Aggressive/Defensive terminology...food for thought

[ctsoth]

As a beekeeper the debate sometimes comes up regarding aggressive vs. defensive behavior. I think bee behavior is better understood than tarantula behavior, primarily because of the massive amount of study that honey bees have seen... Usually the debate is brought back up by a newcomer of the hobby...

Bees never go out of their way to attack you, it is always because of a stimulus that you provide. Some strains are calm enough that you can open up a hive with no smoke and work the bees without much commotion in the hive. Other strains are so defensive that even approaching the hive can prove quite dangerous, and working the bees is nearly impossible. For example a very calm hive can turn incredibly defensive if the hive becomes queenless... I found that out last summer...

I bring this up because in both cases the bees show defensive behavior, just impressively different amounts of it. I think that tarantula behavior can be classified in exactly the same way. Varying degrees of defensive behavior. I think that calling them aggressive would be prescribing them with more intelligence, and a degree of maliciousness which they do not possess.

Edit: There are numerous stimuli that determine even a arthropods level of defensive behavior. For example, working a hive in all black clothes after drinking a cup of coffee while breathing directly on the bees the night after a skunk was scratching the hive all night would bring about a terrible result even from the calmest of hives....

An insect or arachnid may present behavior that seems aggressive to you, or lacking in provocation, but just because you are not aware of the provided stimulus does not mean that it does not exist...

 

[jr47]

snakes are the same. in ten years i was biten more than a few times. never once would that of happened if the snake could of gotten away. it happened because they felt threatened. i also had boa's that were as tame as a dog and others that would coil and strike before you got to the cage. it doesnt matter what your dealing with, they will all react in a defensive mannor when they feel threatened. some are quicker to do so. t's do not go looking for something to attack unless they are feeding.
as far as the origanal point was here i agree. if i had set down and read through these forums before i purchased a t i may not of ever bought one. which is what some are trying to say here. that we need to think a little on the impression we make on others. which i may be wrong but i think was the point trying to be made here. if people in the hobby are talking like t's are evil little killers then what are others that are already misinformed suppose to think.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

ShadowBlade - Very good post!

hcsk8ter -

The retailer will tell you a certain T is aggressive to make it known that caution should be used with a certain species and to try and curtail lawsuits as well.

Yes and often enough we hear here how little they actually know about them and/or about keeping them.

ctsoth -

An insect or arachnid may present behavior that seems aggressive to you, or lacking in provocation, but just because you are not aware of the provided stimulus does not mean that it does not exist...

Very good point!

 

[DrAce]

Language, and trying to assign words

First, let me reassure all those out there that I agree, the best word to use is 'defensive'. It is by far and away the best word for the task at hand.

However, I think your attempts at getting those who mis-assign the behavior as aggressive to defensive will fail miserably, making this whole discussion a null and void.

Meaning shifts. It shifts constantly and unpredictably and history shows that it is beyond the power of any authority to control it. Words embody what is in people's heads, rather than the other way round. People have in their heads that the spider is aggressive. That's the word they will use.

I think you're better off biting your tongue when you read the posts and just letting it go. As for the word aggressive seriously affecting the hobby, I'm not actually convinced that it will, although I understand the concern. Do you really think that the label of 'aggressive' will adversely affect those who already fear spiders? I'm not convinced that it will, although I'm not particularly convinced that it won't either...

 

[DrAce]

what a lot of pompous twaddle i am keeping out of this one

I really object to being told that I'm pompus and talking twaddle. I think it's the hight of rudeness to label people in that way.

If you want to keep out of this one, by all means, keep out. But do NOT label me, little man, lest you fall short of my pen.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

However, I think your attempts at getting those who mis-assign the behavior as aggressive to defensive will fail miserably, making this whole discussion a null and void.

Ofcourse it's going to fail if you measure success in reaching all people who could be affected in and outside the hobby. But by changing the attitude on this board or at least teaching out a workable definition to it, we here can make a difference in at least not enforcing that bad image and it also gives all hobbyists a tool to work against that bad image when they encounter it outside.

 

[DrAce]

Oh, go for it. I really think you should.

But the new members will have no idea, and I just don't think that what you are proposing will work long term. I'm not trying to be nasty or get your back up. I just think that it's not likely to work.

That all being said, I'm completely behind you.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Oh, go for it. I really think you should.

But the new members will have no idea, and I just don't think that what you are proposing will work long term. I'm not trying to be nasty or get your back up. I just think that it's not likely to work.

That all being said, I'm completely behind you.

Hehe... I'm certain it's going to be a continouus effort and it's certainly never gonna look like there is any result, but I for one think that any result will be long term. Also I don't think that it matters if 1000 or only 10 get made aware of the definition, 1 is already a good effort, but I doubt it will stay there so there is always enough motivation to carry on defining it the better way.

Edit: Lets also say, if this thread was made a sticky, all people comming in here would obviously be made aware of the problem, and that's all that is needed - awareness.

 

[Scott C.]

....However, I think your attempts at getting those who mis-assign the behavior as aggressive to defensive will fail miserably, making this whole discussion a null and void.....

The OP will be happy if even one person wises up, so I'd say that tips the scales a bit toward success.... I agree though that trying to manipulate the mob's usage of language is futile.

 

[phil jones]

I really object to being told that I'm pompus and talking twaddle. I think it's the hight of rudeness to label people in that way.

If you want to keep out of this one, by all means, keep out. But do NOT label me, little man, lest you fall short of my pen.

you do not know me LITTLE man and thank god i do not know you and i am happy to say i am not in your country LOL and that the best bit have a nice day LOL

 

[DrAce]

you do not know me LITTLE man and thank god i do not know you and i am happy to say i am not in your country LOL and that the best bit have a nice day LOL

I've moved this argument into private messages. FYI, I'm having a great day, thanks.

 

[edesign]

(edit: decided not to feed the troll... )

And yes, as I said I'd be happy if even one person came away with the correct usage of the terms after reading this thread. Do I think I can influence everyone? No...but I DO think that if everyone on this forum who has been reading it for more than a month began to start correcting newbies about the use of the word that it IS possible to change the terminology applied. A lot of people come away from these forums with a new found knowledge about this hobby and not just from a caretaking standpoint.

If people, especially newcomers, see that using the word "aggressive" is frowned upon by the AB community it is more than possible that the term will fall out of favor and move more towards "defensive". There will always be newcomers who will use the "aggressive" term because they simply do not know better...but that is what THIS forum is for...bettering everyone's knowledge about these misunderstood creatures.

The attitude that "it will never change enough people to matter" is exactly why the American government is in the pitiful quagmire that it is...people are apathetic, they don't think that they can make a change but they are wrong. Start at the local level and elect officials who are "good" people, Congressional members do not just wake up one morning and run for Congress...they work their way up through the political ranks. Same deal with this terminology...start at the AB forum level, with luck it catches on and maybe spreads to the BTS and ATS forums...and the Venom List...and so on. Eventually there will be more people using the correct word than there is now...maybe not EVERYONE, but as I said...some is better than none.

 

[DrAce]

Look, again, I am behind you 100 %.

 

[hcsk8ter]

This post is getting redundant. For all you wordsmiths out there, whether you use the term "defensive" or "aggressive" the meaning is clear in this community:

Whatever label you want to give T's of this nature, they are creatures, in general, with exceptions, which find interaction with humans unpleasant and therefore react in a certain way.

Since we would seem the Goliath to these tiny Adams to call them anything but defensive would be ridiculous. No tarantula would actively hunt an animal of our size. Once you open their enclosure and you appear to be a giant predator, they are immediately the defender of their domain even if they jumped out of the enclosure and bit you repeatedly. To even think that a tarantula would stalk a human being is preposterous.

At this point I find the discussion more of a literary pissing contest. End of story.

 

[edesign]

so glad you decided to join in the pissing contest, we're giving trophies to the top 3 (and thanks for reiterating what most of us have been saying even if you consider yourself redundant at this point )

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Cool! What's my score Josh? What's my score??? C'mon, tell me!! *nag-nag* :}

 

[phil jones]

This post is getting redundant. For all you wordsmiths out there, whether you use the term "defensive" or "aggressive" the meaning is clear in this community:

Whatever label you want to give T's of this nature, they are creatures, in general, with exceptions, which find interaction with humans unpleasant and therefore react in a certain way.

Since we would seem the Goliath to these tiny Adams to call them anything but defensive would be ridiculous. No tarantula would actively hunt an animal of our size. Once you open their enclosure and you appear to be a giant predator, they are immediately the defender of their domain even if they jumped out of the enclosure and bit you repeatedly. To even think that a tarantula would stalk a human being is preposterous.

At this point I find the discussion more of a literary pissing contest. End of story.

i agree 100% :worship: :worship: :clap: :clap: -- phil

 

[edesign]

Cool! What's my score Josh? What's my score??? C'mon, tell me!! *nag-nag* :}

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