Burrowing T that lives in groups

[SkyeSpider]

I have to agree with Dave. It seems like just luck.

-Bryan

 

[Code Monkey]

Bearacuda, no one is picking on anyone, but Dave is right.

There is no such thing as a truly social tarantula, only more tolerant species. Related Poecilotheria and Hysterocrates seem to form very good 'colonies', Avicularia tend to not eat one another, and some like Pterinochillus are known for peaceably coexisting as mated pairs. Other people may have mixed other species not known for being tolerant and had good luck.

None of that makes these guys in any way, shape or form, truly social. For every person who talks about how their Avicularia colony went six years with no agression before they began to pass of old age, another will mention how his Avicularia colony went 5 years, 364 days before one of them killed all the others in a space of days. Hysterocrates colonies often turn cannabilistic as they approach maturity. Poecilotheria get along real well, until one female decides that the others are cramping in on her reproductive space...

Tarantula's don't settle differences with ritualised combat or name calling, they settle it by driving the fangs into the carapace of the other one and eating them if tyou give them a chance. So fine, maybe in your case you've been lucky and nothing has happened to disturb the other one. Maybe they truly aren't in any way bent out of shape by the other one, but it doesn't mean you *know* them because you can't really know a tarantula. They may go their whole lives just fine, or you may wake up tomorrow and find that one killed the other. They aren't restrained by morality or friendship or love - if they perceive that something has changed such that killing and eating their room mate is the best course of action, then that is exactly what they will do.

 

[King_Looey]

First. Stop being so critical of all that is unusual. I have kept King Baboons, Cobalt blues, red knees and chilean roses communually without any deaths.

second. Join the BTS.

Third. The BBC doesnt sponser fake exhibitions, and im sure you have all heard of the legendary Chicken spider. If not, dont criticise people with more experiance than you.

Lastly. Check out the website. i have also seen the video footage. It was verified by the best experts in the BTS. This is an ambush spider, working in groups to hunt and kill pray.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/spiderman.shtml

 

[Code Monkey]

Critical? What is critical about stating that *tarantulas* are not truly social. There are social true spiders that live in colonies - but they're not tarantulas and if there was much in common besides the 8 legs and fangs between tarantulas and true spiders we wouldn't have the distinction of 'true' spider. I'm not a member of the BTS, but I'm sure they're not as happily optimistic as you make them out. Plenty of ATS members have experimented with keeping various Ts together over the years as well. The ATS line is only put tarantulas of any species, no matter how 'social' they're claimed to be, if you don't mind winding up with only one, or even zero, tarantulas in the end. It's sound advice.

The fact is that I have never read anyone who kept multiple Ts without problem in a normal sized enclosure without also reading about someone who did virtually the same thing and wound up with unprovoked aggression, sometimes even agression that could be considered 'murder'.

If the truth gets people bent out of shape, then I don't know what to say other than no offense was intended but naive views are still naive views.

 

[savian]

I would also like to add for both sides of this that this was off of the TV. TV likes to make things better than they are. I think that as with other topics that have been talked about on this board that some things work for some people and some things don't. We really don't want any bad feeling OK.

 

[King_Looey]

This was never on TV, all i want is for you to acknowledge that this spider exists, the proof is all here, yet people still say it is photoshopped.

Also, just because most people cant get Tarantulas to live in small groups, doesnt mean others cant. The weather is cooler in Britain, maybe the lower temperature makes them more docile.

 

[Gail]

Amen, savian. There is no need for this to turn ugly. But having said that I can't help but throw in my two cents
If Bearacuda wishes to believe that he "knows" his T's then let him believe it. Just because it is scientifically proven and proven by experience of long term tarantula keepers that you can never really "know" a T like you can "know" a cat because of the vast differences in neurological and instictutual makeup is no reason why any of us should try to convince Bearacuda that he couldn't "know" his T's. Let him be. One day, unless he is EXTREMELY lucky, he will finally have an experience that will prove him wrong. Either one of his spiders will eat another or he will be badly bitten or some other such thing. It is not our place here to try to convince anyone that they must never loose respect for the fact that these are very simple minded, driven by instinct (and sometimes seemingly whim), WILD animals. Now, wether or not he will admit to being wrong, that is another matter entirely
It is also not our place here to try to convince anyone that you can't believe everything you see on TV and in print as the gospel truth

Gail

 

[belewfripp]

I guess what I don't understand is why you would want to risk it. With a breeding pair, I can understand, as prolonged exposure potentially could lead to more matings and a greater chance of success and of course the male is not going to be long for this world anyway. But with others, while you could perhaps keep them together with success, I don't see what about it would make the risk worthwhile.


As for the 'Chicken Spider', if it truly is a theraphosid of genus Pamphobeteus, then there is a lot of study that needs to be done. I can't help but think, though, that too many assumptions are being made too soon. If you look at the pic, if the big spider is 10 inches in legspan, that makes the spiderlings around 2-4 inches. People have already reported that Hysterocrates spp. tarantulas will often cohabitate with young up to a fairly big size. How do we know that this Pamphobeteus sp. tarantula is truly social and doesn't just cohabitate until the younger Ts reach a bigger size? When they hit 5-6 inches, who knows, maybe they disperse, or cannibalism sets in. I think a lot of study still needs to be done before this spider is labeled as being truly social.

Adrian

 

[skinheaddave]

Originally posted by King_Looey
Third. The BBC doesnt sponser fake exhibitions,

You've got to be kidding me. You mean they wouldn't stretch the truth just a little? They wouldn't, perhaps, de-emphasize the fact that things are "possibly" true. Every time someone comes out with even preliminary results for some study (eating pig ears can cure botchalism, or whatever) the media puts it forth as fact. Check out the BBC coverage of the Southall riot and you've got to wonder if they even bothered showing up? They used to walk around paying fivers to have young skins throw a nazi salute for the camera. Giving a kid a lot of money to wave his arm for a camera in a way he doesn't fully understand constitutes a "false exhibition" to me.

As for the pic itself, it is not implausable that the BBC doctored (sorry, "tweaked") it. The media is allowed to make composite pictures to bring a point across. I'd like to see if the same picture would appear in a scientific article on the topic.

As for studies needing to be done, it goes beyond what belewfripp has mentioned. Check out the BBC site and check out the text. Nothing is substantiated. They go so far as to say that 50 individuals in a burrow is evidence of co-operative hunting. Bit of a jump, wouldn't you say?

That being said, I'm not saying that the reported "facts" aren't true. I'm just saying that perhaps you should give a moments pause before jumping on the bandwagon of half-informed, gullible individuals.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Code Monkey]

Looey - on the 'spider exists' bit. I never said otherwise because I simply do not know what you're talking about. A journal citation would be nice if you want to say there is a purportedly social T. The picture looks a bit fake to me as well but only because everybody is so perfectly posed - I can't find that many of my Ts all separate in their cages at any given moment all spread legged like that.

That aside, I think you are getting a *bit* (you are being very reasonable on the whole ) bent out of shape on semantics. I didn't see one person claim you *couldn't* keep Ts of any species together without aggression, only that there is no guarantee or reason to believe that just because your Ts went 800 days without aggression that you still won't wake up on day 801 and find one has killed his room mate. Too many people have experimented with this idea on all sides of the lake (many of the Poecilotheria colony articles I've read originated in England) and it's never a sure thing.

And as someone else pointed out, many Ts are known to cohabitate as spiderlings and often near their mother without excessive aggression. That doesn't make them social even if we assume the story to be true insofar as the scientist reported it (and scientists never have wacky ideas that don't pan out in research ) and the picture is undoctored. Until it's published in a peer reviewed journal any research is worth about as much as some random guy's opinion on the corner.

 

[King_Looey]

Did anyone even read the website review? Or has anyone even checked out the BTS forum?

He even brought one of these spiders on the Graham Norton show, proof that it exists.

 

[johns]

I read the website review with great interest, King, and have even dropped by and read some on the chicken spider at the BTS website..

 

[King_Looey]

Good to see one open minded person here, i wouldnt post something i was not 100% sure existed.

 

[SkyeSpider]

I doubt most of the people posting are debating its existance. What we seem to be debating is its lifestyle. That's the part that's MUCH harder to proove.

-Bryan

 

[Gail]

EXACTLY Bryan!! =D =D
I am not saying it does not exist, simply that the photo of it's reported life-style is doctored and therefore puts the information concerning it's lifestyle into question.

Gail

 

[skinheaddave]

I'll third that motion. We're not saying the entire thing is fabricated, Looey, just that you're reporting theory as fact. That's why our peer-reviewed scientific system exists. Unfortunately, the media often take there being "evidence" of something as meaning there is sufficient proof to accept the theory. The thing to remember, though, is that you can't plot a graph from a single point -- or at least not one that's worth anything.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[belewfripp]

King:

Yes, I read the information at the website whose link you provided. That is what my post was based on. I do not even necessarily believe the photo was doctored, I just think that the press has perhaps jumped the gun slightly on whether or not this is a truly social theraphosid.

Also -- though I have my reservations regarding the conclusions drawn from the material, I was not aware of the 'Chicken Spider' until you posted the info and it is interesting stuff, so thank you for sharing it.

Adrian

 

[johns]

Originally posted by King_Looey
Good to see one open minded person here, i wouldnt post something i was not 100% sure existed.

Hi, K_L-


While I don't question the existence of the chicken spider, I do have some doubts about the photos posted by you and the fact that this species manages to live "communally".


Thanks for the nice compliment about my open-mind, which I try very conscientiously to portray on the www.:)

 

[ithuriel]

hi everyone its Dr. nick riviera
hmmmm ok maybe not okkk right then communal spiders.
if they are what looey thinks good for them if not bet youd still like one anyway whatever happens i bet there are still plenty of surprises in the world of the spider enthusiast to come personally i try to always keep an open mind and i try to remember too that i may not always be right though it can be hard , lol

 

[earthVSspider]

re

ahhhh, by the way gail bearacudda is a she and not a he as you mentioned there so much, and I know her, she has quite a lot of exsperience when it comes to t's, she was just wondering what was going on with her goliaths, as she has never seen anything like this before, and yes they have been together for a month;P