What do you think?

[Windchaser]

so infact Ian is looking on this with a open mind and by his own obsevations from many years and many spiders where others are taking what thay read or rather what thay dont read as fact so back to my first statment if we dont question things we would be living in fear of falling of the edge of the world

Brian

See my response above. Virtually all of the molts I have observed of my NW T's have occurred when they have NOT had a bald spot. I am simply taking what I have read. Others have said the same thing. This certainly calls into question the statement that bald spots are the result of molting.

 

[shogun804]

And most often they are but the hair becomes looser pre moult no doubt about that as a spider that will kick off a tiny wisp of setae with a short kick normally will in pre moult look like Santa being attacked with a set of electric clippers when it performs the same kick it's not hard to think they can be dislodged much easier by anything else the spider does at that time.

Conceived wisdom from books and even articles is not always so iv been told and read that avic's never use there legs to remove their urticating setae (as it does after all have to be pressed in) yet versi have been said to be seen kicking hair as a defence even in the wild (I can't quote who said that as it's not in print.. yet but who said it is VERY respected) and I myself have seen one of my A.purp females that would hair her tube web when near to moulting and laying sac's.

well im taking a neutral stance on this one im just saying what i have noticed since ive been keeping T's my knowledge is basic compared to a decent amount to people these boards...im not saying its not possible for them to lose hairs when they are in pre molt it would just be very very hard to observe even prove this theory...but i do agree that not everything that is written is true and is always up for a debate...and this is turning out to be a good one.

 

[FryLock]

well im taking a neutral stance on this one im just saying what i have noticed since ive been keeping T's my knowledge is basic compared to a decent amount to people these boards...im not saying its not possible for them to lose hairs when they are in pre molt it would just be very very hard to observe even prove this theory...but i do agree that not everything that is written is true and is always up for a debate...and this is turning out to be a good one.

That’s a far more honourable view then many take on many forums on a whole range of subjects, I have gotten involved in quite a few postings were iv not had all the facts and had to read and check but sometimes you have to stop and listen even if you don’t think what your being told is right and judge things for yourself, books are great but just because a book is big don’t mean it’s got all the answers (i.e. who peer reviews pet keeping books) old info and myths sometimes get recycled infinitely.

No offence to anyone just my 2p.

 

[MrsT]

My G. Rosea has never kicked hairs before, and has now lost hairs and turned dark, thus leaving a bald patch, that is all I meant, and was wondering if its a sign of molting, I myself think she is going to molt as she has started webbing which is something else she has never done while iv'e had her, all i can do now is wait....

 

[Windchaser]

My G. Rosea has never kicked hairs before, and has now lost hairs and turned dark, thus leaving a bald patch, that is all I meant, and was wondering if its a sign of molting, I myself think she is going to molt as she has started webbing which is something else she has never done while iv'e had her, all i can do now is wait....

Well, since she is getting dark, then I would agree that she is getting ready to molt.

As far as the bald spot goes, unless youare able to observe her 24/7, it is impossible to say whether or not she kicked the hairs off herself. As others have mentioned, she may have done this in preparation for the molt when creating her matt.

With respect to the rest of the debate, I personally don't think that a molt necessarily causes a bald spot. I do think it is possible the T will flick hair in preparation for its molt as a precaution. I also think it sounds reasonable that the hairs are looser closer to a molt. I just don't believe, and have not observed, a bald spot will always be present at the time of a molt.

 

[Crotalus]

The "Mat Hairing" is a hardwired thing no doubt about that an evolved behaviour but sometime it does not happen when the spiders not been under stress, so taking it as an hardwired behaviour I doubt they “just forgot” to do it sometimes, so it depends on stimulus bearing that in mind the fact that the urticating setae becomes looser pre moult does make sense as what use would a abdomen full of hair be if your more at risk of fatal damage, not only that it may become mechanical looser thought the process of the up coming moult.

I think that spider is more irratable in premolt, but I got spiders that behave just as calm or irratable in premolt or not. So your assumtion would be on a individual spider and not as general for all spiders. I dont think if it was a general behaviour the spider would "forget" to get rid off all hairs. Cant say I noticed any difference in "looseness" of urtic hairs in pre or postmolt either.

/Lelle

 

[Crotalus]

Also take in to account that the urticating setae is inbedded in the tarantulas skin wich meens that a part of the urticating setae is on the inside of the spider as the new skin forms under the spider that new skin pushes out on the old skin wich could infact push the urticating setae out although not of this is writen or proven it is also not proven that it does not happen
Brian

Acctually they are not enbedded, they are made from the same material as the rest of the exoskeleton, cuticle, and do not have hairsacks. They are projections of the exosceleton.
The new setae is not pushing any old up, they lay flat until the spider have molted and after dry up they become erect.

/Lelle

 

[Brian_J]

Well, since she is getting dark, then I would agree that she is getting ready to molt.

As far as the bald spot goes, unless youare able to observe her 24/7, it is impossible to say whether or not she kicked the hairs off herself. As others have mentioned, she may have done this in preparation for the molt when creating her matt.

With respect to the rest of the debate, I personally don't think that a molt necessarily causes a bald spot. I do think it is possible the T will flick hair in preparation for its molt as a precaution. I also think it sounds reasonable that the hairs are looser closer to a molt. I just don't believe, and have not observed, a bald spot will always be present at the time of a molt.

No one said that it happens every time a spider moults or with all spiders all that was said is simply balding may also be due to the satae being looser at pre moult stage there are many factors to take in to account wich is why this probably will never be proven or disproven

things to take in to account

Species
(all Species are diffrant)

How the spider lives
(if the spider lives in a borrow or a web it will always rub its abdoman againsed the sides of the borrow and the web thus removing any overly loose satae)

how active the spider is if the spider is inactive or active
(if something is still and you put somthing on top of it it will stay there if it them moved the object will fall off)

 

[Crotalus]

That’s a far more honourable view then many take on many forums on a whole range of subjects, I have gotten involved in quite a few postings were iv not had all the facts and had to read and check but sometimes you have to stop and listen even if you don’t think what your being told is right and judge things for yourself, books are great but just because a book is big don’t mean it’s got all the answers (i.e. who peer reviews pet keeping books) old info and myths sometimes get recycled infinitely.

No offence to anyone just my 2p.

I assume your bookshelf is empty then. What in this thread do you consider a "myth"?
I read your and others replys and they are based on theories, not on facts. So who is presenting myths then?

And no offence here, I just find your view on solid information, which can be found in lots of books, a bit strange.

/Lelle

 

[FryLock]

I assume your bookshelf is empty then. What in this thread do you consider a "myth"?
I read your and others replys and they are based on theories, not on facts. So who is presenting myths then?

And no offence here, I just find your view on solid information, which can be found in lots of books, a bit strange.

/Lelle

Ah but my views are observations only Lelle and presented as such, were any of the books quoted in this thread peer reviewed in anyway or at any time?, when trying to disprove an observation one has to have 100% proof to do so or it’s just someone else’s 2p which was my point :}.

 

[Crotalus]

Ah but my views are observations only Lelle and presented as such, were any of the books quoted in this thread peer reviewed in anyway or at any time?, when trying to disprove an observation one has to have 100% proof to do so or it’s just someone else’s 2p which was my point :}.

I understand that but if peer revied was done on this forum not much would stay online.. ;-)
Many things in science is theorys but so far none presented here have proved the info i believe in to be wrong. Observation of a few spiders cant be consider a proof or fact.

/Lelle

 

[FryLock]

I understand that but if peer revied was done on this forum not much would stay online.. ;-)

No augment there .

Many things in science is theorys but so far none presented here have proved the info i believe in to be wrong. Observation of a few spiders cant be consider a proof or fact.

/Lelle

No i agree i dont think ppl who say there spider that had not kicked hair off before a moult and went on to moult with it still there are liars in fact thats the normal in most cases (iv had T's 18 years to judge that) but it still makes sence that the hair would be easey to lose at that time even if the spider was attacked and did not have time to kick the hair off but again thats just based on things iv seen and not things iv took time to try and prove.

I only evolved myself in the thread as ppl were thinking what a person had said to be untrue, and which that person had also claimed to observe happing had no chance of being true because they had read to the contrary.

Despite the fact others had also observed things which backed up at least in part what they were saying, if a man is before the court being called a liar but you have information to the contrary it’s not nice to watch him go to the gallows so to speak, as far as pet keeping books go many out there on a range of subjects are carbon copies that follow a pattern of plagiarism the great Frank Riets (sp?) once said of monitors “the more you read the less you breed” im not saying all books are a load of tosh but there are enough of them that are to doubt many that say things are absolutes.

 

[Crotalus]

No i agree i dont think ppl who say there spider that had not kicked hair off before a moult and went on to moult with it still there are liars in fact thats the normal in most cases (iv had T's 18 years to judge that) but it still makes sence that the hair would be easey to lose at that time even if the spider was attacked and did not have time to kick the hair off but again thats just based on things iv seen and not things iv took time to try and prove.

I only evolved myself in the thread as ppl were thinking what a person had said to be untrue, and which that person had also claimed to observe happing had no chance of being true because they had read to the contrary.

Despite the fact others had also observed things which backed up at least in part what they were saying, if a man is before the court being called a liar but you have information to the contrary it’s not nice to watch him go to the gallows so to speak, as far as pet keeping books go many out there on a range of subjects are carbon copies that follow a pattern of plagiarism the great Frank Riets (sp?) once said of monitors “the more you read the less you breed” im not saying all books are a load of tosh but there are enough of them that are to doubt many that say things are absolutes.

Im not calling you or anyone a lier, just to make that clear.
I just dont see a logic for a spider to kick off all hairs just because a upcoming molt. But I do see logic in if the spider do kick alot of hairs in premolt if it get more irraitable. But that dont make the next assumption true - that this is some kind of behavoiur because its molting. See what i mean?
What makes you think the setae is more loose during this period? I can see why, if its burrowed and gets a bit torned up. Again, that dont make the assumption true that the setae is infact more loose in premolt. They are projections of exoskeleton - nothing more or less.
Offcourse more people then you might have observed this, but that dont make it more correct.
However, if im wrong I be glad to be corrected.

BTW, Baxter "Keeping and breeding tarantulas" are still a favorite. Old names but still valuable info.
But your right, there are bad books - but that doesnt mean they all are bad.

/Lelle

 

[becca81]

I think looking at a microscoping image of a urticating hair can answer this. It's VERY easy to see from a hair under the microscope that it is meant to aggravate a predator.

 

[MrsT]

Shes Molting yippeeee!!!!

Well after all this debating, I get up this morning and my G. Rosea is on her back, its started, I have watched her for the past couple of days, and she webbed up a few things, I have now been waiting and watching patiently since getting up this morning, she must of started early on, i'm just worried now after reading about so many bad molts on here.

 

[Apocalypstick]

My G. Rosea has never kicked hairs before, and has now lost hairs and turned dark, thus leaving a bald patch, that is all I meant, and was wondering if its a sign of molting, I myself think she is going to molt as she has started webbing which is something else she has never done while iv'e had her, all i can do now is wait....

MrsT.... I'm new around here so my opinion probably won't mean much

BUT, my T is getting ready to molt. Her small bald spot from kicking hairs has not increased in size. Also, I can see the discoloration of her premolt in the skin UNDER areas still covered with setae and these areas are also very slightly lumpy when I examine her with a magnifying glass. She is quite irritable during premolt and could easily be aggitated enough to kick more hairs before the impending molt. Who really knows ???? It would seem too, that the seperation of the old skin very close to molting could cause loss of the hairs on the soon to be shed skin <---common sense.

By the way, you guys post some beautiful pics!

 

[NightCrawler27]

this has been a nice long debate..ive been fllowing it and before i decided to post on this one ..i decieded to educate myself more on this ..and after reading books from one of the worlds foremost herpetological experts jon coote and books from jerry g. walls who have dedicated their lives to herpetological studies all of their books have stated ..quote..the bald patch on the abdomen indicates a molt comming soon ...there for im goin to have to argue this on Brachymad's behalf...but they do not just fall out they are pushed out due to a fluid that starts to build up in between the new and old layer of the exo..when the entire body has built up enough fluids it then molts that is the period from pre-molt to molt so yes urticating hairs are pushed out if they are not already been kicked at another predetor .and is the ost common to deterine an upcomming molt..its in the books and there has been lifetimes of studies that have been done on this issue..so regardless of any post that are made after this ..who are you goin to trust ..(and i say this with no disrespect to any keeper or anyone on this board ).....expert herpetologists or hobbists....there is a fine line between the two..1 does it for a living and has spent and dedicated their life to the studies ..the other loves the species but has other life issues at hand...thx for everyones time

 

[Windchaser]

this has been a nice long debate..ive been fllowing it and before i decided to post on this one ..i decieded to educate myself more on this ..and after reading books from one of the worlds foremost herpetological experts jon coote and books from jerry g. walls who have dedicated their lives to herpetological studies all of their books have stated ..quote..the bald patch on the abdomen indicates a molt comming soon ...there for im goin to have to argue this on Brachymad's behalf...but they do not just fall out they are pushed out due to a fluid that starts to build up in between the new and old layer of the exo..when the entire body has built up enough fluids it then molts that is the period from pre-molt to molt so yes urticating hairs are pushed out if they are not already been kicked at another predetor .and is the ost common to deterine an upcomming molt..its in the books and there has been lifetimes of studies that have been done on this issue..so regardless of any post that are made after this ..who are you goin to trust ..(and i say this with no disrespect to any keeper or anyone on this board ).....expert herpetologists or hobbists....there is a fine line between the two..1 does it for a living and has spent and dedicated their life to the studies ..the other loves the species but has other life issues at hand...thx for everyones time

Do these sources address the issue of molts occurring when no bald spots are present? As stated earlier, the majority of molts I have observed have all occurred with no bald spot present. Granted, I am only a hobbiest with four years experience, but these are still valid observations. The explanation you gave certainly sounds reasonable and plausible, I am just wondering how they account for molts without blad spots present.

 

[Sheri]

this has been a nice long debate..ive been fllowing it and before i decided to post on this one ..i decieded to educate myself more on this ..and after reading books from one of the worlds foremost herpetological experts jon coote and books from jerry g. walls who have dedicated their lives to herpetological studies all of their books have stated ..quote..the bald patch on the abdomen indicates a molt comming soon ...there for im goin to have to argue this on Brachymad's behalf...but they do not just fall out they are pushed out due to a fluid that starts to build up in between the new and old layer of the exo..when the entire body has built up enough fluids it then molts that is the period from pre-molt to molt so yes urticating hairs are pushed out if they are not already been kicked at another predetor .and is the ost common to deterine an upcomming molt..its in the books and there has been lifetimes of studies that have been done on this issue..so regardless of any post that are made after this ..who are you goin to trust ..(and i say this with no disrespect to any keeper or anyone on this board ).....expert herpetologists or hobbists....there is a fine line between the two..1 does it for a living and has spent and dedicated their life to the studies ..the other loves the species but has other life issues at hand...thx for everyones time

And when are these studies dated?

 

[nowhereman]

this has been a nice long debate..ive been fllowing it and before i decided to post on this one ..i decieded to educate myself more on this ..and after reading books from one of the worlds foremost herpetological experts jon coote and books from jerry g. walls who have dedicated their lives to herpetological studies all of their books have stated ..quote..the bald patch on the abdomen indicates a molt comming soon ...there for im goin to have to argue this on Brachymad's behalf...but they do not just fall out they are pushed out due to a fluid that starts to build up in between the new and old layer of the exo..when the entire body has built up enough fluids it then molts that is the period from pre-molt to molt so yes urticating hairs are pushed out if they are not already been kicked at another predetor .and is the ost common to deterine an upcomming molt..its in the books and there has been lifetimes of studies that have been done on this issue..so regardless of any post that are made after this ..who are you goin to trust ..(and i say this with no disrespect to any keeper or anyone on this board ).....expert herpetologists or hobbists....there is a fine line between the two..1 does it for a living and has spent and dedicated their life to the studies ..the other loves the species but has other life issues at hand...thx for everyones time

Well put NightCrawler27. I've been waiting to see when this point would be made. "they do not just fall out they are pushed out due to a fluid that starts to build up in between the new and old layer of the exo"
I don't need your sources, I've done my own study. It just makes good ole common sense.
Think about it folks...... :clap: