Worried about the future of my hobby

[BelfastScorpion]

Hi Everyone,

Every so often articles like this appear:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/lincolnshire/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9391000/9391589.stm

When I read these things I get very concerned incase our scorpion keeping days are numbered.

Scorpions are my number 1 hobby and they are my favourite animal. If they were banned from being kept in captivity I would be so gutted.

I live in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom and every now and then articles like the above crop up.

Extremely worried!

 

[Nomadinexile]

That's lame. I have a lot more to say, but I think I'm going to the Audobon Insectarium today, so I don't want to blow a fuse just yet.

The only other thing I have to say, is this: I know it's your home, but you may want to consider emigrating to a non-nanny state. Everything is over regulated over there.

You could move to Texas. Then you could have all the insects you want. You could also keep exotic big game, tigers, anacondas, whatever; Texas doesn't care as long as you don't bother anyone else. Also, in Texas, you can have any gun you want. Automatic machine guns, silencers, hand grenades..... It's all legal with simple, easy to get permits. Heck, in Texas, even convicted felons can keep one gun in the house!

Otherwise, you just have to fight the regulations. Go to the press if you are legal. Go to your legislator. Organize a petition. Educate the public. etc.

Good luck Belfast!

P.S. Is it easy for you to get shipments from the rest of the EU? Or is it highly dangerous, expensive, etc.?

 

[scorpionmom]

Yes, I would really agree with Nomadinexile. Reading the article, I thought that the author did not have a clue about scorpions (or maybe it was just my opinion). We know we should be careful and that several species are potentially dangerous, but a lot of us are careful. Those who are incapable of keeping scorpions should gain knowledge about them, not ruin it for everyone else, to name only one thing brought up in the article. I would be wary, but not too worried.

Personally, however, I think it is insane to keep an animal such as a meerkat, a monkey, etc. as was mentioned in the article. I feel that taking a larger, more demanding creature whose daily life depends on others of the same kind in a social invironment with complex day to day activities is unfair; not right...but that is just my opinion.

ANYWAY, we support you. I wouldn't worry too much. Good luck!

 

[ornamentalist]

lots of people buying scorpions and meerkats. I think a scorp causes a little less damage to your furniture than a meerkat. They are actually pretty aggressive creatures and would perforate your hand if you tried to pet it. I dont only disagree with keeping them as pets, but also cant see why anyone would want one. Scorps are awesome and i have an emperor 'grumpy claws' as long as they dont get critically endangered there wil be no probs. They breed easily and theres no shortage of them. Its the fact that people can buy dogs and then beat and abuse them that needs to be re-assessed in my opinion.

 

[Galapoheros]

The article sounds like some kind of propaganda to me. Lol: "We've got four scorpions that people bought as pets and couldn't cope with. They were little when they got them and they grow to about three inches long and they've got quite a good sting on them then. They don't make good pets." I agree with scorpionmom, it doesn't sound like they understood keeping scorpions or inverts in general. When people ask me if I have any pets I say, "no". Then they find out I have some scorpions and some other inverts, they say, "I thought you didn't have any pets." I tell them that they aren't pets. I think we limit thought to language, or that language limits our thinking sometimes. When people hear the word "pet", I think most think on a lower level without really thinking about it that you must at least be able to "pet" the animal. We don't really have a word for animals we only observe in something like a terrarium, we need to make up a word for it, I think people would get it then. So in this sense of course, scorpions don't make good pets, but make nice terrarium animals to observe out of curiosity, cheap entertainment. As far as the meerkats go, I saw a show of a couple in Africa that had pet meerkats, they did great with them. They just let them roam like cats, I suppose since they are native there . It looked like they were good pets but I didn't see enough to know that, there were just a few short clips of them playing with the animals, not a whole lot to go by. But from that, I suspect they might be lying in the article to deter some other problems, maybe a moral motive in their mind also about keeping animals. I would be for having people qualify and getting a permit to keep meerkats, maybe having a safe place outdoors for them.

 

[BelfastScorpion]

Thanks everyone for reassuring me. It really is such a stupid article. These people really don't have a clue about scorpions. Let's hope that nobody in a higher authority takes their word for it and includes all scorpions on the DWA list. At the moment it is only buthid scorps on the list.

---------- Post added at 09:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 AM ----------

P.S. Is it easy for you to get shipments from the rest of the EU? Or is it highly dangerous, expensive, etc.?

Thanks for your reply Nomadinexile. I have only ever got shipments from mainland Britain. These arrive with no problems. However I have heard of people recieving scorps from mainland Europe with no issues. There is a great German site that can ship them. I have never ordered from them before though.

 

[Michiel]

I think banning it is not the solution, because many people (us!) are being robbed them from their hobbies. However, I can understand the concern of governments, especially when it is about venomous animals. Same thing in the Netherlands. Depending on local legislation, almost every moron can keep a spitting cobra or highly venomous scorpion now. Only some places have local law prohibiting that. I am negociating with the dutch ministry of agriculture and etc etc to make such a permitsystem. There are a lot of incompetent people that keep these animals. They prove a risk to other citizens. There is also the aspect of animal wellbeing.


I think people should have permits and should be able to prove to have extensive knowledge of the animals they keep. Before people get permits, they should do oral or theoretical exams.

 

[Nomadinexile]

I think people should have permits and should be able to prove to have extensive knowledge of the animals they keep. Before people get permits, they should do oral or theoretical exams.

I think it depends on the animal personally Michiel, and even then permits sound fishy to me. I haven't been to the EU in 23 years, so I don't know what it's like there, but here it doesn't make sense to me. Why?

Well, you don't need a permit for a dog for one. When I ride my bike around rural us areas, I get chased down roads for miles at a time. You can see little kids walking around here with dogs that can (and look like they'd like to) eat other little kids. That doesn't need a permit, or knowledge exam either.

Then, to go back to the guns, you don't have to do anything but fill out a form and send it in with money. You can get a federal automatic weapons permit without knowing the first thing about a gun, let alone how to use it safely.

A lot of U.S. states now do not require kids to take a driving test for their driving license. There are millions of Americans in Los Angeles alone that shouldn't qualify for a bumper car license. Yet, they are driving down the street 60mph in an 10,000 lb steel vehicle while they send text messages, put on make up, and shove fash food down their gullets. But I need to pay and show I know how to handle a scorpion? phfff

How about a profiency exam for bankers? We still have people in the Federal Reserve and the current White House, that are at least partly responsible for crashing the world economy. Can anyone imagine the suffering that was caused by fraudulent and inept banking? Make them get permits first. I know of more than one person eating dog food because of their greed. You wouldn't even need a permit system, you know they are all inept!

I get the desire for safety of your community and applaud the ideal Michiel, but the world I live in, the last thing that should be on anyones list is making fees and permits for people keeping scorpions.

At least in the U.S., there are a lot better places to put that energy and cost into. Many of our schools are nothing short of tragic. 1/5th of American children are on food stamps right now. And in some school districts, large numbers of students are homeless. You think they have a college fund?

At least here in the states, we have bigger fish to fry, embarrassingly.

While I am trying not to act like I know what's best for the EU countries, If I've read your news sources correctly, you all have bigger fish to fry too.

Sorry, but I couldn't help replying to this. I'm leaving again this morning though, so I won't be able to respond to replys.

Edit to add: just a couple of weeks ago I stopped by a womans house with a ride while hitch hiking. She had 3 adult female tigers that I got to pet, get kissed on by, and that I went nose to nose with two of them. And that was after handling a big dead smelly goat. She's had them for decades. They have a pretty nice house and love her to death. (no pun intended) Of all the problems and danger I see traveling around, exotic animal keepers are not one of them. I know, it happens. But they happen on our roads everyday too. Life and death is a normal part of the human existance. It can't be regulated out it!

 

[elle101]

As far as the meerkats go, I saw a show of a couple in Africa that had pet meerkats, they did great with them. They just let them roam like cats, I suppose since they are native there . It looked like they were good pets but I didn't see enough to know that, there were just a few short clips of them playing with the animals, not a whole lot to go by. But from that, I suspect they might be lying in the article to deter some other problems, maybe a moral motive in their mind also about keeping animals. I would be for having people qualify and getting a permit to keep meerkats, maybe having a safe place outdoors for them.

I live in South Africa, and know of a few people who keep meerkats as pets. They do make great pets but they need a lot of attention. It would be cruel to keep one in isolation. Most of these pet meerkats bond with the dogs and even sleep with them. They have lots of energy and have similar characteristics as jack russels. I am quite sure you need a permit to own one though.

 

[scorpionmom]

Thanks everyone for reassuring me. It really is such a stupid article. These people really don't have a clue about scorpions. Let's hope that nobody in a higher authority takes their word for it and includes all scorpions on the DWA list. At the moment it is only buthid scorps on the list.

I know this might be a dumb question but:

When you hear about this DWA list, and that all buthids are on it, does that mean that keeping buthids is illegal? Just want to make sure I am not doing something I shouldn't.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Thanks everyone for reassuring me. It really is such a stupid article. These people really don't have a clue about scorpions. Let's hope that nobody in a higher authority takes their word for it and includes all scorpions on the DWA list. At the moment it is only buthid scorps on the list.

I know this might be a dumb question but:

When you hear about this DWA list, and that all buthids are on it, does that mean that keeping buthids is illegal? Just want to make sure I am not doing something I shouldn't.

Unless KY has been annexed by the United Kingdom, I think you are safe.

 

[BelfastScorpion]

Thanks everyone for reassuring me. It really is such a stupid article. These people really don't have a clue about scorpions. Let's hope that nobody in a higher authority takes their word for it and includes all scorpions on the DWA list. At the moment it is only buthid scorps on the list.

I know this might be a dumb question but:

When you hear about this DWA list, and that all buthids are on it, does that mean that keeping buthids is illegal? Just want to make sure I am not doing something I shouldn't.

Hi scorpionmom. Keeping buthid's is illegal in the UK. You require a liscence for them. All other scorpions are perefectly legal. This will not affect you however as it is UK.

 

[scorpionmom]

Hi scorpionmom. Keeping buthid's is illegal in the UK. You require a liscence for them. All other scorpions are perefectly legal. This will not affect you however as it is UK.

Unless KY has been annexed by the United Kingdom, I think you are safe.

Thanks, I was really starting to worry.

I had had that question for a while, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Michiel]

I think it depends on the animal personally Michiel, and even then permits sound fishy to me. I haven't been to the EU in 23 years, so I don't know what it's like there, but here it doesn't make sense to me. Why?

Isn't that a bit obvious? Because myself and other citizens do not want to live next door to some incompetent person keeping very dangerous "pets" like venomous snakes.....Key thing is that some people have these animals, why they shouldn't, because they pose a risk for other people....

Can you support why permits are 'fishy to you', because I don't see a problem there. You need a license to drive a car, a permit to own a gun,what's wrong with a permit to keep highly venomous animals? The rest of the world is not the US, where everyone seems to be able to get a gun after a two week waiting period, like you correctly say, but comparing these animals to guns is not very logic imo.

Of course, even with persons with such a permit, escapes (i.e.) could happen theoretically, but one can expect from such a person that the risk is far more less, because only competent persons get these permits. Just as you can expect someone to be able to drive a car when he or her got a license.

Safety or the feeling of safety is always relative! But that does not mean that we should not make an effort to exclude high risks. Most people that keep these pets, like most scorpionkeepers, know what they are doing and they will not have a problem obtaining a permit. It is a method, maybe not foolproof, to weed out the thrillseekers and psycho's, also because permits cost money.

 

[John Bokma]

Nomad does have a point though that dog owners should require a license. More so. Check the number of dog attacks in the Netherlands and compare them to the number of people attacked by an escaped snake or scorpion...

Lobbying for a permit system might give a lot of dumb people the idea that such animals shouldn't be kept at all... They read scorpion and then remember all those dumb Hollywood movies in which Emperor scorpions fly through the deserts of the USA and attack in packs in broad daylight...

 

[BelfastScorpion]

In Northern Ireland a licence is required for owning a dog. I'm not sure if that's the case in the rest of the UK, but in Northern Ireland we have dog licences.

I hope I never have to get one for scorpions though!

 

[ZephAmp]

"I've known it where a scorpion has been purchased and it's actually extremely dangerous."

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

 

[Michiel]

Nomad does have a point though that dog owners should require a license. More so. Check the number of dog attacks in the Netherlands and compare them to the number of people attacked by an escaped snake or scorpion...

Lobbying for a permit system might give a lot of dumb people the idea that such animals shouldn't be kept at all... They read scorpion and then remember all those dumb Hollywood movies in which Emperor scorpions fly through the deserts of the USA and attack in packs in broad daylight...

You know better than that John, being a former Dutch citizen. Dog owners only have to pay taxes in the Netherlands. Dogs are nice and cuddly I get your point. This is an important factor in the discussion. Dogs ARE far more dangerous, simply because there are more of them and they thus cause more accidents. This exotic animals thingee is already under the attention of the government here, since in 2004-2005, some smart ass accidentally let escape a A.australis mother with more than 30 young.
The headlines where of course like: Dangerous Sahara scorpions loose in the streets, panic in Zeeland.
The "Raad voor de dieren" formulated an advice in 2005, which I happen to have in .pdf I can e-mail it to you if you want. It is of course in Dutch.

I am not worried about the invert hobby in the Netherlands...By the way, it is 2011 now and there is still no permit system.
The Netherlands are very good in tolerating something for a long time, untill something happens, and then they take a grotesk measure like banning the keeping of all exotics, or something like this. They excell at that

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

"I've known it where a scorpion has been purchased and it's actually extremely dangerous."

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

I have read this a couple of times and I still have no clue what you are talking about LOL (I am a stupid foreigner of course, bare with me)...

 

[Nomadinexile]

Isn't that a bit obvious? Because myself and other citizens do not want to live next door to some incompetent person keeping very dangerous "pets" like venomous snakes.....Key thing is that some people have these animals, why they shouldn't, because they pose a risk for other people....

Can you support why permits are 'fishy to you', because I don't see a problem there. You need a license to drive a car, a permit to own a gun,what's wrong with a permit to keep highly venomous animals? The rest of the world is not the US, where everyone seems to be able to get a gun after a two week waiting period, like you correctly say, but comparing these animals to guns is not very logic imo.

Of course, even with persons with such a permit, escapes (i.e.) could happen theoretically, but one can expect from such a person that the risk is far more less, because only competent persons get these permits. Just as you can expect someone to be able to drive a car when he or her got a license.

Safety or the feeling of safety is always relative! But that does not mean that we should not make an effort to exclude high risks. Most people that keep these pets, like most scorpionkeepers, know what they are doing and they will not have a problem obtaining a permit. It is a method, maybe not foolproof, to weed out the thrillseekers and psycho's, also because permits cost money.

You'll never be able to live away from stupid people with dangerous things. You could spend 100 lifetimes, and unless you are a hermit eating caught fish in the wilderness, you can never escape stupid dangerous people. And fyi, permits are not used by all, even when available. I know people in the UK right now without them. And they have tons of buthids and venomous snakes. And no, you do not need a permit to purchase a gun, not in texas anyway. You just have to be 18 and have money. The only thing you need a permit for there is fully automatic rifles and .50 caliber machine guns, stuff like that. Otherwise, you just go to gun show or answer ad in paper, and pay for it. The waiting period is only in sporting stores, and it's a background check, not a permit. And again, there is much more danger than scorpion keepers. Even for you in pleasant NeverNeverland!

You don't see a problem with permits because you live in Nanny State EU. ;P
Here in the states, we want to be treated like adults. Freedom from bad laws and unreasonable taxation is what we are. That is what makes america great. I don't think we should even have drivers licenses here. Most of the people who get them can't drive anyway. Right now I can't get mine because of beaurocracy. (I know spellings off, it's hard to sleep on the bus, I'm loopy) I should not be prevented from getting around, and having a job, because of that. (PS, public transport is a joke in most of US)

I think the only things there should be permits for are dangerous industry. Oil drilling, mining, chemicals, etc. Otherwise, Off OUR BACKS.

The problem, when you really get down to it for me, is the poor pay way too much in taxes, permits, fees, ect, ect. But the rich get to do anything. These permits are just a scam for more money. Do you really think anything will be safer? No, you just have the dummies not getting permits, and now you have more criminals. I'm against all permits except what I mention above. Not for guns, driving, building a shed. Nothing. OFF OUR BACKS!

I like you micheal, but i disagree very much with you on this. I don't have time or brainpower right now for a complete discussion, but hopefully we can do that over a dinner someday. :}

Permits don't do anything but take money from the poor to feed the war machines and subsidize international corporations destroying the planet. End Permits Now!

 

[Michiel]

You'll never be able to live away from stupid people with dangerous things. You could spend 100 lifetimes, and unless you are a hermit eating caught fish in the wilderness, you can never escape stupid dangerous people. And fyi, permits are not used by all, even when available. I know people in the UK right now without them. And they have tons of buthids and venomous snakes. And no, you do not need a permit to purchase a gun, not in texas anyway. You just have to be 18 and have money. The only thing you need a permit for there is fully automatic rifles and .50 caliber machine guns, stuff like that. Otherwise, you just go to gun show or answer ad in paper, and pay for it. The waiting period is only in sporting stores, and it's a background check, not a permit. And again, there is much more danger than scorpion keepers. Even for you in pleasant NeverNeverland!

You don't see a problem with permits because you live in Nanny State EU. ;P
Here in the states, we want to be treated like adults. Freedom from bad laws and unreasonable taxation is what we are. That is what makes america great. I don't think we should even have drivers licenses here. Most of the people who get them can't drive anyway. Right now I can't get mine because of beaurocracy. (I know spellings off, it's hard to sleep on the bus, I'm loopy) I should not be prevented from getting around, and having a job, because of that. (PS, public transport is a joke in most of US)

I think the only things there should be permits for are dangerous industry. Oil drilling, mining, chemicals, etc. Otherwise, Off OUR BACKS.

The problem, when you really get down to it for me, is the poor pay way too much in taxes, permits, fees, ect, ect. But the rich get to do anything. These permits are just a scam for more money. Do you really think anything will be safer? No, you just have the dummies not getting permits, and now you have more criminals. I'm against all permits except what I mention above. Not for guns, driving, building a shed. Nothing. OFF OUR BACKS!

I like you micheal, but i disagree very much with you on this. I don't have time or brainpower right now for a complete discussion, but hopefully we can do that over a dinner someday. :}

Permits don't do anything but take money from the poor to feed the war machines and subsidize international corporations destroying the planet. End Permits Now!

You are entitled to your opinion of course...You can mock me and Europe all you want.....My name is not Michael, btw and do us Europeans a favor, stay in the States