Worried about the future of my hobby

[psychofox]

It's funny how different people can think

I for one am happy that things like driver's licenses and gun ownership is regulated. We Norwegians have more guns per citizen than you have in the US, but gun ownership is restricted. Only hunters (with a passed hunting test) and members of shooting clubs are allowed to own weapons. As a hunter myself, I am happy that not any idiot can go buy a gun. And Norway does not have gun related murders anywhere near the rates the US has, so the gun regulations apparently have at least some effect Of course such murder rates may be a cultural thing, but I don't see how that goes in the favour of the US either.

I think that the "American freedom" that Nomad advocates, certainly has a lot of positive points. However, to avoid permits just because not everyone will be following them is a strange way of thinking. Why even have laws at all, people steal, rob and kill each other all the time anyway...

 

[Nomadinexile]

You are entitled to your opinion of course...You can mock me and Europe all you want.....My name is not Michael, btw and do us Europeans a favor, stay in the States

LOL, you aren't getting offended are you? Actually Michiel, I love Europeans, and Europe. I disagree with a lot of your laws, but that applies to America too. But really, I'm just teasing you, so calm down!

It's funny how different people can think

I for one am happy that things like driver's licenses and gun ownership is regulated. We Norwegians have more guns per citizen than you have in the US, but gun ownership is restricted. Only hunters (with a passed hunting test) and members of shooting clubs are allowed to own weapons. As a hunter myself, I am happy that not any idiot can go buy a gun. And Norway does not have gun related murders anywhere near the rates the US has, so the gun regulations apparently have at least some effect Of course such murder rates may be a cultural thing, but I don't see how that goes in the favour of the US either.

I think that the "American freedom" that Nomad advocates, certainly has a lot of positive points. However, to avoid permits just because not everyone will be following them is a strange way of thinking. Why even have laws at all, people steal, rob and kill each other all the time anyway...

I find it hard to believe you have more guns per person, but maybe you are right. I think murder rates are much more cultural than gun ownership. Because in the U.S. the states with the most guns generally have the lowest murder/crime rates. When I'm in Texas, I feel safer than anywhere else in the U.S., and almost everyone there has multiple firearms. My apartment building with 12 units had multiple automatic rifles in multiple apartments. I was safe as could be there. What kind of idiot would try to break into a house that is better armed than many soldiers? :?

As far as people not following the laws, that was more of a side point. My main point is that permits don't make anything safer, particularly when their is no education/test/checking of cages...etc. That's how they do it here. You just have to pay for all your permits. That's it. Just money. So it would be just a tax on owning scorpions. How would that make anything safer? Maybe you will do it differently there. And I don't think I have the right to interfere with your choices as a nation, but I would fight tooth and nail against it here.

But people not following an unjust law should be taken into account. You may not know a lot about it, but I'm sure you've heard of Alchohol prohibition in the U.S. early in the 20th century. It was an utter failure. All it did was provide profits to gangsters, cause tons of death over turf fights, and cause people to disrespect laws, which flows into other laws eventually. Oh, and people started putting bad chemicals into booze because they could make better profit. That stupid law put this nation back decades. Now scorpion ownership is not as common as boozers, but on a smaller scale it is no different. If a law is not respected or followed by the people it is meant to serve, should it be a law?

Everyone in America is a criminal whether they know it or not, we've all been criminalized by stupid laws. And now many people don't respect even the good laws, because we are all already criminals in the eyes of the law, so they think who cares?

 

[Gsc]

Also, in Texas, you can have any gun you want. Automatic machine guns, silencers, hand grenades.....

I'm a Texan (and ex Marine Corp) and I gotta say... HAND GRENADES are not legal for civilian ownership in any state...we CAN own military SMOKE grenades BUT you can do that in almost ANY state.

I also own a CLASS II supressor (silencer). It is a $200 Tax Stamp, some paperwork & a 4-6 month wait. Same for Class III (full auto ) weapons--- BUT again in almost any state (I see you're from california though- y'all can't own jack) you can own these....

Texas is changing- I used to own a serval (mid sized african cat) but no longer. There are a TON of local ordances popping up.

I keep and breed a ton of snakes- I have to buy a special permit for venomous & large constrictors. If I breed native species, it's another permit. Road-Cruising (hunting for reptiles- usually at night- on the oradways is ILLEGAL in Texas now).

Not complaining- compared to other staes we have it REALLY GOOD...Just seems like our rights are being taken away yearly-- to the orig thread starter, I know- y'all have it REAL bad in the EU... Texas is great....

 

[catfishrod69]

yeah that really sucks...that horse i ran over a few years back was potentially dangerous too, but my car won, and i see that people still have horses....akward

 

[Michiel]

I wish I could have a .50 caliber sniper rifle to shoot those people who collect door to door for 3rd world countries Or shoot at certain people (not Dutch natives) who *uck up our country....

 

[psychofox]

From all the laws and regulations Nomad and Gsc mentions for US citizens, I think you don't quite know what you're talking about when you sum it up with "but at least we have it better than the Europeans"

There naturally are laws and regulations in Norway that many people disagree with, it's illegal to own reptiles for instance (although that may change soon). But when I hear that it's illegal to road cruise in Texas, now THAT seems much more severe than any laws we have. You talk about personal freedom, how can you claim that you live in a free country when you live under such regulations? Maybe I misunderstood, but here in Norway, I can walk and drive anywhere I want, at any time of day or night, without doing anything illegal.

And I remember Nomad mentioning in a thread about one of his trips (great reads by the way) that you will get shot in Texas if you walk on anyone's property. I understood that this meant not just close to any homes, but also out in the wilderness? Here in Norway me and my dog can walk ANYWHERE we want without doing anything illegal. As long as we are polite and are considerate, we will not meet any hostility at all, neither from landowners or the law.

You can have all the guns you want, and make all kinds of excuses for why it's necessary and why it's your right to own them, but don't claim that you have it better than us Europeans, because I really don't think you do

 

[Michiel]

From all the laws and regulations Nomad and Gsc mentions for US citizens, I think you don't quite know what you're talking about when you sum it up with "but at least we have it better than the Europeans"

There naturally are laws and regulations in Norway that many people disagree with, it's illegal to own reptiles for instance (although that may change soon). But when I hear that it's illegal to road cruise in Texas, now THAT seems much more severe than any laws we have. You talk about personal freedom, how can you claim that you live in a free country when you live under such regulations? Maybe I misunderstood, but here in Norway, I can walk and drive anywhere I want, at any time of day or night, without doing anything illegal.

And I remember Nomad mentioning in a thread about one of his trips (great reads by the way) that you will get shot in Texas if you walk on anyone's property. I understood that this meant not just close to any homes, but also out in the wilderness? Here in Norway me and my dog can walk ANYWHERE we want without doing anything illegal. As long as we are polite and are considerate, we will not meet any hostility at all, neither from landowners or the law.

You can have all the guns you want, and make all kinds of excuses for why it's necessary and why it's your right to own them, but don't claim that you have it better than us Europeans, because I really don't think you do

The country of credit, policeman of the world, bringer of democracy and such.....Last great thing the US did is plunging half of the world in a financial crisis, so let them mock us europeans if their ego grows by doing so....
I think we are just pulling eachothers legs now
Back on topic....

 

[TomM]

I think people should have permits and should be able to prove to have extensive knowledge of the animals they keep. Before people get permits, they should do oral or theoretical exams.

I think I'd have to say that I definitely agree with this statement. With the simplicity of ordering exotic animals online, there should be some way to make sure they are going to a home that can properly take care of them and know what to do should any problems arrive. With the exams, it would at least be a way to prove that a person knows what they are getting into and how keep what ever it is they are getting in good physical and mental health. Just by having these exams might deter potentially ingnorant people from impulse buying or buying something they cannot care for properly.

 

[Travis K]

When people hear the word "pet", I think most think on a lower level without really thinking about it that you must at least be able to "pet" the animal. We don't really have a word for animals we only observe in something like a terrarium, we need to make up a word for it, I think people would get it then.

It is a scientific collection, or better yet for all the majority of the ignorant, simply a "collection". Especially if you don't anthropomorphize it!

 

[TomM]

It is a scientific collection, or better yet for all the majority of the ignorant, simply a "collection". Especially if you don't anthropomorphize it!

Hahaha, that's exactly what I have: a "scientific collection".

 

[Nomadinexile]

From all the laws and regulations Nomad and Gsc mentions for US citizens, I think you don't quite know what you're talking about when you sum it up with "but at least we have it better than the Europeans"

...........

You can have all the guns you want, and make all kinds of excuses for why it's necessary and why it's your right to own them, but don't claim that you have it better than us Europeans, because I really don't think you do

You bring up some good points! I still think we have it better than you for animal keeping though. Yes, anywhere you are someone elses property in Texas, you can be shot in the back of the head, by the neighbor even! (See recent court case by googling)

By the way, when he is talking about road cruising, that means cruising around looking for animals to take. You just can't take them from the side of the road because it creates a hazard for drivers. People see a snake they want, and they slam on their brakes, pull over hastily and poorly, then run into the middle of the road on a sharp curve. That is dangerous. But you can drive anywhere until your heart is content! You just can pull off on the side to grab animals!

Norway is such a small population country, that I understand you can walk in other peoples yards. You probably either know them or are related to them anyway! Not here. We have a strong belief in private property here. If its yours it yours, so you decide who comes or not. I see both sides. But I would rather be able to say no if I want. Plus, in Texas, they worry about people stealing their cows, which happens more than you would think, especially considering the gun laws!

I think in some areas (like keeping animals), we have better laws. (obviously there are different laws accross the EU, so maybe some places are better than others). In other ways, I know you have it better than us. Your prison systems are much smaller and more humane. Your governments protect you from dangerous or not well understood foods and chemicals like GMO's and Fluorides. You have better public transport, nicer police, yada yada. I know. I love Europe. I have told Michiel that many times as well. I just hate dumb laws, especially when you look at the big picture and see many worse problems than a handful of enthusiastic scorpion keepers. But we still have better animal laws! No reptiles? You should tell your government to lay off the Amanita muscaria!

The country of credit, policeman of the world, bringer of democracy and such.....Last great thing the US did is plunging half of the world in a financial crisis, so let them mock us europeans if their ego grows by doing so....
I think we are just pulling eachothers legs now
Back on topic....

I am the first to critisize my government Michiel, surely you have seen some of my rants in here. I am surprised my brains haven't blown straight out my ears they make me so mad sometimes. Our country is a mess right now especially. We WERE once pretty awesome though. That is the greatness I refer to, not our present pathetic state. I would take some of the good laws of Europe, you have many, and I love Europeans too. You are more educated and cultured on average compared to Americans. I take company of Europeans whenever possible here. But that doesn't mean you don't have stupid laws too. And your scorpion permit system is included in that! But otherwise, you are fine with me.

 

[John Bokma]

You know better than that John, being a former Dutch citizen. Dog owners only have to pay taxes in the Netherlands. Dogs are nice and cuddly I get your point.

;-)

This is an important factor in the discussion. Dogs ARE far more dangerous, simply because there are more of them and they thus cause more accidents. This exotic animals thingee is already under the attention of the government here, since in 2004-2005, some smart ass accidentally let escape a A.australis mother with more than 30 young.

How long would that survive outdoors? (assuming the summer) And what's the likelihood that anyone gets stung by it? (Not arguing, just curious of your opinion on the actual danger here).

The headlines where of course like: Dangerous Sahara scorpions loose in the streets, panic in Zeeland.

Heh, I recall that many years ago a "bird spider" escaped from a zoo and a local called that she had seen it flying (!) in her garden....

A lot of people have no idea of the actual dangers of animals (I raise you a shark) and the media is indeed not helping at all (to put it mildly). Personally I think that permits don't make people keep scorpions in safer ways and it will draw people into the hobby just because it's illegal to keep certain species (and hence more cool). It's not like most people have to have a scorpion (like a car) so I don't see much of a point in permits.

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------

Norway is such a small population country, that I understand you can walk in other peoples yards.

It's a bit more complicated than that (allemannsrett), see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Norway

(been to Sweden on vacation and I always do some research before visiting a new country )

 

[Michiel]

Hi John,

Yes the "A.australis break" out was in summer. The adult and half the young where caught. The newspapers sought advice from a venomous snake expert (Walter Getreuer from Serpo)...The actual risk, well in summer with an adult A.australis I see risks, but the young would be eaten by all kinds of predators (cats, rats, birds etc) and would also not survive the winter (constant freezing temps, lack of food)unless they would get into houses.

Hi Nomad,

Yes, I have seen some of your rants, lol There are stupid laws everywhere and not many citizens in the world are happy with their government. The scorpion permit system is of course a brilliant idea , but I accept that you think the opposite. It would be a boring world if everyone thought the same...

Regards, Michiel