Animals getting a bad rap/rep

[Outpost31Survivor]

Threatposturing is normal behaviour. My enclosures are what they need to be, I don't harass my spiders, they are fed well and have plenty hiding spots/space. But when I rehouse, even if it is with just the catch cup method, some spiders will always threat posture. It is what they do. It is, in the case of OW, their only defense aside from running so it is normal for them to react this way to any disturbance. Maybe we should start by typing their behaviour as fear, instead of defensiveness or being angry...

I agree the over-sensationalism needs to stop, which is why I hate that Exotics-guy so much because he puts the emphasis on them being angry and mean.

But implying the rest of the people in the hobby/on this forum are doing things wrong because their spiders go into threatposture is ridiculous and uncalled for, and I do not agree with that at all.


That would suck big time for you guys... And for Europe too because it would block imports and exports too!
Do you have a link to an article?

Yes, spider will be spiders, scorpions will be scorpions, and centipedes will be centipedes. They are all living fossils they existed before the dinosaurs and they survived the dinosaurs. Survival and self preservation is coded into their DNA. Its survival of their species.

There can be exceptions to the rules. Temperments can vary between specimens within the same species. Witnessing threat posturing in captive inverts is a healthy normal sign.

We shouldn't give the impression to the young and impressionable that 'invert whispering' can be achievable by properly managing and housing inverts. These former persons I speak of may get all the wrong ideas and hurt themselves and their animals.

 

[basin79]

An extremely well known fable.

The fox and the scorpion

A fox and a scorpion both need to cross a river. The scorpion asks the fox for a ride on his back as she can't swim. The fox refuses saying “no you’ll sting me”. The scorpion replies that she wouldn’t, as it would kill them both. The fox agrees and allows the scorpion to ride on his back. Half way across the river the scorpion stings the fox. As the venom takes hold and the fox starts to struggle he asks the scorpion, “Why did you sting me, now we are both going to drown". The scorpion replies, “I couldn’t help myself, I'm a scorpion and it’s in my nature".

Now while that does sort of paint scorpions in a bad light it does get down to their DNA. In a unfamiliar situation or if they feel threatened they'll obviously sting. It's always a do or die to them. There survival counts on that instinct.

Fight or flight. It's the same for a cricket. If something isn't right the cricket will jump. It might very well jump into danger and die but instinct tells the cricket to engage those legs.

 

[SonsofArachne]

But implying the rest of the people in the hobby/on this forum are doing things wrong because their spiders go into threatposture is ridiculous and uncalled for, and I do not agree with that at all.

Well, that's not what I was implying at all, and certainly not about all keepers. But just as certainly the causes for threat posturing I mentioned (improper housing, poor "handling" technique) do occur among SOME keepers - you only need to watch some of those Youtube videos you mentioned to see it. I'm not sure why you seem to be taking this personally - it wasn't directed at you or any other particular person. And I also said I get threat postures now and then, so I wasn't implying that threat postures are abnormal, but that there are things you can do to mitigate them.

We shouldn't give the impression to the young and impressionable that 'invert whispering' can be achievable by properly managing and housing inverts. These former persons I speak of may get all the wrong ideas and hurt themselves and their animals.

Assuming this was in reference to my posts - first I don't really believe in 'invert whispering' - that intended to be a light-hearted response. But I also think just accepting constant threat posturing from a invert as normal as in "oh well, that's how OW's are supposed to behave" instead trying to find ways to make them feel more secure is dangerous.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

Well, that's not what I was implying at all, and certainly not about all keepers. But just as certainly the causes for threat posturing I mentioned (improper housing, poor "handling" technique) do occur among SOME keepers - you only need to watch some of those Youtube videos you mentioned to see it. I'm not sure why you seem to be taking this personally - it wasn't directed at you or any other particular person. And I also said I get threat postures now and then, so I wasn't implying that threat postures are abnormal, but that there are things you can do to mitigate them.



Assuming this was in reference to my posts - first I don't really believe in 'invert whispering' - that intended to be a light-hearted response. But I also think just accepting constant threat posturing from a invert as normal as in "oh well, that's how OW's are supposed to behave" instead trying to find ways to make them feel more secure is dangerous.

Arachnids are as unpredictable as any other animals. You certainly can not domesticate them. Okay, maybe using certain techniques can lower their threat responses but really they still remain unpredictable. And if pet arachnids always threat posture, who really cares? They are acting naturally and instinctually against a predator namely us. Let's just keep the focus on safety and not complicate the issue.

 

[The Snark]

In a unfamiliar situation or if they feel threatened

And left alone in situ? I suppose the point is harassing animals is an inevitable part of keeping them outside their natural environment, regardless of how benevolent or beneficent you are. You are the enemy and tags are your fault. Finding the best possible methods to cause the animal the absolute minimum is stress is the duty of every keeper.

 

[basin79]

And left alone in situ? I suppose the point is harassing animals is an inevitable part of keeping them outside their natural environment, regardless of how benevolent or beneficent you are. You are the enemy and tags are your fault. Finding the best possible methods to cause the animal the absolute minimum is stress is the duty of every keeper.

Aye aye meat pie. I don't handle. Don't prod or poke my inverts. Yet just taking the lid off an enclosure is a huge deal for some. My Monocentropus lambertoni is extremely defensive and is atarantula that will 99.9% throw up a threat display when I take her lid off. Once she realises there's no danger she settles back down and becomes extremely calm and sloth like. I'll be posting a video of her later and I'll tag you in.

And I know by me recoding her I'm absolutely the 1 who's choosing to enter "her world" and I'd 100% be the 1 to blame should I manage to get bit.

 

[Andrea82]

Well, that's not what I was implying at all, and certainly not about all keepers. But just as certainly the causes for threat posturing I mentioned (improper housing, poor "handling" technique) do occur among SOME keepers - you only need to watch some of those Youtube videos you mentioned to see it. I'm not sure why you seem to be taking this personally - it wasn't directed at you or any other particular person. And I also said I get threat postures now and then, so I wasn't implying that threat postures are abnormal, but that there are things you can do to mitigate them.



Assuming this was in reference to my posts - first I don't really believe in 'invert whispering' - that intended to be a light-hearted response. But I also think just accepting constant threat posturing from a invert as normal as in "oh well, that's how OW's are supposed to behave" instead trying to find ways to make them feel more secure is dangerous.

It was in response to one of ColdBlood's posts, which is why I took it more personally.
There's a clear line, at least for me, between having an animal bejave naturally in an optimal environment, and an animal lashing out because of bad keeping. I agree it is good to evaluate your keeping skills and housing methods and such, but stating that threatposturing or other defensive behaviour is a result of bad keeping is a bad shortcut. Which is why I am making a clear distinction.

And left alone in situ? I suppose the point is harassing animals is an inevitable part of keeping them outside their natural environment, regardless of how benevolent or beneficent you are. You are the enemy and tags are your fault. Finding the best possible methods to cause the animal the absolute minimum is stress is the duty of every keeper.

This.

 

[basin79]

Rather than tagging you into the post in my tarantula thread I'll post it here too @The Snark seeing as it's relevant.

You can see she gave me a threat posture (but didn't stridulate which she usually does) but then later becomes the most relaxed tarantula you'll ever see even though I'm still there recording.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

It was in response to one of ColdBlood's posts, which is why I took it more personally.
There's a clear line, at least for me, between having an animal bejave naturally in an optimal environment, and an animal lashing out because of bad keeping. I agree it is good to evaluate your keeping skills and housing methods and such, but stating that threatposturing or other defensive behaviour is a result of bad keeping is a bad shortcut. Which is why I am making a clear distinction.

This.

Absolutely, the housing should suit the inverts needs, if burrower provide adequate substrate depth, if a terrestrial provide a hide of adequate size that it can retreat to (probably the only exception to that rule that comes to mind is L.parahybana lol), if arboreal provide tall enclosures with climbs/hides. Maintain proper levels of temperature, moisture, and humidity. This is all no brainer though.

 

[basin79]

Absolutely, the housing should suit the inverts needs, if burrower provide adequate substrate depth, if a terrestrial provide a hide of adequate size that it can retreat to (probably the only exception to that rule that comes to mind is L.parahybana lol), if arboreal provide tall enclosures with climbs/hides. Maintain proper levels of temperature, moisture, and humidity. This is all no brainer though.

But enclosures aren't a no brainer when you go beyond the obvious.

For instance I have 2 tarantulas that have transformed with putting them into much smaller enclosures. Now granted the obvious is still obvious. My Poecilotheria tigrinawesseli has a vertical hide and my Cyriopagopus doriae has deep sub but scaling down their enclosures isn't a no brainer.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

But enclosures aren't a no brainer when you go beyond the obvious.

For instance I have 2 tarantulas that have transformed with putting them into much smaller enclosures. Now granted the obvious is still obvious. My Poecilotheria tigrinawesseli has a vertical hide and my Cyriopagopus doriae has deep sub but scaling down their enclosures isn't a no brainer.

What kind of transformation? Basically you need to cater to the species requirements, what they need to lead a healthy stress-free captive life. Mind you, there is always be cleaning, watering (if required), and rehousing done the latter which is neither pleasant for me or the invert obviously. But its questionable whether arachnids are capable of short term memory or not, once I have the enclosure cleaned or the inverts rehoused I take comfort in the fact this whole experience never happened soon after the invert retreats back to its hide. *Said invert breathes the proverbial sigh and destresses and resumes life like nothing ever happened*

 

[basin79]

What kind of transformation? Basically you need to cater to the species requirements, what they need to lead a healthy stress-free captive life. Mind you, there is always be cleaning, watering (if required), and rehousing done the latter which is neither pleasant for me or the invert obviously. But its questionable whether arachnids are capable of short term memory or not, once I have the enclosure cleaned or the inverts rehoused I take comfort in the fact this whole experience never happened soon after the invert retreats back to its hide. *Said invert breathes the proverbial sigh and destresses and resumes life like nothing ever happened*

As in they literally wouldn't leave their burrow or hide. They literally lived in approx a 6 inch long and a 3 inch diameter space.

I moved them into much smaller enclosures and found they still behaved as you'd expect, my pokie took up home in the vertical hide and my Cyriopagopus doriae dug a burrow. But in shrinking their "outside world" they transformed. Both come out now to hunt etcetera.

 

[The Snark]

Ideal environment, hazards removed, all perceived needs cared for. Except...?
-Nocturnal-diurnal cycles
-Biological clock stimulation
-Biorhythm
-Neurological stimulation -> temperature and humidity fluctuatons, setae stimulation, visual, physical (moving the furniture about ring any bells?), triggers (adrenaline rush equivalents) + random
-Muscular stimulation, or lack thereof
-And no doubt a number of factors we don't know about and cannot even fathom. Think a chess game where the board suddenly became 3 dimensional.
Essentially, all the conditions and inputs, both beneficial and detrimental that have made the animal what it is today. Boy in a bubble is life in hell and an evolutionary dead end.

Rather than tagging you into the post in my tarantula thread I'll post it here too @The Snark seeing as it's relevant.

Beautiful animal but I can't help thinking as I watch the video that there is something missing, something lacking, or something that should be lacking. Is this normal behavior or...?

In my mind I always think back on my horse. I gave him what he wanted. Provided what was needed. Allowed him to get out and roam the desert around where he lived. But when I turned him loose to return to the herd he instantly became a completely different animal. Everything that I had taken to be his personality, interests, energetic-ness, everything was quirks that vanished in the first 30 seconds.

 

[basin79]

Ideal environment, hazards removed, all perceived needs cared for. Except...?
-Nocturnal-diurnal cycles
-Biological clock stimulation
-Biorhythm
-Neurological stimulation -> temperature and humidity fluctuatons, setae stimulation, visual, physical (moving the furniture about ring any bells?), triggers (adrenaline rush equivalents) + random
-Muscular stimulation, or lack thereof
-And no doubt a number of factors we don't know about and cannot even fathom. Think a chess game where the board suddenly became 3 dimensional.
Essentially, all the conditions and inputs, both beneficial and detrimental that have made the animal what it is today. Boy in a bubble is life in hell and an evolutionary dead end.

You're correct of course. But the tarantula DOESN'T know they're in captivity. They DON'T know they're safe.

 

[The Snark]

You're correct of course. But the tarantula DOESN'T know they're in captivity. They DON'T know they're safe.

'Knowing' could assume the presence of a pre-frontal cortex. Has or hasn't. But there is something else present in animals we can't even begin to fathom: personalities and traits unique to one particular animal. No two animals act exactly alike and we don't have the slightest clue as to why. So what does or doesn't an animal know about captivity? What is it's perception?

 

[basin79]

'Knowing' could assume the presence of a pre-frontal cortex. Has or hasn't. But there is something else present in animals we can't even begin to fathom: personalities and traits unique to one particular animal. No two animals act exactly alike and we don't have the slightest clue as to why. So what does or doesn't an animal know about captivity? What is it's perception?

Certain animals know full well they're captive. Some don't. That comes down to sheer brain capacity.

Now I won't begin to try and type I know but I do think it's not too far to stretch a tarantula doesn't comprehend they're in captivity.

 

[The Snark]

but I do think it's not too far to stretch a tarantula doesn't comprehend they're in captivity.

Captivity, along with all other perceptions, is relative to the individual animal and each individual responds to it, and all other perceptions, somewhat differently. Some animals demand sameness. Another, perhaps a sibling, demands freedom without restrictions. Infinite variations, even when genes are virtually identical.
As humans we assign the parameters of captivity as we perceive them. Scientifically, this is the very poorest science; a singular point of view using human standards.

MC, our cat, had 6 kittens. 5 acted 'normal kitten' according to what the human perceives as 'kitten'. Eyes closed, cuddled up to mom, kept warm and safe. #6 had it's eyes open within hours and was out exploring before it could walk. Get to it's feet and get it's balance as best it could, leap, pile in, wash rinse repeat. Cuddle, warm, safe and blind not in her cards. So kitten paradigm gets blown out of the water. WTF?
So at best we are reverted to rote thinking: mom nature hates a vacuum. She's going to fill it with Rnd X. Captivity is emulating a vacuum, an unsustainable stasis relative to the rest of the planet.
And I'm getting hopelessly entangled in existentialism this AM.

 

[basin79]

Captivity, along with all other perceptions, is relative to the individual animal and each individual responds to it, and all other perceptions, somewhat differently. Some animals demand sameness. Another, perhaps a sibling, demands freedom without restrictions. Infinite variations, even when genes are virtually identical.
As humans we assign the parameters of captivity as we perceive them. Scientifically, this is the very poorest science; a singular point of view using human standards.

MC, our cat, had 6 kittens. 5 acted 'normal kitten' according to what the human perceives as 'kitten'. Eyes closed, cuddled up to mom, kept warm and safe. #6 had it's eyes open within hours and was out exploring before it could walk. Get to it's feet and get it's balance as best it could, leap, pile in, wash rinse repeat. Cuddle, warm, safe and blind not in her cards. So kitten paradigm gets blown out of the water. WTF?
So at best we are reverted to rote thinking: mom nature hates a vacuum. She's going to fill it with Rnd X. Captivity is emulating a vacuum, an unsustainable stasis relative to the rest of the planet.
And I'm getting hopelessly entangled in existentialism this AM.

You're comparing a cat that needs to be nurtured and has the capacity to learn and be taught to a tarantula?

 

[The Snark]

You're comparing a cat that needs to be nurtured and has the capacity to learn and be taught to a tarantula?

Well, comparing life form A to life form X 3rd beta edition. But you can take it on down to the lowest form of animal. Amoebas 132 through 674,998,665,134,607 all go off and happily divided and do amoeba things. Except amoeba 75633452 that refuses to divide and 97 that promptly died. Maybe 97 was healthy but simply incompatible with the environment, healthy being relative to that exact time, place, salinity, temperature and amount of gamma radiation present from a distant nebula?
Our Lady of infinite variable, hallowed be thy name, thy will be done, thy toilet flushed on earth as it is in Alpha Centauri.

PS JP Sartre may not be the best choice of late night reading material.

Phenomena in Being and Nothingness
In the introduction, Sartre describes the reasons for its rejection of the Kantian concept of noumenon. Kant distinguishes the phenomena, objects of sense experience, noumena, things in themselves whose knowledge escapes us. Against Kant, Sartre argues that the emergence of a phenomenon is pure and absolute. The noumenon is inaccessible, it just is not there. The appearance is the only reality. From this starting point, Sartre argues that the world can be seen as an infinite series of finite appearances. Such a perspective helps eliminate dualisms of classical philosophy, especially the dual indoor / outdoor.

Consciousness is what allows the world to exist. Without it, there would be no objects, no trees, no rivers, no rocks, just be. Consciousness is always intentional, it is consciousness of something. Consciousness is the world and made it happen as a world conscience.

 

[SonsofArachne]

This is all no brainer though.

Not on Youtube. Or Facebook.