Avics/Cross Ventilation-- European vs USA Husbandry?

[cold blood]

I can tell this much. i dont use live plants at all, only plastic. I know some are using live plants here.

So are your enclosures actually kept damper than we tend to? Are you doing things in an attempt to raise humidity to constantly replace what is lost out of the top?

We know the differences in the enclosures, I'd be interested more in the husbandry differences, as that's likely what makes each type of enclosure able to ultimately be successful.

 

[viper69]

I've set up another for the G. porteri that I haven't put it in yet but it has succulants in it so that they don't require a lot of watering

Be curious to see that works for you, as most people report the terrestrials digging up the plants.

 

[lunarae]

Be curious to see that works for you, as most people report the terrestrials digging up the plants.

Yeah I've heard of that happening as well. We will see, it may be a matter of finding the right kinds of plants that they're ok with being around in order to have it work. I got video of my A. versicolor out and roaming just now. She was just sitting on the top leaf when I saw her and then started walking around when I got the flashlight out to really be able to see. But she seems to be moving around comfortably without issue and looks healthy to me in the enclosure she's in right now. Here's the video, does she look alright to anyone else?

 

[louise f]

So are your enclosures actually kept damper than we tend to? Are you doing things in an attempt to raise humidity to constantly replace what is lost out of the top?

We know the differences in the enclosures, I'd be interested more in the husbandry differences, as that's likely what makes each type of enclosure able to ultimately be successful.

Hey CB.
I am not sure if we keep it damper, but when we have mated the female ( avicularia ) we moist the substrate a lot to trigger the female to lay a sac, because here where we live ( in our house ) the air is really dry. We mist the enclosures every second day, to keep the humidity up. But even here is a lot of discussion, if a water dish is enough.
This is only something we do with the avics. ( because they are so delicate )

I hope you can read my mombo jombo

 

[Tim Benzedrine]

It's based on the number of posts if I recall correctly, potentially length of time here too, I'm not sure.

For the rest of you, maybe. For me it was divine providence.

So a person could come to this forum, and post about ANYTHING, it doesn't have to be intelligent.

Ha! I KNEW it!

It used to have many senior T keepers and new people. When I first joined there were A LOT of people, breeders especially, who I learned A LOT from.

Until I caused them all to leave. See above.

This isn't knowledge we are born with .

Unless it is granted through divine providence. See also above.

 

[Yanose]

I myself was actually knighted be the Queen of all arachnids I have a spidery coat of arms and every thing.

 

[eminart]

I don't want to start an argument, but since getting into T's, I've been hearing a lot about this "cross ventilation" stuff. And, I don't think the physics of airflow work that way. With no other variances, what makes air "flow" from one side to the other? You'll just get passive exchange of air on both sides, will you not? I mean, if you're sitting in a room with two doors that open into other rooms, is there a cross breeze (assuming there is no forced air from AC, fans, open windows, etc.)?

I mean, I'm open to being proven wrong, but I think it's a myth. Ventilation may be important, but I'm not buying this cross ventilation idea.

 

[viper69]

Hey CB.
I am not sure if we keep it damper, but when we have mated the female ( avicularia ) we moist the substrate a lot to trigger the female to lay a sac, because here where we live ( in our house ) the air is really dry. We mist the enclosures every second day, to keep the humidity up. But even here is a lot of discussion, if a water dish is enough.
This is only something we do with the avics. ( because they are so delicate )

I hope you can read my mombo jombo

So are you saying in Europe there is equally as much debate as to how to keep Avics? If so, what are the other issues the EU discusses?

 

[louise f]

So are you saying in Europe there is equally as much debate as to how to keep Avics? If so, what are the other issues the EU discusses?

Yes that`s what i am saying. The Danes argue just as much as you Americans Plants and the sub are some of the other arguing here

 

[viper69]

You'll just get passive exchange of air on both sides

I've always wondered myself on this, and thought the same.

I'm not discrediting the need for ventilation. One of the things I have speculated on is perhaps USA Avics were kept at high humidity because "everyone" either read care sheets or knew where they were from. SO in efforts to keep high humidity didn't have a lot of ventilation holes. This results in dead Avics, they will die in containers with moist stuffy air.

So, then to combat that, people increased the air ventilation or rather number of holes and started to see success in that form of husbandry. This in turn resulted in drier Avic containers, and next thing you know, many people are recommending dry or more dry containers with a lot of holes (myself included).

It's only speculation on my part.

 

[viper69]

Yes that`s what i am saying. The Danes argue just as much as you Americans Plants and the sub are some of the other arguing here

Oh I didn't know this at all. They are wondering if plants are needed, and if so, what type of plants I speculate?

I wish @Storm76 would drop in on this thread.

 

[louise f]

Oh I didn't know this at all. They are wondering if plants are needed, and if so, what type of plants I speculate?

I am not a big plant fan, only the plastic ones so i am not into what sort of plants you should use. I dont know about Germany, i am only referring to Denmark.

I wish @Storm76 would drop in on this thread.

 

[Yanose]

I think it is more about venting on the sides rather than the top so that you get a accumulation of moisture while simultaneously allowing for excess moisture to flow out albeit passively where as too much top venting can lead more easily to losing most of your moisture. just kinda my thoughts on it. only way to know for sure would be experiment and exercise scientific method.

 

[Storm76]

@viper69
There really is no myth with this stuff. Simple reason most of us Europeans use those glass containers, is that Acrylic for example are way more expensive over here. In addition, a T can easily chew threw those mesh vents and while it doesn't happen every single time one of these animals is housed in a tank with them, it's a risk not everyone is willing to take. The major point is really price (mentioned this in another thread before): For example the glass cage I have "Phaedra" house in is 40cm tall, 30cm wide & deep - that thing did cost me 20 bucks without decoration. On the same note, importing those nice Acrylic cages from Adam did cost me not only the price of the cage itself, but also customs - which in the end I could've easily bought 10+ glass cages for.

The ~3mm thick aluminium on top rear and front bottom is something I've never heard any T chew threw so far - not because they can't, but because there's no real point at which they could angle their fangs to start doing it even. Less risk for injury / escapes there, too.

As for ventilation, "cross-ventilation" can be front <> back, but it can also be left <> right - there's no rule for that. The only cages I don't like, despite the fact people use them, are those with only a single point of air-access. Picking up on the example with the room and opening the door in hot summer: You will feel NO difference really. But if you open the door and the window in the room, as well as one on the other side...due to the open door you'll have actual airflow and that's what i.e. Avic experience up in the trees. My opinion and I stand by it.

 

[viper69]

@viper69
There really is no myth with this stuff. Simple reason most of us Europeans use those glass containers, is that Acrylic for example are way more expensive over here. In addition, a T can easily chew threw those mesh vents and while it doesn't happen every single time one of these animals is housed in a tank with them, it's a risk not everyone is willing to take. The major point is really price (mentioned this in another thread before): For example the glass cage I have "Phaedra" house in is 40cm tall, 30cm wide & deep - that thing did cost me 20 bucks without decoration. On the same note, importing those nice Acrylic cages from Adam did cost me not only the price of the cage itself, but also customs - which in the end I could've easily bought 10+ glass cages for.

The ~3mm thick aluminium on top rear and front bottom is something I've never heard any T chew threw so far - not because they can't, but because there's no real point at which they could angle their fangs to start doing it even. Less risk for injury / escapes there, too.

As for ventilation, "cross-ventilation" can be front <> back, but it can also be left <> right - there's no rule for that. The only cages I don't like, despite the fact people use them, are those with only a single point of air-access. Picking up on the example with the room and opening the door in hot summer: You will feel NO difference really. But if you open the door and the window in the room, as well as one on the other side...due to the open door you'll have actual airflow and that's what i.e. Avic experience up in the trees. My opinion and I stand by it.

Thanks for your input, was hoping you'd stop by. If it's simply price, then I wonder why it's more expensive over there compared to glass. Surely I'd think glass is cheaper here than acrylic??

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Glass for life

 

[lunarae]

So I was talking to my dad on the concept of cross ventilation or proper ventilation and the differences when it came to having ventilation in the front and top compared to ventilation on both sides. He stated that both should work just fine. The concept is that with the rising of heat (or the warmer air), that air will go up, and out the top vents while pulling in the cooler air through the bottom as it rises. I would think that this would be accomplished easier with venting at the top rather then the top part of the sides but it may not make a difference. Either way I wanted to throw that out there for what I learned on how it works, the 'science' behind it rather then just the general 'you need cross ventilation' which equals to most as holes on both sides without understanding what process is actually taking place. I also think it would help people understand that just random holes on two sides of an enclosure isn't going to provide as much towards the goal as having them properly placed on the bottom and top. I think also understanding this can help give better advice to new people trying to keep Avic's and giving them advice on how to better their enclosures by understanding the concept of how it's supposed to work, how the air flow is supposed to move, what causes it to move as it were.

 

[Bierschneeman]

.
I know Threadomancy is generally a sin in forums, but This whole thread is worth bringing it back up Because of all the fantastic comments.

I am going through this struggle myself as I am stacking up numerous empty enclosures of MANY varieties so I am prepared when I make my final decision.

One point that was brought up a few times here, but never properly addressed (and sometimes dismissed) is acrylic/plexiglass/plastic. vs glass in the realm of bacteria and mold growth.

These things are all semi porous, whereas glass is not. This provides easy hides for microfauna to live, breed and grow.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A THING. I deal with this as a main concept for why I do what I do when I go to work. The rule of thumb In my line of work is if you end up with an outbreak (mold, yeast, bacteria et cetera[ yes yeast is a fungus]) THROW AWAY EVERYTHING, that is not glass or stainless steel (you can probably include more metals here, but I deal exclusively with med-high grade stainless steel for all sanitary applications at work)

WILL this mean you are more susceptible to an outbreak keeping on the semi porous materials vs glass?
NO

Using these materials will not increase your chances...for the first use. repeated use increases the chances.

HOWEVER if you plan on reusing the material, when you go to clean it out, you will never be able to fully sterilize it. The outbreak will live inside of the porous material (acrylic/plexiglass/plasctic) and then stick around even through harsh chemicals like lye, phosphoric/nitric/paracetic acids or anything else you tried to throw at it. So if it was a bad outbreak, and killed your Tarantula, throw it away. You are putting every future resident of that enclosure at risk (risk, not a sure thing) If its a glass enclosure, scrape the silicone out and apply more. (I do this with every terrarium I reuse).

But calm down, I am not trying bring the fear of god. If it wasn't going to hurt the first Tarantula, might not hurt the second? But the outbreak will be at a high risk of coming back just by virtue of not being able to get rid of it with traditional methods.

NOTE: I am a noob when it comes to Tarantulas, But I am a professional in the field dealing with Microfauna, and I have made lots of terrariums over a few decades.

 

[Minty]

Oh, i forgot you live next door to me. You know the climate very well. But no YOUR wrong, my year round humidity is between 48 and 78% inside my house, unless my expensive humidity guage isn't calibrated to Viper standards, that is. Never had a issue with my Mantids drying out in basically the same setup. Once i know the humidity requirements for said species, i can mimic them no issue at all.....Not sure what your problem is, wanting to make smart comments to everything, everyone says but maybe you should hold your tongue cause you dont know all that you think you know. STOP TRYING TO PROVE EVERYONE THAT IS BELOW AN ARACNOKING WRONG!!!!!!. your attitude can go back to the stable it came from.

*you're

I'm the UK and definitely not european but i suppose that place is close enough for me to comment.

The UK is in Europe.

 

[boina]

HOWEVER if you plan on reusing the material, when you go to clean it out, you will never be able to fully sterilize it. The outbreak will live inside of the porous material (acrylic/plexiglass/plasctic) and then stick around even through harsh chemicals like lye, phosphoric/nitric/paracetic acids or anything else you tried to throw at it. So if it was a bad outbreak, and killed your Tarantula, throw it away. You are putting every future resident of that enclosure at risk (risk, not a sure thing) If its a glass enclosure, scrape the silicone out and apply more. (I do this with every terrarium I reuse).

But calm down, I am not trying bring the fear of god. If it wasn't going to hurt the first Tarantula, might not hurt the second? But the outbreak will be at a high risk of coming back just by virtue of not being able to get rid of it with traditional methods.

NOTE: I am a noob when it comes to Tarantulas, But I am a professional in the field dealing with Microfauna, and I have made lots of terrariums over a few decades.

That is a typical American way of looking at it - many Europeans probably will either die laughing or get very upset. Around here many people, me included, will tell you to never, ever, ever sterilize an enclosure. They'll tell you to go out and use dirt from the forrest and untreated wood to seed your enclosure with microfauna. If you have a healthy microfauna in your enclosure you are much less likely to get any pathogens in there because pathogens will be outcompeted before they can take hold. In a sterile enclosure they'll jump in and multiply to their little hearts content. I'm a microbiologist, btw, so I deal with microfauna, too.

I never, ever sterilize terrariums I reuse, ever, and I don't plan on starting that. Even my snakes get untreated wood from my garden.