Are we demonising O/W's?

[RezonantVoid]

I read the title as "are we demolishing O/W's?" and was like i damn well hope not

 

[Vanessa]

I have no problem with mentioning the medical significance of OW venom and the need for caution around them. But the blanket statement that "all OW's have medically significant venom" is inaccurate (as far as anybody knows) and I think it would better if we stated all OW's should be treated as Medically significant. I mean my Neochilobrachys sp. thailand might be harmless or it might be the most venomous spider in world, but since there are no bite reports and so little data on this species I'll never know for sure.

Have you visited the health websites of every single country in the world that tarantulas are found in? Ones like this that are put out by poison control centers - Tarantula Bites and Scorpion Stings? Have you gone through every single paper written about tarantula venom in every single language?
What you mean is that you personally haven't come across the information yourself, with the limited research that you've done, not that the information doesn't exist - two totally different things. Even going through the anecdotal bite reports of this forum will show you that old world bites are far more serious on average than new world are.
Had you read the paper that I posted, before I posted it here? Have you read the Live Science journal article below? It is not 'as far as anybody knows' it's as far as YOU know, using only this forum as a resource.
So yes, that makes your statements argumentative for the sake of it, because there is plenty of information about tarantula venom - both scientific and anecdotal.
Some Tarantula Bites More Harmful Than Thought

 

[RowanFG]

We're talking science here, where "nitpicking" is a virtue, not a vice. And it's hardly nitpicking to point out that a statement presented as fact is based on no real evidence. It would be no different if someone said "all NW bites are no worse than a bee sting" while there is evidence that's not true. And yes, you would have to prove there are NO exceptions to make that that statement factual, which is why I say that OW's should be treated as medically significant, not that they are medically significant. While I personally treat all OW's as medically significant that does not mean I assume they really are.

I prefer to observe and report. If you can find someone stupid enough......I mean brave enough to allow themselves to get bit I would be happy to sit back and take notes.

It is not the same as comparing to NW venom as we already have venom profiles of Psalmos. We know they contain a capsaicin like substance that causes the burning sensations that is reported with their bites. Both observable and testable data prove this.

And no, in science you do not need to prove there are NO exceptions to make and validate a hypothesis.

 

[Vanessa]

We're talking science here, where "nitpicking" is a virtue, not a vice. And it's hardly nitpicking to point out that a statement presented as fact is based on no real evidence.

Due to the research being done on the pharmacological potential of tarantula venom, there are plenty of scientific resources for information on Theraphosidae venom. Is this going to be another thread where some people go on and on about the science, but ignore/dismiss all the scientific evidence presented because it doesn't substantiate their opinions?

A verified spider bite and a review of the literature confirm Indian ornamental tree spiders (Poecilotheria species) as underestimated theraphosids of medical importance
Pharmacological analysis of Poecilotheria spider venoms in mice provides clues for human treatment
The venom of the East African spider Pterinochilus sp.
An overview of peptide toxins from the venom of the Chinese bird spider Selenocosmia huwena Wang [=Ornithoctonus huwena (Wang)
Pharmacological characterization of venoms from three theraphosid spiders: Poecilotheria regalis, Ceratogyrus darlingi and Brachypelma epicureanum
Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines
Anaphylactic reaction to a spider(Chaetopelma aegyptiaca) bite in a dog
The Venom from Lasiodora sp.: A Mygalomorph Brazilian Spider
Effects of the venom of a Mygalomorph spider (Lasiodora sp.) on the isolated rat heart
Venom of an aggressive African Theraphosidae (Scodra griseipes): milking the venom, a study of its toxicity and its characterization
Venom components from Citharischius crawshayi spider (Family Theraphosidae): exploring transcriptome, venomics, and function
Milking and partial characterization of venom from the Brazilian spider Vitalius dubius (Theraphosidae)
Venomic and pharmacological activity of Acanthoscurria paulensis (Theraphosidae) spider venom
Neuromuscular blocking action of the Theraphosa blondii spider venom
Isolation and characterization of Psalmopeotoxin I and II: two novel antimalarial peptides from the venom of the tarantula Psalmopoeus cambridgei
Spider bite in southern Africa: diagnosis and management
BIOLOGICAL CHARACTERIZATION OF SPIDER(Selenocosmia huwena) CRUDE VENOM
The Neurotoxic Mode of Action of Venoms from the Spider Family Theraphosidae
Mass spectrometric characterisation and quantitation of selected low molecular mass compounds from the venom of Haplopelma lividum (Theraphosidae)
Extraction and partial characterization of venom from the Colombian spider Pamphobeteus aff. nigricolor (Aranae:Theraphosidae)
Analysis of tarantula venom from Grammostola iheringi (Mygalomorphae: Theraphosidae). Purification and biochemical characterization of a toxin (GI-TX1)
Dipteran toxicity assays for determining the oral insecticidal activity of venoms and toxins
Evaluation of antimicrobial, cytotoxic, and hemolytic activities from venom of the spider Lasiodora sp.
The Dangers of Pet Tarantulas
Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists
Clinical consequences of toxic envenomation by spiders

I mean my Neochilobrachys sp. thailand might be harmless or it might be the most venomous spider in world, but since there are no bite reports and so little data on this species I'll never know for sure.

Scientific information on Chilobrachys sp. venom specifically.
Proteomic and peptidomic analysis of the venom from Chinese tarantula Chilobrachys jingzhao

 

[viper69]

We're talking science here, where "nitpicking" is a virtue, not a vice. And it's hardly nitpicking to point out that a statement presented as fact is based on no real evidence. It would be no different if someone said "all NW bites are no worse than a bee sting" while there is evidence that's not true. And yes, you would have to prove there are NO exceptions to make that that statement factual, which is why I say that OW's should be treated as medically significant, not that they are medically significant. While I personally treat all OW's as medically significant that does not mean I assume they really are.


I prefer to observe and report. If you can find someone stupid enough......I mean brave enough to allow themselves to get bit I would be happy to sit back and take notes.

Man, I was only kidding

There really isn’t a lot of scientific research on Ts other than taxonomy primarily. The toxin research is a small portion. It’s picked up but not the majority.

 

[Vanessa]

So I hunted down the information that I was looking for in the paper I listed above - "Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists." - and asked a dear friend to get the paper for me through his institution. While it is not LD50 toxicity amounts, the below information gives us a lot of insight into the venom toxicity of species found in different parts of the world. The species are listed along the bottom and I labeled the graphs for each region.
The results clearly show that African and Asian species killed mice a lot faster than the species found in the Americas.
It also substantiates another discussion I was having off this forum with someone when I theorized that arboreal species seem to have higher venom toxicity than terrestrial - probably due to being elevated and not having the bulk to aid in immobilization that the terrestrial species do.

Reports on the toxicity of tarantula venoms are scattered, many being anecdotal. Tarantulas were originally thought to be potentially dangerous, probably in relation to their impressive size. Bu¨cherl listed eight genera of tarantulas as non-proved dangerous spiders (Bu¨cherl, 1971). However, recent reports of confirmed bites by theraphosids from South America (48 cases) (Lucas et al., 1994) Asia/Africa (4 cases) (Schmidt, 1989), and Australia (9 cases) (Isbister et al., 2003) suggest that they are essentially harmless to humans, most bites resulting in mild to severe local pain, strong itching and tenderness which may persist for several hours after the bite, oedema, erythema, joint stiffness and swollen limbs, burning feelings, and cramps. In more severe cases, strong cramps and muscular spasms, which can last several hours before subsiding, have been observed. The pain following a bite may be due to a combination of mechanical injury from the large fangs, low venom pH (typically pH 5) and effects of biogenic amines (serotonin and histamine), adenosine and ATP (Schanbacher et al., 1973a,b; Chan et al., 1975; Odell et al., 1985; 1987; 1989). The most detailed reports often come from medical poison centres (De Haro and Jouglard, 1998), or the network of pet breeders (http://www.bighairyspiders.com/bites.shtml) as the symptoms are rather well documented. All the anecdotal evidence appears to exclude a vital risk after a tarantula bite although some venoms are clearly more neurotoxic than others (De Haro and Jouglard, 1998). Some bite reports suggest higher toxicity of old world species as well as Sri Lankan and Indian members of the arboreal genus Poecilotheria (Schmidt, 1989; De Haro and Jouglard, 1998), the African arboreals Stromatopelma and Pterinochilus spp. (Freyvogel, 1972), and Asian Haplopelma spp. However, to the best of our knowledge, there is no properly documented case of human death following a tarantula bite. The most severe symptoms noted after Poecilotheria bites involved strong pain (Schmidt, 1989), intense muscle cramps lasting for several weeks, temporary paralysis and a possible case of coma in a German breeder. Stromatopelma spp. bites were also reported to result in cardiac distress. In contrast, seven cases of fatal bites in dogs by Australian tarantulas were reported (Isbister et al., 2003), all by species of spider, which in the same report had caused only mild effects in humans. Tarantula venoms also seem to affect both invertebrates and vertebrates with different potencies, probably in relation to their natural feeding habit

Our results are consistent with reports on envenomation as all Asian species tested, and all African except one, induced death in less than 20 min, while toxicity varied widely across species from the American continents. Another interesting result is the apparent higher toxicity of venoms from arboreal spiders such as Heteroscodra, Stromatopelma and Poecilotheria. Their effects were dramatic and resulted in death seconds after injection. This observation fits with the reported higher toxicity of some of these species, and could correlate with the necessity to rapidly paralyse large, struggling prey in an aerial environment, without using immobilising devices such as webs or silk nets. The extremely fast and massive paralytic activity of the venom can thus be considered an adaptive advantage for tree-dwelling species.

 

[Rhino1]

And then there are the Aussies that have no choice but to get an OW as a beginner. Ready or not.

Yeah and we are all kicking back with our fancy Tarantulas, being like "I don't see what the big deal is" lol.
Without naming names, I was told in a post the other day that our input is pretty much void on this subject because we are a minority. Well, here in Aus we are not a minority.

The invert keeping hobby is the biggest it's ever been here, with hundreds of thousands of keepers/hobbyists now.
It's becoming almost impossible to source what we want, our commercial breeders and suppliers are constantly sold out, that's a lot of newbies starting with OWs, maybe common sense is the key?
Not my thing either, but there's plenty of YouTube vids of Aussies handling OWs too.
Still, I don't see what the big deal is and from our side of the pond it just seems like the same ppl are intent on generating the stigma associated with OWs. Maybe it's just that some ppl that start off with NWs become very complacent and chit themselves when they have to deal with an OW.

 

[Vanessa]

Still, I don't see what the big deal is and from our side of the pond it just seems like the same ppl are intent on generating the stigma associated with OWs. Maybe it's just that some ppl that start off with NWs become very complacent and chit themselves when they have to deal with an OW.

There's that stigma again. That's why people have to keep on asking about being stigmatized over not adding OW species to their collections. That is why people are getting in over their heads... because people are wrongly accusing them of being fearful of these animals and they feel the need to prove themselves to the detriment of the animals and the hobby.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Have you visited the health websites of every single country in the world that tarantulas are found in?

Due to the research being done on the pharmacological potential of tarantula venom, there are plenty of scientific resources for information on Theraphosidae venom.

So I hunted down the information that I was looking for in the paper I listed above - "Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists."

Wow, you sure went to a lot of trouble over a minor point I was trying to make. A point which is still valid, by the way. As new species are discovered all the time it is impossible to ever say ALL OW's are medically significant. I'm sorry if this seems argumentative and by some standards petty, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people make overarching statements without a real basis in fact. I would, at best, say that the majority of OW species are likely to be medically significant.

Scientific information on Chilobrachys sp. venom specifically.

I was referring to genus NEOchilobrachys - completely different genus than Chilobrachys - so info on Chilobrachys venom is not relevant.

Man, I was only kidding

So was I.

 

[Vanessa]

A point which is still valid, by the way.

So, I was spot on when I said that some people were going to go on and on about the science, but completely dismiss the science when it doesn't support their opinion.
No surprise here.

 

[Rhino1]

There's that stigma again. That's why people have to keep on asking about being stigmatized over not adding OW species to their collections. That is why people are getting in over their heads... because people are wrongly accusing them of being fearful of these animals and they feel the need to prove themselves to the detriment of the animals and the hobby.

@Vanessa, yes you do make a valid point and I respect everyone's opinion (as long as it makes sense).
Do you not think in some small way that the stigma associated with OWs is much worse than necessary due to other ppl inciting fear about OWs?
I think it's fair that ppl need to know they can be fast or can be defensive under certain circumstances.
I'm not trying to be a dic about it but is this a case where certain ppl are fearful and hateful towards these beautiful arachnids because they themselves have had a bad experience.
Sort of like how some ppl hate Pitbull dogs simply because they are frightened of them

 

[Vanessa]

@Vanessa, yes you do make a valid point and I respect everyone's opinion (as long as it makes sense).
Do you not think in some small way that the stigma associated with OWs is much worse than necessary due to other ppl inciting fear about OWs?
I think it's fair that ppl need to know they can be fast or can be defensive under certain circumstances.
I'm not trying to be a dic about it but is this a case where certain ppl are fearful and hateful towards these beautiful arachnids because they themselves have had a bad experience.
Sort of like how some ppl hate Pitbull dogs simply because they are frightened of them

Show me one post where someone is being hateful and fear mongering about them.

 

[Rhino1]

Show me one post where someone is being hateful and fear mongering about them.

What? That's not even what I was......ugh don't worry about it.

 

[viper69]

Wow, you sure went to a lot of trouble over a minor point I was trying to make. A point which is still valid, by the way. As new species are discovered all the time it is impossible to ever say ALL OW's are medically significant. I'm sorry if this seems argumentative and by some standards petty, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people make overarching statements without a real basis in fact. I would, at best, say that the majority of OW species are likely to be medically significant.



I was referring to genus NEOchilobrachys - completely different genus than Chilobrachys - so info on Chilobrachys venom is not relevant.



So was I.

Good..for a second I thought we weren't on the same page, which would have been odd.

 

[RowanFG]

What? That's not even what I was......ugh don't worry about it.

I think it's where you said people are hateful and inciting fear:

@Vanessa, yes you do make a valid point and I respect everyone's opinion (as long as it makes sense).
Do you not think in some small way that the stigma associated with OWs is much worse than necessary due to other ppl inciting fear about OWs?
I think it's fair that ppl need to know they can be fast or can be defensive under certain circumstances.
I'm not trying to be a dic about it but is this a case where certain ppl are fearful and hateful towards these beautiful arachnids because they themselves have had a bad experience.
Sort of like how some ppl hate Pitbull dogs simply because they are frightened of them

Nobody hates them except people like my mom. Don't create a non-existent opinion to attack. It's interesting that you mentioned pit-bulls though. The stigmas surrounding them are the result of irresponsible and ignorant owners raising a breed of dog with a bite capable of causing devastating damage. No, not all pitty owners are like that but the bad ones ruined it for everyone else.

You yourself said the hobby is getting more and more popular. Nobody wants bad press. Nobody wants to read about dead dogs or, god forbid, a small child getting bitten by an H. mac or pokie because some idiot doesn't keep them locked away properly. Nobody wants to see legislation.

 

[SonsofArachne]

So, I was spot on when I said that some people were going to go on and on about the science, but completely dismiss the science when it doesn't support their opinion.
No surprise here.

I rated your post as funny because of the irony of you accusing me of doing exactly what you yourself were doing. You cited a lot evidence which I'm sure is valid but does nothing to address my point. You could cite every paper on OW venom in existence and it would not prove that every OW is medically significant. My point again being:
1) there is some evidence of non-medically significant OWs (i.e. Orphnaecus philippinus)
2) not all OW's venom has been tested.
3) it is highly unlikely that all OW species (or even genera) have been discovered.
Conclusion: Saying that ALL OW's are medically significant is not scientifically supported.
And by the way, I highly doubt any the scientists in the articles you cited would claim that "ALL OW's are medically significant", at least not if they wanted to remain in good standing.

People disagreeing with obvious facts are hilarious.

 

[Rhino1]

@RowanFG hmm maybe I'm just biased because I have no other option but to keep OW's.
The venom side of the argument falls on deaf ears, as a keeper/hobbyist/field researcher etc if you're ever putting yourself in a position where your even close to being bitten, then your probs not doing it right.
Common sense is the key imo.