Are we demonising O/W's?

[ColeopteraC]

Hi all!

We all know that as starter T’s, docile N/W’s are recommended over O/W’s due to the fast, defensive and bitey behaviour of said O/W’s. However there are plenty of colourful, hardy O/W species that would make perfect starter T’s if new keepers can cope with their behaviour.

So, have we been demonising O/W’s as little bioweaponised hellspawns that require a minimum of a year of experience beforehand to keep. When in reality, I’ve found them a bit faster, quicker to strike a defensive pose and posess overall stronger venom than the typical gateway T. I can see them as a perfectly acceptable gateway species if you can sensibly deal with their stronger attitude.

I’m aware we still need to warn beginners (especially younger kids etc.) that O/W’s are potentially dangerous, it would be terrible for the tarantula hobby if an uninformed keeper was to be bitten by an OBT and have a negative reaction, yet...

Have we been over-exaggerating the dangerous potential of O/W T’s and should instead present them as suitable gateway or second time tarantulas for those capable and simply advise against anyone with potential allergies, younger children etc. starting of with them?


I’d like to hear your thoughts on this matter...

 

[Ungoliant]

Have we been over-exaggerating the dangerous potential of O/W T’s and should instead present them as suitable gateway or second time tarantulas for those capable and simply advise against anyone with potential allergies, younger children etc. starting of with them?

I don't see too many people "demonizing" OW tarantulas. I do see people explaining (with varying degrees of tact) that the increased potency of their venom, their speed, and their defensiveness make them unsuitable as first tarantulas, especially when there are other options that are readily available.

Some thoughts I have shared before on the topic of beginners with Old World species:

We all make beginner's errors when we are new, and it's best to make those errors with hardy species that are slower, less defensive, and less venomous. Starting with the beginner-friendly species allows you to master the basics of care (especially rehousing) and develop good habits with species that are more forgiving.

Keep in mind that our members vary in age, maturity, tolerance for risk, and prior research. I think it's irresponsible to encourage a minor, for example, to acquire a highly venomous, defensive tarantula. One should also consider who else lives in the home -- people who might have to assist in caring for the tarantula, children who might open an enclosure while unsupervised, other pets that might be killed by the bite of an escaped OW tarantula.

Lastly, for prospective or brand new keepers, I think it is a good idea to verify that your interest in keeping tarantulas is long-term before getting into the hot species. If you decide you no longer want tarantulas in a month or two, it is a lot easier to responsibly rehome a Brachypelma albopilosum than a Heteroscodra maculata.

Ultimately, people will make their own decisions -- sometimes against our advice -- but at least the information is out there for the more thoughtful keeper to heed or discard at his own risk.

Doing research is commendable, but research is not always a substitute for firsthand experience. This is particularly true when it comes to rehousing a fast tarantula that can climb. Watching someone rehouse a Poecilotheria on YouTube and doing it yourself are two different things. If you've already rehoused an Avicularia or a Psalmopoeus, you'll have a better idea of how things can go wrong (and what to do about it).

Just as an anecdote: I remember my first attempt at rehousing a tarantula, an Avicularia avicularia. I didn't have a good plan, and before I knew it, she had bolted up my arm and around to my back. Fortunately, I was able to get the tarantula into her new enclosure, but I can only imagine making that mistake with a Pokie instead of an Avic.

What I am saying is not that no minor is capable of responsibly keeping an Old World tarantula but that, without knowing the person or his circumstances, my default response would be not to recommend OW species to minors, especially ones who are beginners. (The reason I used minors as an example was to highlight the fact that you don't even necessarily know the age of the person posting. It could be a 12-year-old.)

I have the same policy for adults. There are always exceptions, but in general, if a new member comes to the forum as a beginner inquiring about OW tarantulas, I would discourage that. I am not going to assume that a random newbie is particularly careful, a quick study, or doesn't have children or pets that could be harmed by an unexpected encounter with a Pokie.)

Personally, I am not comfortable offering blanket assurances that "you'll be fine if you do your research" (the post to which I was replying) to people I don't know. Because I really don't know for that particular person, so I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I also operate under the assumption that most people want honest information in order to make informed decisions. If I were a novice keeper wanting to buy a Pokie, I'd hope someone would explain why that's not a great idea and offer better alternatives.

 

[Vanisher]

There might be one or another neewbee that has done research and can take care of some more placid OW. But 99% of the neewbees are total nervous and unsecure around tarantulas. And when rehousing, tjey often are very unsecure on the whole thing. And newbee mistakes like wrong set ups and too large ventilation holes, that can make the spider escape. A clear sign are all of the newbee questions that pops up here almost daily. This is not a good thing dealing with an potential defensive fast tarantula with strong venom.Thats why we recommend say a placid T albopilosum with weak venom. Even thoug some OW are calm for beeing OW:s they have much stronger venom and tend to be more bitey than the typical NW beginner speicies.
So OW:s are not demonized at all. Experienced keepers just tell newbees to get experienced before getting a OW

 

[ignithium]

I am thinking that most ppl on here come across as that the OW is scarier and worse than they are, but also I am seeing posts from new keepers on here that make me think probably its bad idea for them to have a fast spider. Personally I dont think its that big of a deal, but I'm keeping mostly hot scorpions and hot snakes so i dont have problem dealing with poecilotheria. People posting here stuff where they seem to be stress themselves out over husbandry for albopilosum etc, i think probably these people are too nervous to deal with OW and its just bad idea. But its not like anyone will die from it so who cares lol

 

[cold blood]

We all know that as starter T’s, docile N/W’s are recommended over O/W’s due to the fast, defensive and bitey behaviour of said O/W’s.

This is incorrect. Old world are to be avoided because of their speed and potential. It's not because they're more defensive or more inclined to bite. This is one of the biggest misconceptions I see repeated on these forms (well everywhere, actually).

the fact is that as we all learn and start out, we are all bound to make mistakes, this is part of the learning process, not just for tarantulas but for everything. it's much smarter to make your mistakes with animals that do not provide a potentially dangerous situation for you, your other pets or your other members of your household.

it's best to learn and make those little mistakes with much more forgiving animals.

 

[14pokies]

No we are not demonizing them at all.. We make keepers aware of the potential higher penalty associated when keeping old worlds or hell even defensive,fast NWs.. None of us want to see anyone get bit by their pet and lose the spark for keeping so early on.

 

[Vanisher]

I recommend against OW for beginner because of a combination of speed, defenssiveness and strong venom. Speed because an experience keeper can better deal with the speed. Defenssiveness becsuse in a situation where the tarantula get a chance to bite, an experienced keeper can better deal with this to, in terms that if the tarantula bites an experienved keeper usally can keep the cool better? A person new to tarantulss maybe in most cases twiches so the tarantula is thrown into the wall and dies

So overall, there are more chances a beginner gets himself and the tarantula in a dangerous situation if starting with a OW VS if an experienced keeper gets one

 

[Vanessa]

No, telling the truth is not demonizing Old World. The reason that they are absolutely not recommended for brand new people, not even one species, is because they have medically significant venom... every single last one of them.
Many New World species, who are classified in the intermediate category, are faster and have far more of a propensity to display defensive behaviour than many OW species. They are considered intermediate because, although they are more challenging, their weaker venom toxicity does not bump them into the advanced category.
I don't know how many times that it needs to be said on this forum - OW are not appropriate for people with little, or no, experience, because they can potentially put you in hospital and kill other animals in the home. That is the absolute truth and trying to dismiss that, or pretend that they don't pose the risks that they do, is irresponsible of anyone in the hobby. It is irresponsible to dismiss the risks, downplay the risks, and to recommend that new people start off with species who are medically significant - despite what your personal experience has been.
When you're dealing with brand new people and medically significant venom the only approach that should ever be taken is what can possibly happen - not what will probably happen.

 

[Asgiliath]

Just the rehouse thing-- they really are no joke. My first two were with C. lividus and P. murinus and if I went in with little to no experience with fast NW T's, I would have honestly been completely unprepared and much less able to keep calm and work slowly: That's just my experience though.

 

[TheLostCartographer]

I think it's less of making the OW's out to be evil and more of experienced keepers wanting people to own them responsibly and to care for the animal's needs. The defensive nature and speed could be an issue to someone who picked one up as a first T, and it could pose a threat to the T's well being also.
I ran into a woman who was looking at buying her very young son (Maybe 10 or 11?) a Singapore Blue as his first T. I asked her if she had alot of experience with OW arboreals and she told me she's owned a rose hair for a while. I was concerned to say the least.

 

[ConstantSorrow]

Speaking strictly as newbie T keeper, I decided against OWs based entirely on their speed and venom. I want to be sure I can safely care for docile NW tarantulas before moving "up the ladder". If I mess up and my B. Hamorii decides to bite me (and that would be MY fault, not the T's), at least I don't have to take a trip to the ER. If it gets away from me while being rehoused, odds are that it should be relatively easy for me to recapture it.

I'm not scared of OW Ts. I just want to be confident in my ability as a keeper before I get one. And I don't feel like they're demonized on here, I just think it's often repeated that they are for keepers with experience. Which I don't have yet. And that's ok.

 

[Paul1126]

I had a Grammostola make a bid for freedom the other day and I thought that was fast

 

[ignithium]

I really am thinking that the venoms of this spiders is over exaggerated. U are realizing of course that there is no risks of allergy to tarantulas venoms and that the venoms itself is really not very much, in relative terms it is much less stronger than say latrodectus sp. which even they do not actually kill people honestly. Even scariest of spiders like atrax sp. and phoneutria sp. has less than a 1% mortality rate when bites is untreated (with 0 medical attentions). So yes it will hurting you if you are bitten by poecilotheria but really is not this much to worrying about. Honestly im more concerned with people will just losing or smashing their spiders if its bolting. Also chance of biting is super low even with people doing stupid thing like handling the spider.

 

[Vanessa]

I really am thinking that the venoms of this spiders is over exaggerated. U are realizing of course that there is no risks of allergy to tarantulas venoms and that the venoms itself is really not very much, in relative terms it is much less stronger than say latrodectus sp. which even they do not actually kill people honestly. Even scariest of spiders like atrax sp. and phoneutria sp. has less than a 1% mortality rate when bites is untreated (with 0 medical attentions). So yes it will hurting you if you are bitten by poecilotheria but really is not this much to worrying about. Honestly im more concerned with people will just losing or smashing their spiders if its bolting. Also chance of biting is super low even with people doing stupid thing like handling the spider.

Please read the bite reports for Poecilotheria before you say that they are exaggerated. No, nobody has died, but being bitten is not the walk in the park you think it is.
Not only do people usually go to the hospital to get pain medication, but they also suffer dizziness and nausea that can last for weeks. In addition, Poecilotheria are known to cause debilitating muscle cramping that can come and go for months after. These are first hand accounts that are accessible to everyone who is researching getting one.
Old World species are not ever to be underestimated. And, if you don't know the potential health concerns of being bitten, then you haven't done enough research to have one.

 

[ColeopteraC]

I’d like to thank everyone’s contributions to the query, everyone is of course different and my smooth(ish ill admit) transition from new to old world t’s is of course not a template.

Of course O/W’s for straight up beginners is likely a disaster waiting to happen however my query was more based upon what I have seen as a slight over exaggeration of O/W capability (not potential). I cannot see a situation in which I would have to put bare skin uncomfortably close to let’s say my poecilotheria to give it ample an opportunity to strike. Even in rehousing, (rehousing should ideally be done in a largeish storage box to prevent anything bolting out of control). If this is such a case has the actual capability of the T been over-exaggerated, not the potential...?

 

[ignithium]

Please read the bite reports for Poecilotheria before you say that they are exaggerated. No, nobody has died, but being bitten is not the walk in the park you think it is.
Not only do people usually go to the hospital to get pain medication, but they also suffer dizziness and nausea that can last for weeks. In addition, Poecilotheria are known to cause debilitating muscle cramping that can come and go for months after. These are first hand accounts that are accessible to everyone who is researching getting one.
Old World species are not ever to be underestimated. And, if you don't know the potential health concerns of being bitten, then you haven't done enough research to have one.

I don't be bitten by anything because I don't do anything stupid, because I am owning venomous snakes that will actually killing you if you are bitten and I'm use same ideas with my spider and other animals too. But just because someone getting pain medication is maybe irrelevant, of course it can hurts but also will bee sting hurts. In fact u are more likely to have systemic response to venoms from vespids. I reading the bite reports and only thing i am seeing that is significance is Scolopendra subspinipes. You may also need pain medications if u are bitten by a pit bull. In fact i really think that pit bulls is more dangerous than poecilotheria.

I have not saying that children should buying poecilotheria or OBT or that im recommend this to anyone. Just i think people reaction to it is too big. I really think its harmless honestly, even I think this about latrodectus

 

[ColeopteraC]

I don't be bitten by anything because I don't do anything stupid, because I am owning venomous snakes that will actually killing you if you are bitten and I'm use same ideas with my spider and other animals too. But just because someone getting pain medication is maybe irrelevant, of course it can hurts but also will bee sting hurts. In fact u are more likely to have systemic response to venoms from vespids. I reading the bite reports and only thing i am seeing that is significance is Scolopendra subspinipes. You may also need pain medications if u are bitten by a pit bull. In fact i really think that pit bulls is more dangerous than poecilotheria.

I have not saying that children should buying poecilotheria or OBT or that im recommend this to anyone. Just i think people reaction to it is too big. I really think its harmless honestly, even I think this about latrodectus

Exactly,

As long as we don’t do anything stupid O/W’s shouldn’t be a problem and don’t deserve the certain stigma generated around them.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

Exactly,

As long as we don’t do anything stupid O/W’s shouldn’t be a problem and don’t deserve the certain stigma generated around them.

A sizable proportion of the people here wouldn't do anything stupid, but unfortunately there are many people elsewhere who buy a pet on impulse without doing any research, and who have little to no experience. It's even worse when a parent buys one of these species for their child, without having any idea what they're getting into. I think it's also important for us to remember what it was like for us when we first started out in the hobby. Think about folks who have just gotten their first or second tarantula, and are posting pictures of incorrect setups, handling their spiders, etc. without knowing any better. These people need to be made aware of the real risks to themselves and their pet, because there is so much misinformation out there. Only the person themselves will know if they're truly ready, but the potential of what could happen is still important for them to know regardless.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

Telling the truth about them isn't "demonising" them. I see more people trying to downplay their capabilities (saying "their venom isn't medically significant" or that "the people who write bite reports are wussies") than over-exaggerate them.

 

[SonsofArachne]

I do think the tendency to exaggerate their defensiveness, especially when it's called "aggressiveness" is a problem. When I first started with T's I had bought both NW and OW t's and I remember hearing all the horror stories about some of the OW's I had. I quickly learned these stories were mostly hype and that in fact that probably led me to be less cautious than I should have been at the time. But still, I now own 49 different species of OW's and have never come close to being bit. Now they can be very boltly, but after keeping huntsman spiders most OW's seem rather slow and placid to me. I fact I would recommend keeping Huntsman as a way to prepare you for any T with bolting tendencies. If you can keep some of the really bolty species like Heteropoda lunula or H. boiei in a enclosure you'll be ready for any T.

Also I see claims that all OW's have medically significant venom, but we do not know that for a fact, and as far as it goes I've seen reports that Orphnaecus philippinus venom is no worse than a bee sting, or your average NW. And before anybody asks, no, I'm not volunteering to find out, just stating a fact.