Avics/Cross Ventilation-- European vs USA Husbandry?

[Belegnole]

I have been very suspicious of the "cross ventilation" concept ever since getting back into T's. Everywhere else the term means something a bit different than how it is used in this community. Ventilation relies on air movement and air does not move horizontally by itself much in a closed environment. A system with a lower exchange of air with the outside environment would be easier to control as far as humidity is concerned. But, if a greater exchange is needed for say fresh air, a larger quantity of vents/holes would be required. The area in one of these North American Systems that is above the vents allows for a "micro environment" as I have seen commented on numerous times. That would be in some ways easier to keep a stable high humidity area than the "european" method. However many experienced keepers have also noted that Avics in particular have a great need for fresh, non stagnant air. In which case the method used more often in Europe would be more advantageous.

I find the whole topic interesting and admit that in the past found it more difficult to keep specimens that required higher humidity levels than my house had, especially in the summer. Since my last venture into this hobby I have noticed that in particular the emphasis on humidity has reduced in many cases. For instance spraying/misting has now been determined to be detrimental. While using a larger source of fresh water and or wetting the substrate has become the predominate means of introducing moisture.

My take at this point is that the best enclosure for any given species will vary to an extent on the keepers environment and their overall keeping style. Multiple types of setups work as long as the keeper makes sure that the enclosures environment suits the specimen. Obviously both of the systems being discussed here work.

 

[jrh3]

I have been very suspicious of the "cross ventilation" concept ever since getting back into T's. Everywhere else the term means something a bit different than how it is used in this community. Ventilation relies on air movement and air does not move horizontally by itself much in a closed environment. A system with a lower exchange of air with the outside environment would be easier to control as far as humidity is concerned. But, if a greater exchange is needed for say fresh air, a larger quantity of vents/holes would be required. The area in one of these North American Systems that is above the vents allows for a "micro environment" as I have seen commented on numerous times. That would be in some ways easier to keep a stable high humidity area than the "european" method. However many experienced keepers have also noted that Avics in particular have a great need for fresh, non stagnant air. In which case the method used more often in Europe would be more advantageous.

I find the whole topic interesting and admit that in the past found it more difficult to keep specimens that required higher humidity levels than my house had, especially in the summer. Since my last venture into this hobby I have noticed that in particular the emphasis on humidity has reduced in many cases. For instance spraying/misting has now been determined to be detrimental. While using a larger source of fresh water and or wetting the substrate has become the predominate means of introducing moisture.

My take at this point is that the best enclosure for any given species will vary to an extent on the keepers environment and their overall keeping style. Multiple types of setups work as long as the keeper makes sure that the enclosures environment suits the specimen. Obviously both of the systems being discussed here work.

thats my whole take on this, it all depends on your environment what is needed to mimic the Avicularia habitat. im in southern usa so this means higher humidity in my area. i use lots of cross ventilation and it works good.

 

[viper69]

thats my whole take on this, it all depends on your environment what is needed to mimic the Avicularia habitat. im in southern usa so this means higher humidity in my area. i use lots of cross ventilation and it works good.

Do you have central air and decent insulation? If so, your A/C will dry out air in the house. Unless of course you keep your Avics outside in some fashion, pretty hot and humid in Prattville!

 

[jrh3]

Do you have central air and decent insulation? If so, your A/C will dry out air in the house. Unless of course you keep your Avics outside in some fashion, pretty hot and humid in Prattville!

Oh, i forgot you live next door to me. You know the climate very well. But no YOUR wrong, my year round humidity is between 48 and 78% inside my house, unless my expensive humidity guage isn't calibrated to Viper standards, that is. Never had a issue with my Mantids drying out in basically the same setup. Once i know the humidity requirements for said species, i can mimic them no issue at all.....Not sure what your problem is, wanting to make smart comments to everything, everyone says but maybe you should hold your tongue cause you dont know all that you think you know. STOP TRYING TO PROVE EVERYONE THAT IS BELOW AN ARACNOKING WRONG!!!!!!. your attitude can go back to the stable it came from.

 

[jrh3]

this whole thread was created because you wanted to prove someone wrong.

 

[jrh3]

louis dont believe me? why was this thread created cause viper quoted what i said to another thread that cross ventilation is important for avic in our area. and according to stanley a. schultz book TKG, i am correct, and everyone else that asked about avic, Viper has told them you need cross vent, but when a noob tells someone its an issue? i guess we all fall under what viper says.....trust me im not a minion.

 

[lunarae]

nope, viper is always taking swings at new guys.

I dunno about taking swings at new guys. They've commented on my stuff and offered advice in the past. I always took it as they are just naturally a blunt and sarcastic person rather then take anything personally. Did they lack tact? Yes. And perhaps your post did pose the question that inspired them to make the thread but I doubt it was a personal attack against you. To be honest I think it's a very valid inquiry to consider. After all you do realize that by posing the question they are essentially trying to see if the way THEY have cared for their avics may actually be the wrong way to go about it even in their experience. Its not about proving anyone right or wrong, it's about finding what's best for the T's far as I can see it.

Besides that the person you quoted originally to back your belief in cross ventilation had actually brought it into question in the first place pointing out some of the flaws with the concept and then went and spoke about how outside climate seemed to come into play in their care giving requirements more so then any type of cross ventilation requirements. Basically they stated more HOLES needed to come into play to provide more ventilation rather then specifying cross ventilation specifically being a requirement.

I'm not about to say cross ventilation is or is not necessary as I don't have enough personal experience (I've had one live without it, and One die without it, exact same enclosure and same care), but it can't be argued that things are working with the set ups they have in Europe and they have a variety of climate types over there just as we do here. Just as the cross ventilation can't be argued as working here either. So it's not like you're wrong either.

I will say though I've had several experienced keepers tell me that the information in the TKG is outdated and a revision is being worked on so you can't take that as the say all be all. Information and knowledge changes as we learn more, if what your doing works then that's great but it doesn't mean it's the only answer either. There's so many variables out there to consider for everyone's individual experiences with individual species to know exactly what is the best factors when keeping Avic's still from what I've seen with all the information I've gathered on the subject. It's why I wont get another Avic until I have a lot more experience with T's in general. I worry enough about my A. versicolor now after the A. purpurea passed.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Once i know the humidity requirements for said species, i can mimic them no issue at all...

Well, we do our best, man, that's granted, but replicate our animals (Theraphosidae in this case) original enviroment parameters is impossible.

 

[jrh3]

Well, we do our best, man, that's granted, but replicate our animals (Theraphosidae in this case) original enviroment parameters is impossible.

i will agree with that. you cant replace the environment but you can make it comfortable enough to where they wont have any issues.

 

[BobBarley]

Oh, i forgot you live next door to me. You know the climate very well. But no YOUR wrong, my year round humidity is between 48 and 78% inside my house, unless my expensive humidity guage isn't calibrated to Viper standards, that is. Never had a issue with my Mantids drying out in basically the same setup. Once i know the humidity requirements for said species, i can mimic them no issue at all.....Not sure what your problem is, wanting to make smart comments to everything, everyone says but maybe you should hold your tongue cause you dont know all that you think you know. STOP TRYING TO PROVE EVERYONE THAT IS BELOW AN ARACNOKING WRONG!!!!!!. your attitude can go back to the stable it came from.

I don't want to start an argument, but the point of this thread is not to prove people wrong. It's to figure out why Europeans have had success with raising and breeding Avics in a different fashion then most of us Americans have.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

It's to figure out why Europeans have had success with raising and breeding Avics in a different fashion then most of us Americans have.

Well, as far as i remember -- didn't happened to me because i'm not into "Avics" <-- oh the heresy had only one in 1992 (Jesus Christ, i'm old) but traded fast for join the "Psalmos" cult -- here on Italian forums we've had people concerns about "Avics" deaths etc not a lot like here, but the hobby in Italy was (and still is today) always a niche sort one, laws of numbers. Less "Avics", less people in the hobby, basically very few beginners (we were more or less 200 back then, no internet, old school great advices given directly first hand by sellers that were breeders as well).

So this probably helped a bit, but not sure.

About the enclosures i don't remember the use here of those type of food plastic jars that you guys use sometimes, and that btw seems to work well IMO. Glass here was/is the way, even if KK and storage style enclosures are present.

But i don't know, except for that said, any much.

 

[Poec54]

Well does the material have something to do with it perhaps? not necessarily with airflow but perhaps humidity?

Another factor is the air in our houses: the temp, humidity, air movement and how much fans, open windows, furnaces, and a/c are used.

 

[lunarae]

Another factor is the air in our houses: the temp, humidity, air movement and how much fans, open windows, furnaces, and a/c are used.

Another reason I'm paranoid about trying to do any other Avics until I learn more and have more experience. There's just so many variables that seem to come into play.

 

[peterUK]

I'm the UK and definitely not european but i suppose that place is close enough for me to comment.

I keep all of my Avics in tall (13inch x 5inch x 5 inch) 5 litre plastic jars with holes starting just above the substrate level on each corner and then approx every 2 inches upward and then the same in the middle of each side plus 12 in the lid.
That makes 8 vertical lines spread approx 2 inches apart.
I use approx 2 inches of top soil/peat substrate in a 50/50 mix that is kept dry and I NEVER mist or wet the jars contents in any way.
Water is supplied in a 4oz deli container and changed weekly.

I have a cheap digital temp/humidity gauge purely for the temperature readout as it is placed on top of my extractor fan thermostat so that I can check it at a glance.
The humidity in my spider shed is variable depending if it is raining or not, in general the humidity reading by the gauge is between 40% and 65% but can rise slightly to 75% if it rains for prolong periods.
If i had to say a weekly/monthly humidity average then it would be 45-50%

Last year I had 7 successful Avic sacs . . 5 x versicolor, 1 x metallica, 1 x peru purple
So far this year I have had 1 x successful versicolor sac plus 4 x versicolor sacs that are with the females now plus 1 x diversipes and successful with 2 x P irminia and 1 x p pulcher plus 1 x P irmina and 1 x P pulcher sac's made last night . . . all of which are kept the same as the Avic's in the 5 litre jars

 

[jrh3]

I'm the UK and definitely not european but i suppose that place is close enough for me to comment.

I keep all of my Avics in tall (13inch x 5inch x 5 inch) 5 litre plastic jars with holes starting just above the substrate level on each corner and then approx every 2 inches upward and then the same in the middle of each side plus 12 in the lid.
That makes 8 vertical lines spread approx 2 inches apart.
I use approx 2 inches of top soil/peat substrate in a 50/50 mix that is kept dry and I NEVER mist or wet the jars contents in any way.
Water is supplied in a 4oz deli container and changed weekly.

I have a cheap digital temp/humidity gauge purely for the temperature readout as it is placed on top of my extractor fan thermostat so that I can check it at a glance.
The humidity in my spider shed is variable depending if it is raining or not, in general the humidity reading by the gauge is between 40% and 65% but can rise slightly to 75% if it rains for prolong periods.
If i had to say a weekly/monthly humidity average then it would be 45-50%

Last year I had 7 successful Avic sacs . . 5 x versicolor, 1 x metallica, 1 x peru purple
So far this year I have had 1 x successful versicolor sac plus 4 x versicolor sacs that are with the females now plus 1 x diversipes and successful with 2 x P irminia and 1 x p pulcher plus 1 x P irmina and 1 x P pulcher sac's made last night . . . all of which are kept the same as the Avic's in the 5 litre jars

nice setup, and basically you keep them the way we do in america,( or let me be exact, most of us do in america). once again it comes down to the enviroment that the cage is in and what is needed to create a micro climate.

 

[Yanose]

basically when liquid evaporates the vapor goes up if all your venting is in the top of the enclosure you lose a lot of moisture however if your venting is in the walls some where cross or other wise it keeps a controlled amount of vapor in the enclosure i.e. humidity with out allowing it to become too stuffy most of the glass enclosures I have seen have some kind of air flow through the front where the door is very similar to though not exactly like the cross venting you see in acrylic enclosures. mainly seems like avics can not stand dead air dry or wet stagnate air is not their friend. I have always kept my avics on the dryer side with a water dish seems to work for me

 

[louise f]

louis dont believe me? why was this thread created cause viper quoted what i said to another thread that cross ventilation is important for avic in our area. and according to stanley a. schultz book TKG, i am correct, and everyone else that asked about avic, Viper has told them you need cross vent, but when a noob tells someone its an issue? i guess we all fall under what viper says.....trust me im not a minion.

Yeah whatever. KALI MAHHH

 

[cold blood]

For the Europeans utilizing these enclosures, how are you keeping them other wise?

I assume that, because of the differences in enclosures, that you are not keeping them predominantly dry, like so many of us over here do as our enclosures obviously have less airflow.

I also assume (correct me if I am wrong) that this type of enclosure would require more of a damp set up, and I attribute this as to why so many here are under the impression that damp sub and 80% humidity is required...I am betting that this is much more important for your type enclosures, while ours are different and the same conditions you require in those enclosures, will kill them in ours, and visa versa.

 

[Yanose]

For the Europeans utilizing these enclosures, how are you keeping them other wise?

I assume that, because of the differences in enclosures, that you are not keeping them predominantly dry, like so many of us over here do as our enclosures obviously have less airflow.

I also assume (correct me if I am wrong) that this type of enclosure would require more of a damp set up, and I attribute this as to why so many here are under the impression that damp sub and 80% humidity is required...I am betting that this is much more important for your type enclosures, while ours are different and the same conditions you require in those enclosures, will kill them in ours, and visa versa.

this line of reasoning seems logical to me i know in my exoterra that is modified. in order to keep it from getting to dry I over water the dish a bit more often in those enclosures

 

[darkness975]

This may or may not be related, but here goes: plastic/acrylic holds more bacteria overall than glass. Especially if it is moist. Could that be at least a POSSIBLE factor on this issue or am I way off?