Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

[pocock1899]

Just an FYI, before everyone gets all melancholy, P. regalis and tigrinawesseli are not included in this listing. Nor are they included in the proposed listing of Indian tarantulas.

So, if you've had your heart set on acquiring a Pokie, breeding it, and then selling the offspring across state lines, ...then there is still hope. It's very unlikely that either will be added at this late date in the process. P. regalis is safe because it really isn't threatened or endangered in the wild, and tigrinawesseli because it wasn't included in the Petition for Listing that was submitted by Wild Earth Guardians, back on 10/29/2010.

BTW, that's how long this thing has been coming. Nine years.

 

[Venom1080]

Just an FYI, before everyone gets all melancholy, P. regalis and tigrinawesseli are not included in this listing. Nor are they included in the proposed listing of Indian tarantulas.

So, if you've had your heart set on acquiring a Pokie, breeding it, and then selling the offspring across state lines, ...then there is still hope. It's very unlikely that either will be added at this late date in the process. P. regalis is safe because it really isn't threatened or endangered in the wild, and tigrinawesseli because it wasn't included in the Petition for Listing that was submitted by Wild Earth Guardians, back on 10/29/2010.

BTW, that's how long this thing has been coming. Nine years.

Is there anything hobbyists can do now?

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

After reading the publication in full, the breeding, possession, and interstate transport is allowed for these species as long as there is no commercial activity. Meaning, captive breeding in the USA is still allowed, one just can't sell the offspring. So lets see how many keepers and breeders put their money where their mouth is and keep these Poecilotheria species alive in captivity by giving away the produced offspring. Granted, that maybe difficult knowing that it would still be illegal to import fresh breeding stock from Europe, but lets see what the tarantula keeping community does within the limitations.

Go read the publication in full to verify this. Don't take my word for it.

 

[Venom1080]

After reading the publication in full, the breeding, possession, and interstate transport is allowed for these species as long as there is no commercial activity. Meaning, captive breeding in the USA is still allowed, one just can't sell the offspring. So lets see how many keepers and breeders put their money where their mouth is and keep these Poecilotheria species alive in captivity by giving away the produced offspring. Granted, that maybe difficult knowing that it would still be illegal to import fresh breeding stock from Europe, but lets see what the tarantula keeping community does within the limitations.

Go read the publication in full to verify this. Don't take my word for it.

I've read most of it. Where does it say that?

 

[SonsofArachne]

Meanwhile in the real world;
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180726085918.htm
Time is running out in the tropics: Researchers warn of global biodiversity collapse

I'll say it again - captive breeding for commercial purposes may be the only hope these animals have.

 

[lostbrane]

Where does it say that?

@Venom1080 Page 18, response to comment 11.

 

[Venom1080]

@Venom1080 Page 18, response to comment 11.

Thank you. I'll post it here if anyone else is interested.

 

[CyclingSam]

Well, the FWS gives their contact info on the first page of the publication. I say we breed these five species heavily, create detailed documentation of the breeding and SPAM the heck out of them with our well put together breeding reports and fabulous success. I'm being serious. I know Don Morgan is dying to read all our reports.

Here it is so you don't have the pull the publication:
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Don Morgan, Chief, Branch of Delisting and Foreign Species, Ecological Services, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, MS: ES, 5275 Leesburg Pike, Falls Church, VA 22041–3803; telephone, 703–358–2171. Persons who use a telecommunications device for the deaf (TDD) may call the Federal Relay Service at 800–877–8339.

 

[SonsofArachne]

So my earlier post might not have completely off -
"I wonder if it's legal to give them away. And if you just happen to have a Gofundme page for donations...."

I mean as long as you didn't ask for money directly for spiders, instead asked for money to help with "overhead" (and don't tell me to go try it - I'm not a breeder)

 

[Greasylake]

Nor are they included in the proposed listing of Indian tarantulas.

Do you have a list of the proposed Indian species as well?

 

[cold blood]

lets see what the tarantula keeping community does within the limitations

I think our freebie species just improved a whole lot in the future!

 

[lostbrane]

WildEarth Guardians listed P. formosa, P. hanumavilasumica (although this one inhabits both India and Sri Lanka if I recall correctly), P. metallica, P. miranda, P. rufilata, and P. striata as the Indian species proposed to be put under the ESA.

 

[volcanopele]

I think our freebie species just improved a whole lot in the future!

I actually have a question about that. I presumed that one way to get around this would be that these species would be given as freebies but I worry that “not transported in the course of a commercial activity” would preclude that...

That being said, today I picked up an emergency ornata and vittata...

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

I think our freebie species just improved a whole lot in the future!

I actually have a question about that. I presumed that one way to get around this would be that these species would be given as freebies but I worry that “not transported in the course of a commercial activity” would preclude that...

These are good points in what the Fish and Wildlife Service considers commercial activity. Is paying for shipping only while sending the spider(s) at no cost be considered commercial activity? The only way I would see it as being completely safe is if someone sends them completely free without expecting any kind of financial reimbursement of any kind. Like in the case of breeding loans.

I have a gut feeling that the generally accepted terms of breeding loans we use in the hobby is what the statement made in the publication that says "it is not our intention to cause difficulties for breeders of these species..." is referring to. I send you my male to breed with your female and you send me some of the offspring along with the male back. Each party pays for shipping to one another.

So I say again, there are ways to keep Sri Lankan Poecilotheria species going in the USA after the end of August so lets see how many people put their money where their mouth is. If they quickly die out in captivity, then we know no one really cared that much. But if people are as dedicated to "the cause" as they seem, I wonder how long it will be until the gene pool gets so diluted from inbreeding we won't be able to recognize each species.

 

[SonsofArachne]

I wonder if non breeding trades would be allowed? say you had a pokie I wanted and I had some other T you wanted could we just swap them?

I will say USFW is being disingenuous when they say aren't looking cause difficulties for breeders. Not being able to sell your slings after all the time, effort, and money you put into breeding them is certainly the definition of "causing difficulties"

 

[JeremyRay75]

The way I understood it they can be sold but only in the same state. So I could buy them from a local breeder like at a show or something?

 

[SonsofArachne]

These are good points in what the Fish and Wildlife Service considers commercial activity. Is paying for shipping only while sending the spider(s) at no cost be considered commercial activity? The only way I would see it as being completely safe is if someone sends them completely free without expecting any kind of financial reimbursement of any kind. Like in the case of breeding loans.

I have a gut feeling that the generally accepted terms of breeding loans we use in the hobby is what the statement made in the publication that says "it is not our intention to cause difficulties for breeders of these species..." is referring to. I send you my male to breed with your female and you send me some of the offspring along with the male back. Each party pays for shipping to one another.

So I say again, there are ways to keep Sri Lankan Poecilotheria species going in the USA after the end of August so lets see how many people put their money where their mouth is. If they quickly die out in captivity, then we know no one really cared that much. But if people are as dedicated to "the cause" as they seem, I wonder how long it will be until the gene pool gets so diluted from inbreeding we won't be able to recognize each species.

This is interesting. But after you do the 50/50 split what are you going to do, give them all away? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, believe me I don't mean to be, but it seems like your only 2 options would be giving them away or eventually have a warehouse full of pokies. I just don't see a lot the commercial breeders wanting to do this.

 

[MetalMan2004]

It seems the options are sell them in-state, give them away out-of-state or keep them.

I really wonder if trades are allowed. The missing link here that would answer a lot of these questions is a fully described definition of “commercial activity.”

You mean this stickied thread from 2014?

Thats the one. I took another look at it and the latest actual information on it was from two years ago daying the legislation is dead... once again, I guess I should have tried to keep up with it myself instead of relying on someone else to pass the news along.

And then there are the people like me who don't have enough experience for pokies otherwise I'd buy some before then

If I understand this correctly you can sell them within a state though. But does every state have breeders of all those species?

I really want to know what the logic behind this was. Do they want to kill them off?

The hobby here in Texas seems quite small, especially compared to other states. I have a feeling most of them will dissapear rather quickly from Texas.

I’d love to do some panic buying but my wallet just can’t take it right now. That being said, if any Texas folks want to send me one to hold for them if they feel they are still working on their experience level I’d be happy to gift it back to you when yoh are ready. That sounds a bit ludacris but I’m not really sure how else I can help.

 

[Greasylake]

The hobby here in Texas seems quite small

I only know of one dedicated breeder and they're located in Austin, other than that there's a handful of knowledgeable keepers sprinkled around. If you go to expos a decent amount of people go to the invert tables, talking to a few of them quite a number are pretty experienced, they just aren't all on the boards.

 

[Olan]

California might have enough keepers and breeders to keep a california specific market, to keep them going. If that is the case, then people who really want the species can take a road trip to California, buy a few spiders, which become their personal spiders. Then they can carry them back across state lines. Once males mature, they can be shipped back to CA free of charge for breeding purposes.
Or fly to CA, purchase spiders, desecration them back home, then fly home