Your taxonomical woes?

[JadeWilliamson]

Last time I visited Repticon, I was talking to one of the vendors about his breeding methods and such. I mentioned that I've bred both Avicularia avicularia and Avicularia metallica and the topic came to how he has interbred those species to get fertile offspring and based on this and his experience he became much more skeptical about Theraphosa stirmi and Theraphosa blondi being different species. If they were interbred would they have fertile offspring?

Here's a bit of science to consider (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
Dogs used to be Canis familiaris and gray wolves were Canis lupus. However, since those "two species" could interbreed and have fertile offspring, and those offspring could have babies whose pups could have litters, etc., they were revised. Now man's best friend is Canis lupus familiaris but wolves haven't changed.

I'm interested in hearing from people about multiple spp. they think should be put under one name or any thoughts related.

 

[xhexdx]

I'm not entirely sure I understand your question.

Two separate species who can breed together produce hybrids, not a new species.

Whether the hybrids can themselves reproduce or not makes no difference in their labeling. Whether or not two separate species can interbreed also makes no difference to their labeling (unless they are from two different genera - in which case there would be a lot of time spent considering reclassifying one or both species in question.)

That's about all I've got right now.

 

[Poec54]

Domestic dogs came from wolves, and have been deliberately bred over thousands of years to bring out a multitude of traits. At what point did they cross the line and become a 'new' species? Or are they really more like cultivars of plants, that are crossed back and forth to bring out different traits buried in their DNA? Whatever the case, domestic dogs are unique in the animal world, they have the most genetic variation. Domestic cats are basically scaled-down lions; a dachshund is not a scaled-down wolf.

Tarantula taxonomy is still in it's infancy, lots yet to be worked out. Many species have been described based on characteristics of questionable taxonomic value, and revisons almost always result in species being merged. DNA analysis will play a key part in this. Avicularia is a complete mess. It's that thought there may be at least half a dozen 'species' that may be regional forms of Avic avic (braunshauseni, geroldi, leporina, metallica, nigrotaeniata, plantaris, velutina, etc.). For now, we're guessing, and the prudent advice is to keep them separate in captive breeding .

With Aphonoplema, many of the existing species will be merged, and some new ones added. Just because most of them 'look alike' to the average (uninformed) person, doesn't mean they're the same species. There are a number of physical differences that separate T blondi and T stirmi; the fact that they're both big and brown doesn't mean they're the same species. Stirmi has a rounder and higher carapace, larger chelicerae, thicker femurs, and slings have pink tarsi on legs 1 and 2 (on blondi they're brown on all legs - juvenile characteristics often reveal different lineages; all flowering plants are classified by whether they have 1 or 2 seedling leaves when they germinate). The vast majority of tarantula owners/collectors/breeders have NO IDEA as to what constitutes a distinct species of tarantula; they go by adult colors and markings, which are not taxonomic characters.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

...they go by adult colors and markings, which are not taxonomic characters.

Unless one is referring to the genus Poecilotheria.

 

[Poec54]

Unless one is referring to the genus Poecilotheria.

The colors and banding are shortcuts for laymen to differentiate the Poec species, but taxonomists use physical features. This is how they can identify the various color phases that many Poecs species have, and place them in the right species. For hobbyists, colors and markings are much easier then looking at, and comparing, various features under a microscope, especially with a live animal.

 

[Bugmom]

Domestic cats are basically scaled-down lions; a dachshund is not a scaled-down wolf.

Don't tell that to my dachshund. He's pretty sure he's the apex predator around here

Seriously though, breeding two avic species makes a hybrid, not a new species.

Look up the paper by Chris Hamilton on Aphonopelma hentzi range, which discusses how hentzi became 7 species with different DNA. It's a bunch of scientific jargon, but it'll put this into perspective.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

 

[JadeWilliamson]

I appreciate the perspectives. I admit that I have a very elementary knowledge of taxonomy and biology in general. I came into this prepared to be told that I was misinformed.
I wish I knew more about this stuff! I intend to one day, but currently I'm trying to be a full-time touring musician when I'm not doing tarantula stuff.

Thanks to the Floridians for clearing this up with objective information, and Bugmom I will attempt to find that paper if I get free time to do so.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

The colors and banding are shortcuts for laymen to differentiate the Poec species, but taxonomists use physical features. This is how they can identify the various color phases that many Poecs species have, and place them in the right species. For hobbyists, colors and markings are much easier then looking at, and comparing, various features under a microscope, especially with a live animal.

We might have a misunderstanding here. Ventral leg banding has been used as a character to define the different species of Poecilotheria. Have you read the description papers? Whether we agree that markings should be used as species defining character isn't my point, just that it is used for one taxa of tarantula spider and not just a means for the lay person to identify a species.

 

[Poec54]

We might have a misunderstanding here. Ventral leg banding has been used as a character to define the different species of Poecilotheria. Have you read the description papers? Whether we agree that markings should be used as species defining character isn't my point, just that it is used for one taxa of tarantula spider and not just a means for the lay person to identify a species.

Poecilotheria ventral leg bands are convenient tools for laymen to differentiate the species, not how taxonomists define them. They're looking at things like spermathecae, male bulbs, chelicerae teeth, etc.; things we can't readily see on live animals. We amateurs tell most, if not all, of our spiders apart by colors and markings, but those don't hold up in alcohol.