're discussing is can you overfeed to a point that it becomes 'unhealthy'.

-Sean

 

[P. Novak]

But now we're getting on the wrong page again...

Of course the T knows when to stop, in the literal sense, you can't 'overfeed' a T, like it will pop. It doesn't even have the muscles in the throat to cram it down, same as we can't.

But, the point we're discussing is can you overfeed to a point that it becomes 'unhealthy'.

-Sean

We can't say; we don't even know what an 'unhealthy' T is. Until we do what moose mentioned...

but until someone researches what a T's feeding requirements are(how much protien,fat, calories..ect... ect) everything anyone says is just speculation.

 

[moose35]

We can't say; we don't even know what an 'unhealthy' T is. Until we do what moose mentioned...

yes sir


@shadowblade....if a T can't be overfed then how can an overfed T be unhealthy????
also i do believe we have mucles that cram down food. unlike a T. as i know i've overfed my self on more the 10,000,000 occasions.

 

[ShadowBlade]

also i do believe we have mucles that cram down food.

But like I said, we don't posess the strength to pop the stomach. (which is what I aluded to in my post about T's.

as i know i've overfed my self on more the 10,000,000 occasions.

BINGO!! That's it! You nailed it man. It doesn't exactly feel good does it? Would you like to take a kick to the stomach after it? Exactly. Do you think it was 'healthy'?

It is unhealthy for the tarantula DUE TO the volume of the stomach after over-feeding, it is way easier to damage the internal organs by short falls. It stretches the cuticle that's supposed to cushion the heart. It also expands organs by filling them with liquid, increasing the pressure, causing damage easier on impact.
By exposing organs more susceptible to damage, you can't consider that healthy.

I'm not saying that giving it more calories/protein/riboflavins is unhealthy. Its the effects of too much volume of food consumed.

-Sean

 

[Talkenlate04]

But this never really happens in the wild........ Ts live in holes in the ground or parts of trees or in makeshift hides.They hardly move after the disperse as babies.(except males that wander for mates) I doubt most of them know what a fall is. So it all boils down to proper care. If an owner of a T keeps a ground dweller in a tree type setup its going to fall and maybe get hurt. If someone handles one and it falls it could get hurt............ But if you keep them safely where falls are short and harmless the ammount they eat means nothing.

Think of it this way..... if you were dead set on over eating smoking and drinking you litterally could kill youself sitting in a recliner eating a pizza pounding jack and coke. Nothing has to hit you, you dont have to fall, your body would just say "I hate you" and quits that is unhealthy.
This does not happen with Ts. They have a limit. They know when to stop.Energy is stored for growth and an upcoming molt, it does not get stored as fat.They dont get fat per say. They might be heavy before a molt from eating a lot but its gone as soon as the molt is over. So how are you to assume there are all these "unhealthy" effects if everything you are basing "unhealthy" on is a fall? Your in effect saying that they have to fall for it to be an issue. But they can fall and be heavly fed or not. So falling should not be in the picture. The act of eating that much is not unhealthy, climbing might be unhealthy, but not the act of eating itself.

 

[moose35]

exactly forget about the falling.......

this is way way way off topic but....
i'm not saying that i'm in any pain or discomfort after i eat. i eat alot. all the time. what i eat daily could probally feed you for 3-4 days. i have a very fast metabolism. i'm a big guy. and i have a very physically demanding job. every day before i leave my house i eat 2 banans. get to the shop. leave the shop stop at the deli get 2 double bacon egg and cheese sandwiches and a bagle with cream cheese and a quart of oj. then for lunch (it varies daily) but examples are whole pizzas all 8 slices. or 3 big jersey style sandwiches(they have like 3 inches thick of meat and a half inch of cheese ) or 3 value meals from a fast food place. and i only have a 20 minute lunch. and work right after eating. back to carrying block or cement or on a ladder 40 feet up caulking and on a scafold up 20-30 stories up in the air. then there is dinner but i'm sure you see where i'm going with this. plus the 2 -3 gallons i drink daily.

but to get back on topic...
if there was no falling(cause a well fed properly kept t has no reason to climb whatsoever...unless aboreal of course.)
what are the actual health risks of over feeding. it really has no effect on molting on its own. you need some extra heat added to the equation for that. all of mine stop eating when they have had enough. they feed heavily right after a molt then slowly decline in the number of prey items they eat until they stop eating and molt again. ( such as7..7..6..6..4..2...2...2...1....1....1...0..............moult.......8.......8.......8......7.....7....7....7...) get the idea. as they get bigger they are gonna eat more to fill out there new body then slowly fall off.(no pun intended) its worked for me for the last 7 or so years i've been heavy into t's. so untill i see some reports that over feeding can cause type 2 diabetes or congestive heart failure or morbid obesity, strokes, gastritis, yadda yadda yadda. my t's will remain BBW's.


moose

and sorry for my grammar i'm a mason

 

[ShadowBlade]

But this never really happens in the wild........ Ts live in holes in the ground or parts of trees or in makeshift hides.

No, it does happen in the wild. There are many wandering species. Take for instance, the other day I found a centipede while flipping a rock. The centipede was startled, and ran, falling off the rock. Are stone centipedes arboreals that spend alot of time falling? No. But circumstances will occur that causes them to fall. Wandering species startled by something running past. Birds swooping at them, urbanizing machinery slashing through their environments, do you think the life of a tarantula is an 'easy cool in the shade'? Why do you think they have so many babies? Because so many die.

Think of it this way..... if you were dead set on over eating smoking and drinking you litterally could kill youself sitting in a recliner eating a pizza pounding jack and coke. Nothing has to hit you, you dont have to fall, your body would just say "I hate you" and quits that is unhealthy.

This argument is invalid. First off, you can't eat yourself to death. Not eating normal food, without anything else involved. Not naturally.

Second, smoking is nothing like eating, that has to do with oxygen/carbon monoxide exchange in red blood cells, totally different discussion.

And three, if when you mean drinking, you mean alcoholic drinks, thats a poison. You can kill a tarantula by giving it too much pesticide, again different story. If by drinking you mean normal liquids, I'm pretty sure the only thing that will kill you is too much water, because after so long, it dilutes the electrolytes in your body, preventing electrical impulses in your brain. (I believe it also washes out too much from your kidneys or something).. The water itself in your stomach would not kill you, again, it involves other systems.

This does not happen with Ts. They have a limit. They know when to stop.

I'm sorry, but you're using flawed logic. You want evidence for my side, yet you provide none. Provide evidence that they stop at a healthy limit. That serves optimum running conditions for the body. Prove this.

I've provided evidence that its not good. By increasing pressure in certain organs, and stretching the cuticle preventing cushioning of some organs. Both of these would prove to negatively affect the tarantula in an escape. Or accidental fall. Physics will tell us, the added mass to an adult tarantula would not prove beneficial.

Now, in the wild, certain species, (that I believe to be most susceptible to over-stuffing), have instincts to eat as much as possible, but this is to get them through times of famine. Not to benefit their health at the time. In captivity, there is no time without food.

Sorry for the long post.

-Sean

 

[moose35]

No, it does happen in the wild. There are many wandering species. Take for instance, the other day I found a centipede while flipping a rock. The centipede was startled, and ran, falling off the rock. Are stone centipedes arboreals that spend alot of time falling? No. But circumstances will occur that causes them to fall. Wandering species startled by something running past. Birds swooping at them, urbanizing machinery slashing through their environments, do you think the life of a tarantula is an 'easy cool in the shade'? Why do you think they have so many babies? Because so many die.

exactly it fell cause you caused it to fall...most babies fall(no pun inteded again) to predators. birds, lizards, ect ect..
This argument is invalid. First off, you can't eat yourself to death. Not eating normal food, without anything else involved. Not naturally.
you sure can eat your self to death with food alone.
Second, smoking is nothing like eating, that has to do with oxygen/carbon monoxide exchange in red blood cells, totally different discussion.
ok your right
And three, if when you mean drinking, you mean alcoholic drinks, thats a poison. You can kill a tarantula by giving it too much pesticide, again different story. If by drinking you mean normal liquids, I'm pretty sure the only thing that will kill you is too much water, because after so long, it dilutes the electrolytes in your body, preventing electrical impulses in your brain. (I believe it also washes out too much from your kidneys or something).. The water itself in your stomach would not kill you, again, it involves other systems.

right on that point also people have died from over-hydrating



I'm sorry, but you're using flawed logic. You want evidence for my side, yet you provide none. Provide evidence that they stop at a healthy limit. That serves optimum running conditions for the body. Prove this.
do you want pictures and a study done? i'll do it just for you. i'm serious.

I've provided evidence that its not good. By increasing pressure in certain organs, and stretching the cuticle preventing cushioning of some organs. Both of these would prove to negatively affect the tarantula in an escape. Or accidental fall. Physics will tell us, the added mass to an adult tarantula would not prove beneficial.
where did you get this proof?...again your talking about falling. what physics?
Now, in the wild, certain species, (that I believe to be most susceptible to over-stuffing), have instincts to eat as much as possible, but this is to get them through times of famine. Not to benefit their health at the time. In captivity, there is no time without food.
what species?? as in captivity they stop eating till they are full. not saying this is 1 feeding it may take several months...THEN THEY STOP EATING.

Sorry for the long post.
-Sean

hey i couldn't figure out how to break down a post to quote different parts so i added my comments in your quote underlined italics and in bold.

 

[Brian S]

This is an interesting debate you all, it really is.:worship:

We can't say; we don't even know what an 'unhealthy' T is. Until we do what moose mentioned...

Now this is my opinion about all of this. I think it is safe to assume that we dont always know what a healthy or an unhealthy T is. I know that is getting pretty as it is safe to say that if a T eats, molts and grows it is probably healthy, right? But we dont really know how much though

 

[ShadowBlade]

Well, I can't quote you from my own quote, so I'll address each of your reply's in number.

#1 "exactly it fell cause you caused it to fall...most babies fall(no pun inteded again) to predators. birds, lizards, ect ect.."

Then why are you saying to remove 'falling' from the discussion? It happens. If we were to take all physical events from our lives in discussion and views, alot more things would be legal, and a lot more people would be dead.

2# "right on that point also people have died from over-hydrating"
I'm pretty sure 'over-hydrating' causes what I said. Not having too much water in the stomach.

3# "do you want pictures and a study done? i'll do it just for you. i'm serious.

You guys were the ones asking for proof.

Any proof?

So I have to ask can you point me in the direction of articles and studies that have shown heavy feeding to be the cause of those things you just mentioned?

Any proof it stresses them out?

4# "where did you get this proof?...again your talking about falling. what physics?"

Falling has been my entire argument from the beginning. It is the only thing I've been arguing. Why can't I use it? What proof would you like? That heavier things transfer more energy upon impact? That it takes more resilience to resist rupture in something containing higher pressures of liquid?

5# "what species?? as in captivity they stop eating till they are full. not saying this is 1 feeding it may take several months...THEN THEY STOP EATING."

Why do they stop eating then? Is that the optimum condition for them? I do have news for you guys, animals do not always 'do what's best for them'.
Shall I start listing animals that will eat to obesity if given the chance? The monkey that won't quit smoking? Insects that gorge themselves on pesticides?

-Sean

 

[By-Tor]

Ummm, you can eat yourself to death. Even too much of a good thing is a bad thing, like an entire bathtub full of baked beans, yea you'll throw up eventually but i bet if you shoved it down quick enough you'll have the same problem that sean seems to be fearing, inreased tension on the surface increases likelyhood of rupture....

talkenlate, when you had those really young slings, didn't some of the ones eating each other actually burst from doing so?