Are we demonising O/W's?

[Cemykay]

I never had the feeling that you guys are demonising any tarantula, be it NW or OW. You just care about the wellbeing of the animal and the keeper who is not aware of the potential of an OW.

 

[Pistolpete]

It’s a really interesting topic. For me, any T would work as a starter.

Generally speaking, I’m a pretty nervous keeper. I’m not scared of my T’s in the slightest but I’m very jumpy around bolting/fast movement which causes me minor concerns.

For this reason, I never want to touch my T’s and will always use catch cups/coaxing methods to get them to move when rehousing etc... Because of my hands off method, an OW would be as practical for me as a NW.

 

[Vanisher]

If a beginner that has no "skills" and no experience about tarantulas, and maybe very nervous around them gets a T albo or B harmori or similair. Later same year he gets a L parahybana, a A geniculata, a N chromatus. And after a year of owning those calm speicies buys a Avicularia, than later a P cancerides P irminia , and have those speicies for say another year, with all that this means of feeding, moistening and rehousing and the overall experience this person gets fom calm relatively slow speicies to fastrr and more defenssive speicies, and THEN gets a P murinus, a P regalis or a H maculata

Compare this with the same beginner getting a P murinus, a P regalis or a H maculata from the get go, and especially if the spider in question is a particulair bolty or defenssive one?

This whole discussion is obvious and stupid to me!

 

[Jesse607]

And then there are the Aussies that have no choice but to get an OW as a beginner. Ready or not.

 

[Vanisher]

Yes, but i am.taking about when somebody have a choice! If a beginner has the choice between a Brachypelma and a Stromatopelma he/she should get the Brachypelma

 

[Vanessa]

Also I see claims that all OW's have medically significant venom, but we do not know that for a fact, and as far as it goes I've seen reports that Orphnaecus philippinus venom is no worse than a bee sting, or your average NW. And before anybody asks, no, I'm not volunteering to find out, just stating a fact.

To make things even more serious surrounding OW tarantula bites, it's been recently discovered that Haplopelma venom can result in skin lesions on top of all the other health concerns associated with their venom toxicity. Meaning that Theraphosidae venom can potentially contain necrotoxins in addition to the already known neurotoxins. This paper deals with one Haplopelma species, but it is likely that the potential spans the entire genus.

Haplopelma hainanum Venom Induces Inflammatory Skin Lesions

I guess by sharing this information I'm just demonizing them further.

 

[Vanisher]

It is like anything else here in life. If you have no experience and dont know how to cook, you dont start with "Cock au vin" You start with learning how to boil eggs.
You dont start with something complicated, you start with the simplest possible

 

[Vanessa]

Hey cold blood....... somebody asked for cockroach suggestions and I sent a reply. Why not go hate on that too? You hated everything else I said so far......

Nobody is hating on you, please conduct yourself in an adult manner. If you do not want to risk receiving negative feedback, then perhaps forums aren't for you.
You are giving extremely poor advice and it is the obligation of the people on this board to mark it with disagree so other people can see that the post contains poor judgement and should not be followed.
If you can't be a good example, then you can act as a warning.

 

[ColeopteraC]

It’s a really interesting topic. For me, any T would work as a starter.

Generally speaking, I’m a pretty nervous keeper. I’m not scared of my T’s in the slightest but I’m very jumpy around bolting/fast movement which causes me minor concerns.

For this reason, I never want to touch my T’s and will always use catch cups/coaxing methods to get them to move when rehousing etc... Because of my hands off method, an OW would be as practical for me as a NW.

Exactly,

I have never handled any of my T’s, if you’re aware that you are a nervous wreck when it comes to 7 inches of pokie bolting around that’s a different story but not every beginner or amateur keeper is a nervous wreck and shouldn’t be treated so. If your even vaguely calm and collected, using long tongs and switching enclosures in a large deep storage box an O/W is nothing to fret about...

Of course they are faster and more energetic than N/W’s. But doesn’t mean they should be locked up with a big warning sign on the front...

 

[RowanFG]

Exactly,

I have never handled any of my T’s, if you’re aware that you are a nervous wreck when it comes to 7 inches of pokie bolting around that’s a different story but not every beginner or amateur keeper is a nervous wreck and shouldn’t be treated so. If your even vaguely calm and collected, using long tongs and switching enclosures in a large deep storage box an O/W is nothing to fret about...

Of course they are faster and more energetic than N/W’s. But doesn’t mean they should be locked up with a big warning sign on the front...

Besides being ridiculously hyperbolic your post misses the point completely. No <edit>if know what you are doing OW's are no big deal. These recommendations are made with the assumption that the beginner knows all about tarantula care. The lowest common denominator type person who does the bare minimum research.

 

[CommanderBacon]

However there are plenty of colourful, hardy O/W species that would make perfect starter T’s if new keepers can cope with their behaviour.

The "if new keepers can cope with their behavior" part is a dramatically more important factor to take into account than the actual ease of care of the T, in my opinion. I don't think we're demonizing OW species so much as trying to make new keepers aware of what they are capable of and prepare them for it. It's a fact that Old World species are faster, more defensive, and their bites have stronger consequences than your average Grammostola, Brachypelma, Tliltocatl, or Aphonopelma that we typically recommend for beginners.

I think that making sure a keeper is aware of the slim margin for error and greater consequences of their mistakes with OW species is the responsible thing to do for both the sake of the keeper and the tarantula.

 

[MintyWood826]

It's making people aware of the very factual and real risks that come with the potential OWs have, not trying to make them look evil.

 

[cold blood]

It's making people aware of the very factual and real risks that come with the potential OWs have, not trying to make them look evil.

Right, im always amazed at how often people take education the completely wrong way on forums.

 

[SonsofArachne]

To make things even more serious surrounding OW tarantula bites, it's been recently discovered that Haplopelma venom can result in skin lesions on top of all the other health concerns associated with their venom toxicity. Meaning that Theraphosidae venom can potentially contain necrotoxins in addition to the already known neurotoxins. This paper deals with one Haplopelma species, but it is likely that the potential spans the entire genus.

Haplopelma hainanum Venom Induces Inflammatory Skin Lesions

I guess by sharing this information I'm just demonizing them further.

I have no problem with mentioning the medical significance of OW venom and the need for caution around them. But the blanket statement that "all OW's have medically significant venom" is inaccurate (as far as anybody knows) and I think it would better if we stated all OW's should be treated as Medically significant. I mean my Neochilobrachys sp. thailand might be harmless or it might be the most venomous spider in world, but since there are no bite reports and so little data on this species I'll never know for sure.

 

[viper69]

would make perfect starter T’s if new keepers can cope with their behaviour.

Except none of them are like that, thus they are not perfect..........

 

[RowanFG]

I have no problem with mentioning the medical significance of OW venom and the need for caution around them. But the blanket statement that "all OW's have medically significant venom" is inaccurate (as far as anybody knows) and I think it would better if we stated all OW's should be treated as Medically significant. I mean my Neochilobrachys sp. thailand might be harmless or it might be the most venomous spider in world, but since there are no bite reports and so little data on this species I'll never know for sure.

This is argumentative for the sake of it. There's enough data about OW venom that you would have to prove the exceptions.

 

[viper69]

so little data on this species I'll never know for sure.

Well if you were dedicated to the cause, you would pick up that T that is cuter than a bucket of kittens and handle it for the sake of the cause. Clearly you are 1 foot in, 1 foot out....

This is argumentative for the sake of it. There's enough data about OW venom that you would have to prove the exceptions.

He's being extremely objective, he's not wrong nor argumentative.

Exactly,

As long as we don’t do anything stupid O/W’s shouldn’t be a problem and don’t deserve the certain stigma generated around them.

This is completely wrong. One doesn't need to do anything stupid in order to get tagged, they are wild animals.

There is not stigma surrounding OWs just FACTS. As a geographical grouping, they have stronger venom, and all the other things we know about them.

What you wrote is absolutely crazy and ignorant. I would read more about OWs if I was you.

I really am thinking that the venoms of this spiders is over exaggerated.

OWs have put grown, men in hospitals (not old people either). This is documented in the medical literature. I know an animal which has venom that changes your hear beating is medically significant, documented in medical literature.

 

[Vanessa]

This is argumentative for the sake of it. There's enough data about OW venom that you would have to prove the exceptions.

Spot on.

 

[RowanFG]

He's being extremely objective, he's not wrong nor argumentative

By argumentative I mean that he was presenting arguments for the sake of nitpicking, not starting a fight.

Anyways, one possible exception to the rule (O. philippinus) only highlights the validity of said rule.

 

[SonsofArachne]

This is argumentative for the sake of it. There's enough data about OW venom that you would have to prove the exceptions.

Spot on.

I mean that he was presenting arguments for the sake of nitpicking, not starting a fight.

We're talking science here, where "nitpicking" is a virtue, not a vice. And it's hardly nitpicking to point out that a statement presented as fact is based on no real evidence. It would be no different if someone said "all NW bites are no worse than a bee sting" while there is evidence that's not true. And yes, you would have to prove there are NO exceptions to make that that statement factual, which is why I say that OW's should be treated as medically significant, not that they are medically significant. While I personally treat all OW's as medically significant that does not mean I assume they really are.

Well if you were dedicated to the cause, you would pick up that T that is cuter than a bucket of kittens and handle it for the sake of the cause. Clearly you are 1 foot in, 1 foot out..

I prefer to observe and report. If you can find someone stupid enough......I mean brave enough to allow themselves to get bit I would be happy to sit back and take notes.