Aggressive/Defensive terminology...food for thought

[Venom]

While it won't apply to every specimen within a species, we all know certain species are well-known for certain attitude levels.

Naturally. Any such description would have to be a generalization-- an indication of the usual temperament of the species, but by no means a guarantee that every individual of that species will conform to the "norm."

I'll start thinking about how to define each level of the scale. Do you think the difference between points on a 10-point scale would be too narrow to pin down? I'm wondering if 1 - 5 is better, so that we can generalize a bit and not get uber-niggly with defining defensive response levels.

 

[EricFavez]

Hadn't you walked by it wouldn't have done that. It wouldn't have tried to come out of the tank to bite you while you were far away. It sensed someone/something near/in range of it's territory and reacted upon that.

Ok thats like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound. How will you ever know if T is aggressive or defensive if you dont go near it. I think if your just walking and the thing goes bizerk and sinks its fangs through the critter keeper than that seems a lil aggressive to me. But it may be aggressive because it was DEFENDING??????? who knows.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Ok thats like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound. How will you ever know if T is aggressive or defensive if you dont go near it. I think if your just walking and the thing goes bizerk and sinks its fangs through the critter keeper than that seems a lil aggressive to me. But it may be aggressive because it was DEFENDING??????? who knows.

Read:

It wouldn't have tried to come out of the tank to bite you while you were far away.

That is the main point.

 

[EricFavez]

I think everyone knows that if you dont go anywhere near your T....than you are at no risk at all of being attacked. You cant stay far away forever you have to eventually go near it right?

 

[EricFavez]

if I never went near my H.Lividum.....than i would imagine it would be the perfect lil Tarantula.

 

[Lorgakor]

My opinion on this subject is "who cares?" I mean, when someone comes on here, newbie or not, and says, "My T is aggressive, it doesn't like to be touched" or blah blah whatever the story is, we all know what the person is saying. What difference does it make if they are not using the word that you think they should be using, you still know what they are trying to say. (I say you, but I don't mean anyone in particular)

You can try to come up with an alternative word that everyone can use (I've heard mention of people wanting to do this before), but it is unlikely that people will A.)remember to even use it and B.) care enough to use it.
It could be blabbitybloo and you'll still get someone coming on here saying "blah blah aggressive", and you know what? You will all still know what they mean.

I understand that some people don't want to see the word aggressive attached to their beloved pets, but really, it isn't going to hurt the hobby, a newbie isn't going to come on here and see the word aggressive, get scared and sell their spider. Aggressive/defensive and all the other ways you can say it, it still boils down to one thing. A spider being called any of those things should most likely be left alone.

 

[cheetah13mo]

But it is only unprovoked from your point of view. The tarantula may feel some need to be extra defensive of his/her home. If a huge animal, many times larger than myself was walking by my home, I might get a little scared too. The tarantulas behavior should only be judged by its standards, not ours. And it should be looked at objectively, without very fallible human emotion attached.

Why should it be judged by it's standards. Our perception of any situation is all we have to truely judge by. No matter how much we think we know about other animals bahavior that is governed by their feelings, our judgement of how they feel about any given situation is nothing but a guess. Based on that, we can hardly decide that our perception is inacurate based on a guess of an animals perception.

 

[Bothrops]

My opinion on this subject is "who cares?" I mean, when someone comes on here, newbie or not, and says, "My T is aggressive, it doesn't like to be touched" or blah blah whatever the story is, we all know what the person is saying. What difference does it make if they are not using the word that you think they should be using, you still know what they are trying to say. (I say you, but I don't mean anyone in particular)

You can try to come up with an alternative word that everyone can use (I've heard mention of people wanting to do this before), but it is unlikely that people will A.)remember to even use it and B.) care enough to use it.
It could be blabbitybloo and you'll still get someone coming on here saying "blah blah aggressive", and you know what? You will all still know what they mean.

I understand that some people don't want to see the word aggressive attached to their beloved pets, but really, it isn't going to hurt the hobby, a newbie isn't going to come on here and see the word aggressive, get scared and sell their spider. Aggressive/defensive and all the other ways you can say it, it still boils down to one thing. A spider being called any of those things should most likely be left alone.

I Agree 100%

 

[Cirith Ungol]

I think everyone knows that if you dont go anywhere near your T....than you are at no risk at all of being attacked. You cant stay far away forever you have to eventually go near it right?

Yes and possibly into or close to what it considers being it's territory.

 

[Venom]

My opinion on this subject is "who cares?" I mean, when someone comes on here, newbie or not, and says, "My T is aggressive, it doesn't like to be touched" or blah blah whatever the story is, we all know what the person is saying. What difference does it make if they are not using the word that you think they should be using, you still know what they are trying to say. (I say you, but I don't mean anyone in particular)

You can try to come up with an alternative word that everyone can use (I've heard mention of people wanting to do this before), but it is unlikely that people will A.)remember to even use it and B.) care enough to use it.
It could be blabbitybloo and you'll still get someone coming on here saying "blah blah aggressive", and you know what? You will all still know what they mean.

I understand that some people don't want to see the word aggressive attached to their beloved pets, but really, it isn't going to hurt the hobby, a newbie isn't going to come on here and see the word aggressive, get scared and sell their spider. Aggressive/defensive and all the other ways you can say it, it still boils down to one thing. A spider being called any of those things should most likely be left alone.

but really, it isn't going to hurt the hobby

Well...it might actually. Using inaccurate language leads to misperceptions, and the resulting faulty understanding can lead to unwarranted actions. There is a reason why journalists of the political left and right use different adjectives for the same event. Take the recent example of "escalation" versus "troop surge" for the Iraq war. Escalation sounds like something dangerous, something you want to avoid--so naturally the left-wing Anti-bush crowd use that term to turn opinion against this decision. The term "surge," however, has a more positive, constructive connotation, so the pro-Bush crowd use that term to improve support for the decision.

In the case of "aggressive" versus "defensive," "aggressive" sounds like something dangerous, something you should avoid, or push legislation against...see where I'm going? "Defensive" sounds reasonable- of course a species would defend itself, it has a right to after all! But "aggressive" sounds sinister, and could result in a faulty understanding of tarantulas as out to get people. There are enough anti-pet whackos out there, combined with enough mindless phobia of arachnids, to *potentially* result in legislation on our hobby if we present our pets as "aggressive," because in some dimwit congressman's mind, this may be synonymous with "dangerous."

Even in the case of a prospective hobbyist, the two terms do NOT present the same mental image of the species' behaviour. "Defensive" communicates that a spider will react to provocation, to a lesser or greater extent. "Aggressive" sends the message of a threat whether or not you provoke the animal. Beginning hobbyists, onlookers, and legal professionals should not perceive our animals as being inherently hostile or threatening to humans, but as a matter of simple responsibility: "don't pull the dog's tail, and it won't bite you," "don't stick your hand in fire, and you won't get burned" --in other words, the possibility of a bite is not sinister, and is totally in the keeper's control. The spider is not a menace, and bites occur almost solely from HUMAN ERROR. The words we use to describe our hobby WILL be picked up on by incoming hobbyists and those who observe / notice our hobby. The idiots out there are strong enough without our adding to their list of reasons to ban our hobby.

 

[edesign]

once again Venom, excellent explanation :clap:

as for it not hurting the hobby...look at pit bulls. They've been demonized by the media as an evil dog when in reality they can be raised to be nice dogs (just don't provoke it). There has been enough negative connotation associated with them that just saying the name of the breed puts people on edge.

People already fear spiders for no real good reason (save for the few toxic ones) and having people describing the creatures they keep as "aggressive" is definitely a negative connotation. People hear "aggressive" and they think that these spiders are going to go out of their way to attack them which is blatantly false. If people hear that they're "defensive" they think "Well, if I stay out of their way and don't mess with them I should be ok".

I could care less if "aggressive" was attached to my specimens (i don't really consider them pets per se) because I know that they're not...but people hearing about tarantulas who are not familiar with their behavior will tell their friends about how they visited this forum and these people kept talking about how aggressive their spiders were and so on.

We complain when exotic pets get banned for no good reason, we complain when we read news stories printing false information about inverts, yet some of us are ok with hobbyists themselves using the wrong terminology? C'mon...if ANYONE should be held to a higher standard it should be US, not THEM.

 

[edesign]

I think everyone knows that if you dont go anywhere near your T....than you are at no risk at all of being attacked. You cant stay far away forever you have to eventually go near it right?

correct...BUT, when you go near it for tank maintenance or rehousing you are invading it's territory. When/if it attacks it is doing so to DEFEND it's home, not to hunt you down for no reason other than to bite you.

I'll start thinking about how to define each level of the scale. Do you think the difference between points on a 10-point scale would be too narrow to pin down? I'm wondering if 1 - 5 is better, so that we can generalize a bit and not get uber-niggly with defining defensive response levels.

I think a 1-5 scale would be better for just that reason, unless after some trial and error it becomes apparent that 5 different levels isn't enough to fully seperate some species. I have a feeling that it will be though.

 

[phil jones]

what a lot of pompous twaddle i am keeping out of this one

 

[Hedorah99]

what a lot of pompous twaddle i am keeping out of this one

Christ man, why bother even posting that twaddle then? Keep your holier than thou attitude to yourself or, for the love of God, try writing a post without emoticons. Its like chastising a three year old.

 

[Scott C.]

Just came in to let you know that I am staying out of this one.

PS- Defensive is a better word. It better describes your t's.

 

[phil jones]

Christ man, why bother even posting that twaddle then? Keep your holier than thou attitude to yourself or, for the love of God, try writing a post without emoticons. Its like chastising a three year old.

i will post with or without emoticons SO DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO and as for three years olds it takes one to know one :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

 

[ShadowBlade]

I think if your just walking and the thing goes bizerk and sinks its fangs through the critter keeper than that seems a lil aggressive to me.

See, thats just it. you'd find it aggressive, not the T. The difference is that tarantulas don't see threats like you. You can take a spider, and say, "I'm gonna knock the crap out of you freak!" and it won't care, a human would see it as a threat.

T's must rely on senses it can percieve as a threat, be it knocking the tank around to open the lid, or walking past, you are a possible threat, and it may attempt to defend itself, (or frighten you with defensive posture).

Example-

Mad female Hysterocrates sp. because lid was opened for water filling, defending herself.
View attachment 60864

If this was an aggressive behaviour, this would hardly be possible, she'd be chewing on my hand.
View attachment 60867

We all know how mean Hap's are right?
Only when threatened-
View attachment 60868


Handling these kinds of spiders, while I'm not really recommending it, shows that they aren't acting out of aggression, otherwise, handling wouldn't be possible. They behave this way only when they perceive as being threatened.

-Sean

 

[Scott C.]

Bravo Sean..... Extra points for excellent usage of usually frowned upon handling pics....

No one should look at this as a question of wrong, or right. There is just a better word to describe t's, and the word is defensive.

 

[Hedorah99]

Yea, that was a great post. :worship: (Crap, I just chatised someone for using an emoticon, didn't I?)

 

[hcsk8ter]

I think it depends on who you ask. The retailer or consumer.

The retailer will tell you a certain T is aggressive to make it known that caution should be used with a certain species and to try and curtail lawsuits as well.

A consumer would call most T's defensive because any time you open a T's tank you are the aggressor and they are defensive. The degree to which certain T's are defensive is debatable but most would agree certain genus are more docile than others.