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i believe if you read closely, takenlate was simply trying to see if the female would accept the male, which i think he proved. scroll to the top of the thread.
Are you as bothered about this as much as I am
- Thread starter Nitibus
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Ya you're right but this whole thread discussion is on the breeding some else did with 2 different species of pokies.
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How you are so confident in that, I'll never know.
We don't even have a clear definition of what a 'species' is.
Interspecific hybrids occur in all classes of animals. Mammals, Fish, Birds, Invertebrates.... can you provide one that doesn't?
What makes mygalamorphs so special?
Yes, I'll give you that hybridizing does often end up with infertile eggs/sterile offspring. It does not make it impossible.
Why don't you read this thread-
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=29843&highlight=fertile+hybrid And tell me you know more then these guys, to state what you've said as FACT?? haha..
-Sean
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I think that, whit Tarantulas becoming more popular and less feared, it will become like any other pet trade.
You'll have bastard breeds that anyone can get and experiment with; and then you'll have pedigree breeds, kept by careful and dedidaced enthusiasts who will
breed pure species (BTW, I doubt that people would cross anything rare/endangered/valuable) and keep those breeds pure for ecological purpose (we might be able to reintroduce some...)
As for Avics getting crossbred, I think that many species are so closely related that we shouldn't bother that much with classifiing them. Some of them have less difference between them than the differences we have between some human groups (like Finnish vs Australian aborigines-this not implies that one is better than the other) and think
of the many breeds of Canis familiaris- the Chihuahua and the Danish classified together as the same specie....:?
You'll have bastard breeds that anyone can get and experiment with; and then you'll have pedigree breeds, kept by careful and dedidaced enthusiasts who will
breed pure species (BTW, I doubt that people would cross anything rare/endangered/valuable) and keep those breeds pure for ecological purpose (we might be able to reintroduce some...)
As for Avics getting crossbred, I think that many species are so closely related that we shouldn't bother that much with classifiing them. Some of them have less difference between them than the differences we have between some human groups (like Finnish vs Australian aborigines-this not implies that one is better than the other) and think
of the many breeds of Canis familiaris- the Chihuahua and the Danish classified together as the same specie....:?
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Nitibus....seems like this has turned around to bite you in the butt didnt it. THE NEW OWNER WAS AWARE OF THE SITUATION! What if i had to sell it because i needed the cash?? Not everyone in this world are very wealthy. Get over it...and no one cares. And from what i can see most the people who replied see nothing wrong with it.
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As long as the hybridization is honestly represented and documented, I have zero problem with it.
Some of you people need to open your mind and close you mouths at times. Just because someone does something different does not equate to evil.
Some of you people need to open your mind and close you mouths at times. Just because someone does something different does not equate to evil.
That's a problem within itself. We as hobbists should be preserving these remarkable creatures, in their natural form. With the taxonomy alway in much debate, this will further dive or hobby into obscurity.
I hope it doesn't get the point where we only have one species of tarantula left, some docile mogrel species that has been inbred for so long it can't sustain itself without captivity...
How do you document it, if you cross and sell off the T ?
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My best bet is don't sell them to amatuers, sell them to professionals and scientists studying this kind of stuff!
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That is exactly what I was looking for. The Biological Species Concept by Mayr/Hennig. If you ask me the linked thread gives more credence to my argument. While other concepts are out there, The BSC is the one that was used to prove the separation of morphologically indeterminent species of Ts that are recognised right now.
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To my knowledge, the Mayr/(Henning) concept of species is still unproven yet widely accepted.
It, and what you've stated, is not fact.
Mating seperate species of very closely 'related' species is very possible we know. However, it is unproven whether or not all offspring of such crossbreedings are or aren't sterile.
-Sean
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what I said originally was wrong, sorry. I have corrected it.
If they are so closely related , such that they are subspecies, they can have viable young. The BSC is used still to determine the separation of species that cannot be determined by morphorogical identification. True Hybrids are sterile. I learned that from Volker von Wirth and Code Monkey.
This kind of thread comes up every so often and I forget not to try and put this excepted fact out there. I don't think I can convince you, for what ever reason. I'll stop.
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Really? I hadn't quite read it was such a confirmed idea. If you read this thread Chip, can you elaborate a bit on this?
Apparently there is something I've missed David, if what you're saying is such a fact, I'll back down. But I don't believe so.
-Sean
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Sterile hybrids=nature don't want them. They'll die and that's it.
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whould it be posible to breed a mexican red knee and a pink toe??
once my pink toe maturs i think im going to try it.
ill name it.. hmm the pink red knee turatula
once my pink toe maturs i think im going to try it.
ill name it.. hmm the pink red knee turatula
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I hope you were kidding lol, cause as stated earlier in this thread, its almost if not impossible to breed a T of a different genus.
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Hybrids...
I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen this debate drag on animal hobby boards with two sides at the beginning and two sides at the end with neither side caving in. I have done studies on hybridization on several animal groups, and natural hybrids are common in nature. I personally enjoy a "pure" specimen, pure being completely a matter of perception. When I bred birds, I read a study that a breeder did on three conure species from S. America, all three very similar in shape and habits and the only real visual difference was the amount of green and yellow plumage. When these conures are paired in captivity, they will readily interbreed to the point that most captive lines are polluted. However, in the wild where all three ranges overlap, the species will NOT interbreed and always choose a mate of their own species. You can't tell me that the genus Brachypelma, mostly black spiders with varying degrees of red, were not at one time one or two very similar species. They just broke off into their own niches and became distinctive types. But how different are they genetically?
My point is the term "pure" is relative.
I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen this debate drag on animal hobby boards with two sides at the beginning and two sides at the end with neither side caving in. I have done studies on hybridization on several animal groups, and natural hybrids are common in nature. I personally enjoy a "pure" specimen, pure being completely a matter of perception. When I bred birds, I read a study that a breeder did on three conure species from S. America, all three very similar in shape and habits and the only real visual difference was the amount of green and yellow plumage. When these conures are paired in captivity, they will readily interbreed to the point that most captive lines are polluted. However, in the wild where all three ranges overlap, the species will NOT interbreed and always choose a mate of their own species. You can't tell me that the genus Brachypelma, mostly black spiders with varying degrees of red, were not at one time one or two very similar species. They just broke off into their own niches and became distinctive types. But how different are they genetically?
My point is the term "pure" is relative.
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At the risk of making everyone moan because the topic has been re-dredged up from the pits of the Arachnoboards archives...
From what I can see, we have two factions who are warring over something which is hypothetical.
My understanding of a 'species' (and a brief text-book search kinda vindicated me) is that they shouldn't NATURALLY be able to breed, and produce viable offspring of either gender. We're not, obviously talking about a natural phenomenon, given the stacks of perspex boxes we keep these spiders in.
There are a large number of 'higher' animals which are interbred and are perfectly well catalogued. Dogs, cats, etc all come with pedigrees on them. Maybe it's time that this started to happen in the Tarantula world. That will all depend on the consumer. Supply and demand, right?
Personally, I don't have much problem with interbred spiders. I'm still not convinced that they're different species if they can interbreed successfully. Expecially in the Pokie case... don't their territories overlap heavily in the wild? That would imply to me that they can interbreed naturally.
And there is no point arguing this on a 'purity' level either. There isn't a good genetic definition of a 'species', and genetic variation in a group of animals or plants is normally a good thing, in the wild (again, we're not in the wild). This could well be one of the mechanisms which was used by evolution to make the spiders so successful. Diversification, while retaining the ability to interbreed.
I don't think there's a good ethical reason for not allowing interbreeding, although I'm keeping an open eye/ear for a good one, and I'm happy to be argued on the point. It seems, however, that this is really going in circles.
From what I can see, we have two factions who are warring over something which is hypothetical.
My understanding of a 'species' (and a brief text-book search kinda vindicated me) is that they shouldn't NATURALLY be able to breed, and produce viable offspring of either gender. We're not, obviously talking about a natural phenomenon, given the stacks of perspex boxes we keep these spiders in.
There are a large number of 'higher' animals which are interbred and are perfectly well catalogued. Dogs, cats, etc all come with pedigrees on them. Maybe it's time that this started to happen in the Tarantula world. That will all depend on the consumer. Supply and demand, right?
Personally, I don't have much problem with interbred spiders. I'm still not convinced that they're different species if they can interbreed successfully. Expecially in the Pokie case... don't their territories overlap heavily in the wild? That would imply to me that they can interbreed naturally.
And there is no point arguing this on a 'purity' level either. There isn't a good genetic definition of a 'species', and genetic variation in a group of animals or plants is normally a good thing, in the wild (again, we're not in the wild). This could well be one of the mechanisms which was used by evolution to make the spiders so successful. Diversification, while retaining the ability to interbreed.
I don't think there's a good ethical reason for not allowing interbreeding, although I'm keeping an open eye/ear for a good one, and I'm happy to be argued on the point. It seems, however, that this is really going in circles.
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Not much risk, this was started yesterday.
Yes very ethical just kill something for no reason at all. how bout you just not do it. Each one of those slings in a living breathing creature you are not it's "gods" you should look up the word ethical.