Breeding in the wild

Kirk

Arachnodemon
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I have, yes.

The DEFINITION, as, dictionary, straight forward, DEFINITION of a species is one that can mate and make offspring. I am not saying I don't consider people with DS humans, but PER DEFINITION(there it is again, that word.. ) they aren't a species at all. I could scan my old biology books, but I'd doubt you'd get anything, as they're in norwegian..

But I'm not excatly sure you got exacrly what I meant here..
A standard dictionary definition of species is the worst possible reference to use. But since you say you have examined the vast literature on the subject, I'm sure you've read this paper:

Mayden, R.L. 1997. A hierarchy of species concepts: the denouement in the saga of the species problem. In: Claridge MF, Dawah HA, Wilson MR (eds) Species: the units of biodiversity. Chapman & Hall, New York, pp 381-424.
 

AbraCadaver

Arachnoknight
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Yes, I have.
As you must know, definition and science is under constant change, and scrutany, causing several theories on one subject, and as many definitions as there are scientists. In my post I say " But as caco pointed out, it all comes down to definitions, but per a biological study definition, species is an aggrivating term.."

So, I should perhaps been a bit clearer - as per some scientists defenition, splangy is indeed right. Again, according to, some she completly off. It basicly depends on which defenition you find the most accurate and convincing.
 

jayefbe

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I'm with Kirk on this one, the dictionary definition of species is a joke. I can't remember how many times lab meetings have ended up as a debate about how one defines what a species is. It is a complicated and never-ending topic, largely driven by our human need to define and separate into categories that in reality aren't so clear. Many esteemed biologists entire careers have been predicated on how one defines a species and how speciation occurs. To narrow it down to a simple two-sentence definition is just false. Not to mention that it adds fuel to the creationist fire....it gives the impression that speciation events are immediate, one generation is one species, the following is another.
 

Kirk

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Splangy is indeed right, the term "species", by definition, means two individual that can mate and produce fertile offspring. Thus, creating a species that can grow.
So, I should perhaps been a bit clearer - as per some scientists defenition, splangy is indeed right. Again, according to, some she completly off. It basicly depends on which defenition you find the most accurate and convincing.
Ok, so now that you've clarified yourself, we can ignore Splangy's view, and your endorsement of it, as it is not a biologically defensible model.
 

jayefbe

Arachnoprince
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So, I should perhaps been a bit clearer - as per some scientists defenition, splangy is indeed right. Again, according to, some she completly off. It basicly depends on which defenition you find the most accurate and convincing.
The thing is, even biologists that completely follow the Biological Species Concept (which I think Splangy is incorrectly endorsing) wouldn't say her comments are valid. Hybrid zones do exist. Hybridization of different species does exist. Splangy fails to recognize that speciation events don't happen instantaneously, and the ability to interbreed isn't the final say. There are hybrid fitness levels, differences in phenology, mating behaviors, etc...all important pieces in a very complicated puzzle in what can be defined as a separate species. Quite frankly, her absolute and unchanging definition is rather naive.
 

AbraCadaver

Arachnoknight
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Ok, so now that you've clarified yourself, we can ignore Splangy's view, and your endorsement of it, as it is not a biologically defensible model.
Was simply trying to say, that some places, as in Norway, this view of species is considered a possible one, and is taught in school beside "your" view, as an alternate model to a science that is still rather unexplored in many ways.
 

AbraCadaver

Arachnoknight
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The thing is, even biologists that completely follow the Biological Species Concept (which I think Splangy is incorrectly endorsing) wouldn't say her comments are valid. Hybrid zones do exist. Hybridization of different species does exist. Splangy fails to recognize that speciation events don't happen instantaneously, and the ability to interbreed isn't the final say. There are hybrid fitness levels, differences in phenology, mating behaviors, etc...all important pieces in a very complicated puzzle in what can be defined as a separate species. Quite frankly, her absolute and unchanging definition is rather naive.
Absolutley - science is a jungle, and as I said, there's as many definitions and theories as there are scientists, making it easy to get confused.
 

Kirk

Arachnodemon
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Was simply trying to say, that some places, as in Norway, this view of species is considered a possible one, and is taught in school beside "your" view, as an alternate model to a science that is still rather unexplored in many ways.
And as we know, what one learns in 'school' is not always representative of current scientific thinking. And if you're being taught that determining species only requires the notion of interbreeding, then your teachers/professors have questionable expertise.
 
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