Avics/Cross Ventilation-- European vs USA Husbandry?

[bryverine]

Well does the material have something to do with it perhaps? not necessarily with airflow but perhaps humidity? I mean acrylic/plastic compared to glass. It would be interesting if someone could get two exact setups made, same number and placement of holes and such. And do treatment for both exactly the same and see how the humidity levels hold inside. Perhaps acrylic requires the cross ventilation because of how it holds humidity compared to glass?

I suppose acrylic like plastics is more hygroscopic where glass is pretty solid on a molecular scale. So there might be a fair amount of truth to this. Not sure how to quantify it though.

 

[viper69]

Wow, I go away for a while and the thread becomes a battleground full of assumptions from @jrh3 hahaah this is quite funny to me. :wideyed:

Jr. I will address your comments and hopefully you will see where I am coming from. I honestly don't know how you assumed so much (it's really like crazy/funny/amazing), BUT only reading text it's clearly possible, as I've done it myself hahahaha

I hope you don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm only trying to correct what are erroneous assumptions on your part, nothing personal mind you, just being objective.

Oh, i forgot you live next door to me. You know the climate very well. But no YOUR wrong, my year round humidity is between 48 and 78% inside my house, unless my expensive humidity guage isn't calibrated to Viper standards, that is. Never had a issue with my Mantids drying out in basically the same setup. Once i know the humidity requirements for said species, i can mimic them no issue at all.....Not sure what your problem is, wanting to make smart comments to everything, everyone says but maybe you should hold your tongue cause you dont know all that you think you know. STOP TRYING TO PROVE EVERYONE THAT IS BELOW AN ARACNOKING WRONG!!!!!!. your attitude can go back to the stable it came from.

I do know the climate very well where you live. However, what I don't know is your financial/living situation. When I wrote my response about the A/C drying out the air, if you will recall, I asked if you even had central A/C? Why did I ask that? Because I didn't want to assume that you did have it. I know some people in Alabama that don't have A/C at all in their home. So when I read your post about the humidity, I thought "maybe he doesn't have A/C and that's why he mentioned the humidity". See my thinking was if you didn't have A/C then your home/apt would in fact be very humid. Alternatively, if you had A/C and used it like I did in the summers then your air would be very dry your home/apt.

I don't know what the fascination of the title Arachnoking has to do with anything. It has no bearing on any person's level of T experience here. Do you know how I and others obtained that title? Or how others obtained Arachnopeon title? It's based on the number of posts if I recall correctly, potentially length of time here too, I'm not sure. I certainly didn't take a T Experience Test hahah. So a person could come to this forum, and post about ANYTHING, it doesn't have to be intelligent. I, you or anyone else, could join today and post over 2,500 answers of "Yes", and they too would have the same title of Arachnoking.

OR, one could join the forum, have 30+ years of experience and never or BARELY post and have the title of Arachnopeon, but have more experience than most on this forum.

Lastly, one's title does not in any way determine if I agree/disagree with anyone, why? Because I put ZERO importance on those titles for the very reason/examples I gave above. In fact, it was over a year ago, when I knew less than I know now that I strongly disagreed with Poec who has significantly more experience than myself. His profile's title was higher than my own.

this whole thread was created because you wanted to prove someone wrong.

This is absolutely wrong. It was created because I have long wondered why there's a difference in tarantula container designs, and tarantula husbandry (I believe) for some species between USA and European. If you think I have the interest AND the time to write a long post so I can prove people wrong you are crazy. I don't have the interest NOR the TIME. I'm very busy.

nope, viper is always taking swings at new guys.

Not true at all. The forum here has changed considerably over its existence. It used to have many senior T keepers and new people. When I first joined there were A LOT of people, breeders especially, who I learned A LOT from. In the very recent past as the hobby has increased in popularity, thankfully, there are a lot of NEW people to tarantula keeping on the forum. Naturally they have the most questions (eg how many threads/questions have you seen from Poec?), and naturally they think/say things that are often factually wrong simply because they are new. I know I certainly did when I kept my first T. I was no different. This isn't knowledge we are born with .

So, as a result of there being an influx of NEW people, there's an increase in my responses so they don't make the same mistakes I did. Now, because I have limited time and my own personality, I tend to say things succinctly at times, and often quite bluntly. Is it the best approach, not always. People like Luna have realized that. Do I try to be less blunt, at times yes, such as in my responses to you; this reply is the longest forum reply I have ever taken the time to write for ANY forum :wideyed::wideyed:. I could be much more blunt but that would only tune you out I suspect.

louis dont believe me? why was this thread created cause viper quoted what i said to another thread that cross ventilation is important for avic in our area. and according to stanley a. schultz book TKG, i am correct, and everyone else that asked about avic, Viper has told them you need cross vent, but when a noob tells someone its an issue? i guess we all fall under what viper says.....trust me im not a minion.

JR. I have no idea what thread you are talking about. I didn't look at some thread and create this one for some ulterior motive.

I've been thinking about the very question I asked for OVER a year now on and off. It's only recently when a post came up, I THINK from Chris, our Italian T hobbyist, indicating acrylic containers were not common in Europe (news to me as I knew of a British T dealer/breeder who made them a few years ago, if you want his info let me know), and looking at Louise's videos that I decided to post this question.



So there you go Jr. I hope this clears your misconceptions you had, and if it doesn't, well I can't control that. This is the MOST amount of time I have ever dedicated to typing a reply to clear a series of errors/assumptions on ANY forum...LIKE WOW!

Have a great day, I know I am!!

 

[viper69]

Another reason I'm paranoid about trying to do any other Avics until I learn more and have more experience. There's just so many variables that seem to come into play.

Don't worry Luna, I made some mistakes with A. versicolor. I waited a few years to focus on the animal itself as opposed to increasing my collection size, and in parallel read/asked more questions about Avics.

The one thing I found helpful was once I felt I was ready, I bought a larger Avic. 2" DLS, they are more "owner-proof" at that size than as little slings. Don't give up on this genus if you like them, they are very interesting.

 

[lunarae]

Don't worry Luna, I made some mistakes with A. versicolor. I waited a few years to focus on the animal itself as opposed to increasing my collection size, and in parallel read/asked more questions about Avics.

The one thing I found helpful was once I felt I was ready, I bought a larger Avic. 2" DLS, they are more "owner-proof" at that size than as little slings. Don't give up on this genus if you like them, they are very interesting.

Oh don't worry I haven't given up on them at all. I love the arboreals. I just feel I need to take some time to focus on my A. versicolor till it's older and get more experience with T's in general before I try getting more of the more delicate T's.

 

[viper69]

Oh don't worry I haven't given up on them at all. I love the arboreals.

Excellent!!!!! You can never have too many Avics!

 

[jrh3]

Wow, I go away for a while and the thread becomes a battleground full of assumptions from @jrh3 hahaah this is quite funny to me. :wideyed:

Jr. I will address your comments and hopefully you will see where I am coming from. I honestly don't know how you assumed so much (it's really like crazy/funny/amazing), BUT only reading text it's clearly possible, as I've done it myself hahahaha

I hope you don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm only trying to correct what are erroneous assumptions on your part, nothing personal mind you, just being objective.




I do know the climate very well where you live. However, what I don't know is your financial/living situation. When I wrote my response about the A/C drying out the air, if you will recall, I asked if you even had central A/C? Why did I ask that? Because I didn't want to assume that you did have it. I know some people in Alabama that don't have A/C at all in their home. So when I read your post about the humidity, I thought "maybe he doesn't have A/C and that's why he mentioned the humidity". See my thinking was if you didn't have A/C then your home/apt would in fact be very humid. Alternatively, if you had A/C and used it like I did in the summers then your air would be very dry your home/apt.

I don't know what the fascination of the title Arachnoking has to do with anything. It has no bearing on any person's level of T experience here. Do you know how I and others obtained that title? Or how others obtained Arachnopeon title? It's based on the number of posts if I recall correctly, potentially length of time here too, I'm not sure. I certainly didn't take a T Experience Test hahah. So a person could come to this forum, and post about ANYTHING, it doesn't have to be intelligent. I, you or anyone else, could join today and post over 2,500 answers of "Yes", and they too would have the same title of Arachnoking.

OR, one could join the forum, have 30+ years of experience and never or BARELY post and have the title of Arachnopeon, but have more experience than most on this forum.

Lastly, one's title does not in any way determine if I agree/disagree with anyone, why? Because I put ZERO importance on those titles for the very reason/examples I gave above. In fact, it was over a year ago, when I knew less than I know now that I strongly disagreed with Poec who has significantly more experience than myself. His profile's title was higher than my own.




This is absolutely wrong. It was created because I have long wondered why there's a difference in tarantula container designs, and tarantula husbandry (I believe) for some species between USA and European. If you think I have the interest AND the time to write a long post so I can prove people wrong you are crazy. I don't have the interest NOR the TIME. I'm very busy.




Not true at all. The forum here has changed considerably over its existence. It used to have many senior T keepers and new people. When I first joined there were A LOT of people, breeders especially, who I learned A LOT from. In the very recent past as the hobby has increased in popularity, thankfully, there are a lot of NEW people to tarantula keeping on the forum. Naturally they have the most questions (eg how many threads/questions have you seen from Poec?), and naturally they think/say things that are often factually wrong simply because they are new. I know I certainly did when I kept my first T. I was no different. This isn't knowledge we are born with .

So, as a result of there being an influx of NEW people, there's an increase in my responses so they don't make the same mistakes I did. Now, because I have limited time and my own personality, I tend to say things succinctly at times, and often quite bluntly. Is it the best approach, not always. People like Luna have realized that. Do I try to be less blunt, at times yes, such as in my responses to you; this reply is the longest forum reply I have ever taken the time to write for ANY forum :wideyed::wideyed:. I could be much more blunt but that would only tune you out I suspect.





JR. I have no idea what thread you are talking about. I didn't look at some thread and create this one for some ulterior motive.

I've been thinking about the very question I asked for OVER a year now on and off. It's only recently when a post came up, I THINK from Chris, our Italian T hobbyist, indicating acrylic containers were not common in Europe (news to me as I knew of a British T dealer/breeder who made them a few years ago, if you want his info let me know), and looking at Louise's videos that I decided to post this question.



So there you go Jr. I hope this clears your misconceptions you had, and if it doesn't, well I can't control that. This is the MOST amount of time I have ever dedicated to typing a reply to clear a series of errors/assumptions on ANY forum...LIKE WOW!

Have a great day, I know I am!!

my apologies, i took you the wrong way. i will put this behind me and foward on look at things in a positive way. I do have central A/c btw, lol. but dont have the drying out issue. but im also keeping the dish full every other day. and thanks for the lengthy post. made my day better as we speak,

 

[tonypace2009]

Experiment. Iam also curious about the airflow difference could probably use smoke (without tarantula in enclosure) at the lower intake of enclosure to see if it is pulled into enclosure and how much? Mabe on our diy enclosures we need to put holes lower on one side and higher but not all the way to the top on another side curious to see a improvement in air flow. Air tends to travel up not as much left to right with out a outside assistance. Also single pane glass transfers tempature through it easier than plastic wich will also affect air current. Also curious to what exactly killing avics in a stale air environment is it to much water vapor? Tarantula not being able to separate higher water quanities from the air in there lungs lower oxygen level or are they actually slowly drowning from to much water vapor or could it even be bacterial infection in there lungs? Has anyone dissected a avic that has died from stale over moist air to check booklungs for a answer? I wonder if live plants would be beneficial for avics. How many keep there avics in live plant enclosures with out issues? The live plants should create higher oxygen levels in enclosure. Experiments and questions I won't be able to sleep until I get the answers. Lol

 

[viper69]

my apologies, i took you the wrong way. i will put this behind me and foward on look at things in a positive way. I do have central A/c btw, lol. but dont have the drying out issue. but im also keeping the dish full every other day. and thanks for the lengthy post. made my day better as we speak,

No problem Jr. we all do it at some point, ie assume, I know I have!! Well I'm glad you have A/C hahaha. No offense taken trust me. Yeah my place was pretty dry.

I'm glad I could help make your day better and clear up anything. Besides I know someone that keeps mantids, chams and Ts can't be all that bad! Cham keepers unite!

Experiment. Iam also curious about the airflow difference could probably use smoke (without tarantula in enclosure) at the lower intake of enclosure to see if it is pulled into enclosure and how much? Mabe on our diy enclosures we need to put holes lower on one side and higher but not all the way to the top on another side curious to see a improvement in air flow. Air tends to travel up not as much left to right with out a outside assistance. Also single pane glass transfers tempature through it easier than plastic wich will also affect air current. Also curious to what exactly killing avics in a stale air environment is it to much water vapor? Tarantula not being able to separate higher water quanities from the air in there lungs lower oxygen level or are they actually slowly drowning from to much water vapor or could it even be bacterial infection in there lungs? Has anyone dissected a avic that has died from stale over moist air to check booklungs for a answer? I wonder if live plants would be beneficial for avics. How many keep there avics in live plant enclosures with out issues? The live plants should create higher oxygen levels in enclosure. Experiments and questions I won't be able to sleep until I get the answers. Lol

The smoke sounds like a good idea to me, but I know next to nothing in that are of science.

I hope Apho drops in on this one because s/he reads more about T physiology and may be able to speculate or provide an answer to your physiology questions. Air in a rain forest isn't musty, I've been to one. It's just humid. You may be right, it may have something to do w/their book lungs. I really am not sure..

Louise-- Do you see a lot of EU keepers use live plants w/Avics. I don't see it too often over here.

 

[lunarae]

Louise-- Do you see a lot of EU keepers use live plants w/Avics. I don't see it too often over here.

I know I'm not Louise, but I do live in the US. Well I've avoided saying anything cause I'm paranoid about my set up right now. (Specially after A. purpurea) But I have a set up in a 2.5 glass gallon tank for my 1.5-2" A. versicolor that has live plants.

This set up consists of:

• NEHERP LDL: Lightweight Drainage Layer Substrate
• Black screen mesh
• NEHERP Vivarium Substrate "Original"
• Springtails and White Dwarf Isopods also bought from NEHERP
• Parlor Palm (The one that spans all the way to the door)
• Bonsai Umbrella Tree (The more bushy one in the back)
• Water Dish
• Bark Hide

I only have ventilation in the front through the acrylic door. Several vent holes, moisture doesn't build up (Collect on the walls) inside but it holds a level of humidity because of the substrate and the plants. Right now she's in premolt so wont leave her hide but she is very responsive when I have checked her in the past. (I did this a little bit cause I got all panicky after A. purpurea and everyones statements with that).

However she seems happy and healthy. I have become very paranoid about the lack of cross ventilation and I'm considering redoing the whole thing, temporarly rehousing so that I can have my dad drill holes in the glass for me but I would like to know the results of this conversation and I really am wondering if the material makes a difference or not. As well as the plants, I do wonder if because I have the live plants in there if that is why she seems to be doing just fine. Regardless though I don't want to try and rehouse her until she molts. She's refused food for a little over a month now.

 

[viper69]

I know I'm not Louise, but I do live in the US. Well I've avoided saying anything cause I'm paranoid about my set up right now. (Specially after A. purpurea) But I have a set up in a 2.5 glass gallon tank for my 1.5-2" A. versicolor that has live plants.

This set up consists of:

• NEHERP LDL: Lightweight Drainage Layer Substrate
• Black screen mesh
• NEHERP Vivarium Substrate "Original"
• Springtails and White Dwarf Isopods also bought from NEHERP
• Parlor Palm (The one that spans all the way to the door)
• Bonsai Umbrella Tree (The more bushy one in the back)
• Water Dish
• Bark Hide

I only have ventilation in the front through the acrylic door. Several vent holes, moisture doesn't build up (Collect on the walls) inside but it holds a level of humidity because of the substrate and the plants. Right now she's in premolt so wont leave her hide but she is very responsive when I have checked her in the past. (I did this a little bit cause I got all panicky after A. purpurea and everyones statements with that).

However she seems happy and healthy. I have become very paranoid about the lack of cross ventilation and I'm considering redoing the whole thing, temporarly rehousing so that I can have my dad drill holes in the glass for me but I would like to know the results of this conversation and I really am wondering if the material makes a difference or not. As well as the plants, I do wonder if because I have the live plants in there if that is why she seems to be doing just fine. Regardless though I don't want to try and rehouse her until she molts. She's refused food for a little over a month now.

Well this is interesting. I'd be concerned about the flow of air too, but what the Europeans do works quite well. Perhaps if you rehouse you will do a EU style home? Or an ExoTerra, if you go ExoTerra just replace the screen w/acrylic lid with drilled out holes so you have top and front air flow.

I don't think glass vs acrylic makes any relevant difference as people have successfully bred many Avic species in both types materials, does it affect other things? I don't know. If anything, glass is really inert and likely affects the environment the least over acrylic, if at all.

I do love NEHERP. They have the best diversity of supplies I've seen so far. Another that comes to mind is BlackJungle also very good, if still in business. I believe NEHERP is the only outfit that lists the actual diameter of cork tubes so you really know what you are getting. At least I haven't seen anyone as detailed as they are in that dept.

 

[louise f]

I can tell this much. i dont use live plants at all, only plastic. I know some are using live plants here.

 

[tonypace2009]

The smoke sounds like a good idea to me, but I know next to nothing in that are of science.

I hope Apho drops in on this one because s/he reads more about T physiology and may be able to speculate or provide an answer to your physiology questions. Air in a rain forest isn't musty, I've been to one. It's just humid. You may be right, it may have something to do w/their book lungs. I really am not sure..

Louise-- Do you see a lot of EU keepers use live plants w/Avics. I don't see it too often over here.

The biggest influence on air movement is the sun creating thermal just heating a surface causing the air to rise faster. A rain forest with high canopies and less sun light available to the ground level the air is slower to rise and create a lot of air movement create more humidity at ground level but there is a lot of surface area closer to the tops of the trees that do get more sunlight therefore more air movement high in the canopies. Curious to the difference in humidity at ground level and the tops of trees? My way of thinking on live plants is more air flow to counter the higher moisture content of the substrate add live plants to create a more oxygen rich environment. This also seems by design to lead to larger enclosures in which I personally favor for aborials. But then again it hasn't been established the exact reason avics die from stale air environments so we change what we can controlle easiest which leads to lots of cross vent holes and dry substrate with no live plants and a water bowl which is proven to work.This works but is it the best setup for avics?

 

[Yanose]

or perhaps they are extra sensitive to co2 and their own respiration poisons them with out proper air flow. I can throw out a number of theories but have not concrete answers to this question I can only say from keeping Avics for many years they do not like dead air it is the bane of Avics. They live in trees there is no dead air up in a tree.

 

[lunarae]

Well this is interesting. I'd be concerned about the flow of air too, but what the Europeans do works quite well. Perhaps if you rehouse you will do a EU style home? Or an ExoTerra, if you go ExoTerra just replace the screen w/acrylic lid with drilled out holes so you have top and front air flow.

I don't think glass vs acrylic makes any relevant difference as people have successfully bred many Avic species in both types materials, does it affect other things? I don't know. If anything, glass is really inert and likely affects the environment the least over acrylic, if at all.

I do love NEHERP. They have the best diversity of supplies I've seen so far. Another that comes to mind is BlackJungle also very good, if still in business. I believe NEHERP is the only outfit that lists the actual diameter of cork tubes so you really know what you are getting. At least I haven't seen anyone as detailed as they are in that dept.

I want to do an Exoterra with the screen top replaced with acrylic as the end game enclosure for our A. versicolor. I really like the design that they have. I have an over all design in mind that would be rather complex with a large enclosure that I want to do eventually so it's a really pretty display piece that happens to also be liveable for a T to inhabit it but that's still long term in the making. Its one of those things I think would be really fun to work on and put together but I'm well aware it's not at all necessary for the T to be able to survive. And it's not something I plan to do for every single T I get.

And I love NEHERP as well. Very nice customer service and I love the information they've provided on proper vivarium care and creation. I really enjoy having live plants in with my set up's/enclosures. I've set up another for the G. porteri that I haven't put it in yet but it has succulants in it so that they don't require a lot of watering and when I do water them I use a food injector so the top stays dry. I haven't put the T in it yet, still seeing how the succulants do over time before I do. So far they seem to be doing just fine though. I need to make the acrylic top with plenty of ventilation then it'll be ready for the G. porteri once it finally molts. ^.^

 

[Yanose]

you also have to realize that the diffence in temps between the canopy and ground level will cause heat transfer and thus air movement. this is why a rain forest while humid is not dank and stale and musty but clean and moist like fresh rain fall

with exoterra the only problem i have is one of my exoterras has a very stubborn spider that made its home on the door and will not move it.

 

[lunarae]

with exoterra the only problem i have is one of my exoterras has a very stubborn spider that made its home on the door and will not move it.

lol. It does it just cause it knows it bugs you. Just like mine stopped eating meal worms the moment I started breeding them to save on money. XD

 

[tonypace2009]

I know I'm not Louise, but I do live in the US. Well I've avoided saying anything cause I'm paranoid about my set up right now. (Specially after A. purpurea) But I have a set up in a 2.5 glass gallon tank for my 1.5-2" A. versicolor that has live plants.

This set up consists of:

• NEHERP LDL: Lightweight Drainage Layer Substrate
• Black screen mesh
• NEHERP Vivarium Substrate "Original"
• Springtails and White Dwarf Isopods also bought from NEHERP
• Parlor Palm (The one that spans all the way to the door)
• Bonsai Umbrella Tree (The more bushy one in the back)
• Water Dish
• Bark Hide

I only have ventilation in the front through the acrylic door. Several vent holes, moisture doesn't build up (Collect on the walls) inside but it holds a level of humidity because of the substrate and the plants. Right now she's in premolt so wont leave her hide but she is very responsive when I have checked her in the past. (I did this a little bit cause I got all panicky after A. purpurea and everyones statements with that).

However she seems happy and healthy. I have become very paranoid about the lack of cross ventilation and I'm considering redoing the whole thing, temporarly rehousing so that I can have my dad drill holes in the glass for me but I would like to know the results of this conversation and I really am wondering if the material makes a difference or not. As well as the plants, I do wonder if because I have the live plants in there if that is why she seems to be doing just fine. Regardless though I don't want to try and rehouse her until she molts. She's refused food for a little over a month now.

Cross ventilation is just ensuring that air is pulled across enclosure air typically wants to travel pretty much strate up unless there is some type of cross current involved. I am not sure but a plant creating more oxygen rich environment may also contribute to more air movement?

 

[lunarae]

Cross ventilation is just ensuring that air is pulled across enclosure air typically wants to travel pretty much strate up unless there is some type of cross current involved. I am not sure but a plant creating more oxygen rich environment may also contribute to more air movement?

I'm not sure. I mean I do believe that they have to contribute to better air quality, so I wonder if that's the only reason that my versi is doing ok in her current set up is because of the live plants. Or if it's only a matter of time before it's to much for her. It's why I'm trying to figure out if I need to move her out or not. Regardless because she's in premolt (Least I assume she is, wont eat and that seems to be the only indicator she is) I haven't tried to rehouse her to fix the lack of cross ventilation cause I don't want to overly stress her out in the process.

 

[Yanose]

any thing that produces a gas will create pressure pressure will create movement so ya a live plant would likely aid in a small way with air flow.

 

[tonypace2009]

any thing that produces a gas will create pressure pressure will create movement so ya a live plant would likely aid in a small way with air flow.

High co2 poisoning sounds valid especially since they tend to live in dense foliage up in the canopy the foliage would convert a lot of the co2 to oxygen in there natural habitat. So even if live plants were to only add a little to air movent there ability to exchange co2 to oxygen makes live plants more beneficial in a avic enclosure. This is interesting. I also wonder if there is a way to diagnose high co2 levels in tarantula haemolymph?