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Wild Caught Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,052
If you breed WC strictly with WC you're just doing what has already been done in the past all over again. It would make more sense to add genetic diversity to the CB specimens. Traits get homogenized due to CB nature - but inputting WC genetics would make them again more diverse and add more WC dominant alleles that "CB/WC spiderlings" would display.
Do you even know how many wild caught specimens where imported in the US only? Before I purchased my very first wild caught female one importer had over 400 of them in stock. Than I found out from another importer that had over 300 of them as well. It makes me wonder when this wild caught specimens were first imported on how many total were brought in.
Just me alone have 20 females in different sizes. And purchasing more of them.

How many females were/are available to purchase and different bloodlines? How many mature/immature males as well? I wonder just in the US on how many different bloodlines there is. How many gravid females dropped a sac and had succesful offsprings in captivity? How many more import is there going to be?

Than what about the Germans and Canadian importing this species in large numbers as well.

So my point is this species came in large quantities compare to back in the 80's 90's or what ever decade is that they where imported.

I have no control what gets imported that's why we have rules, regulations and government to control those issues. I can't sit here and assume/worry that this species where imported legally or illegally. Our government is far more stricter than other countries and that's there job to pursue any wrong doing.

Mating/breeding wild caught to wild caught I'm definetly 100 percent not against it. The captive born specimens to me I'll let other people go nuts over them. Not interested in them specially what hobbiest has done to them through the years of hybreeding them. I'll keep my specimens as long as I can for my own enjoyment as well as any offsprings I produce that I wish to keep.
 
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gottarantulas

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
226
I think there is some merit to both sides of the equation but, my leanings definitely veer towards like sentiments of Iska and Crone.I remember once seeing a photo of WC Rose Hairs packaged by the hundreds being loaded onto a plane bound for the U.S. To know that days prior, the thousand plus Rose Hairs were roaming a given plain in Chile, only to be coaxed out of their burrows and within days, end up in a whole new hemisphere and continent for the pet trade, was a little put offish when I read the accompanying caption. This is the reason why CITES exist...to ensure the preservation and environment of a given animal species threatened because of mass consumption and demand by the pet trade. On the issue of bloodlines, I call myself improving and providing for genetic variation by importing tarantula species from Europe.
 

pocock1899

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
84
I'm curious how the OP knows they are WC. I actually work in this field (international wildlife trade) for a living, and I'm a little skeptical that your spiders are WC. I think that you may have been mislead by whoever you bought them from, or they were mislead by whoever they acquired them from.

The reason I ask, is that I've seen quite a few shipments of B. ablopilosum come in to the US from Nicaragua. It's not even uncommon. All a shipment needs is a CITES permit from Nicaragua, and they aren't really that hard to acquire.

However, I also know that there are only a couple of large vendors down there, and that all of their export spiders are CB. One of the main reasons is that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get a CITES certificate for WC animals in Nicaragua.

Additionally, WC spiders would actually be MORE expensive to obtain than CB. They seem to be having great success at breeding down there, so why would they want to go to the extra expense, trouble and risk to illegally catch and ship WC? Especially when there is no financial incentive to do so on this end? It's not like WC B. albopilosum are selling for P. metallica prices. It just makes no sense to me.

If you want a new bloodline, you're getting one, as these are probably not related to the European bloodlines that dominate the US hobby. I have a darker suspicion that if it makes you more likely to buy (if you think that it's a WC), then that may be why you're being told that. I've seen a similar scenario before, several times actually.

However, I would think that if you go to one of the three or four companies that are actually doing the importation, I'll bet that you find your spiders are CB.

Admittedly, there is also the possibility that they are smuggled spiders. But smuggling in a large shipment of adult , CITES listed spiders....? I don't think that's as easy as it sounds. I know a couple of people on these boards that can attest to what happens if you get caught by USFWS. They can tell you, with those numbers you'd be deep in to "Felony" territory.

You'd think that there'd need to be some kind of incentive to run that big a risk, and B. albopilosum just don't command that kind of price.

Lastly, I've seen shipments of WC spiders. Your spiders are much prettier. WC's often come in looking rough, occasionally missing legs, with scars and sometimes even parasites. Usually there are cosmetic differences for a couple of molts. Yours looked nice, healthy and well treated. That's a credit to you and whoever you obtained them from.

Sorry to contradict you, but your story just doesn't seem to match the facts of the Trade, as I have seen it.

Regards.
 
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Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,052
I'm curious how the OP knows they are WC. I actually work in this field (international wildlife trade) for a living, and I'm a little skeptical that your spiders are WC. I think that you may have been mislead by whoever you bought them from, or they were mislead by whoever they acquired them from.

The reason I ask, is that I've seen quite a few shipments of B. ablopilosum come in to the US from Nicaragua. It's not even uncommon. All a shipment needs is a CITES permit from Nicaragua, and they aren't really that hard to acquire.

However, I also know that there are only a couple of large vendors down there, and that all of their export spiders are CB. One of the main reasons is that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get a CITES certificate for WC animals in Nicaragua.

Additionally, WC spiders would actually be MORE expensive to obtain than CB. They seem to be having great success at breeding down there, so why would they want to go to the extra expense, trouble and risk to illegally catch and ship WC? Especially when there is no financial incentive to do so on this end? It's not like WC B. albopilosum are selling for P. metallica prices. It just makes no sense to me.

If you want a new bloodline, you're getting one, as these are probably not related to the European bloodlines that dominate the US hobby. I have a darker suspicion that if it makes you more likely to buy (if you think that it's a WC), then that may be why you're being told that. I've seen a similar scenario before, several times actually.

However, I would think that if you go to one of the three or four companies that are actually doing the importation, I'll bet that you find your spiders are CB.

Admittedly, there is also the possibility that they are smuggled spiders. But smuggling in a large shipment of adult , CITES listed spiders....? I don't think that's as easy as it sounds. I know a couple of people on these boards that can attest to what happens if you get caught by USFWS. They can tell you, with those numbers you'd be deep in to "Felony" territory.

You'd think that there'd need to be some kind of incentive to run that big a risk, and B. albopilosum just don't command that kind of price.

Lastly, I've seen shipments of WC spiders. Your spiders are much prettier. WC's often come in looking rough, occasionally missing legs, with scars and sometimes even parasites. Usually there are cosmetic differences for a couple of molts. Yours looked nice, healthy and well treated. That's a credit to you and whoever you obtained them from.

Sorry to contradict you, but your story just doesn't seem to match the facts of the Trade, as I have seen it.

Regards.
Several importer vendors from Florida verified these are WC specimens not captive born as well as a vendor from California.
I went straight to the source and I asked. Actually I didn't really need to ask I was offered these specimens last year from the two vendors in Florida. The vendor from California I asked.
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,052
Pocock1899, why would someone raise over 900 spiderlings of this species than selling them at the size ranging 4" inches up to 6" inches from Nicaragua as captive born? This large quantaties of spiders sub adult to adults are always as I have seen wild caught specimens. I can't see a hobbyist from my beloved country raising over 900 of this species. My country is poor as hell.

The price of P. metallica has dropped dramatically. Why my opinion is people's choice on how much they want to sell their tarantulas.
 
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pocock1899

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
84
Pocock1899, why would someone raise over 900 spiderlings of this species than selling them at the size ranging 4" inches up to 6" inches from Nicaragua as captive born? This large quantaties of spiders sub adult to adults are always as I have seen wild caught specimens. I can't see a hobbyist from my beloved country raising over 900 of this species. My country is poor as hell.

The price of P. metallica has dropped dramatically. Why my opinion is people's choice on how much they want to sell their tarantulas.
I agree that there are different economic realities in Nicaragua. However, because of the low wages and the unique environment, I'm sure you'd agree, it makes much more economical sense to grow spiders in captivity there (where you can do it outdoors, year round), than it is to do it here. There are some huge spider ranching operations in in South America. They're able to produce very large numbers of decent sized spiders for the worldwide pet trade.

I did a cursory search into some of the databases that I have access to, and found no evidence of WC Brachypelmas (of any species) coming out of Nicaragua. All I found are captive raised Brachypelmas. Even if you don't work in the import/export trades, you can double check the information I have, as almost all of the same information is available through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

I don't know the specific importers you spoke with, and I don't need to know. But, if you were to do a public records search, through the FOIA, of declared imports from Nicaragua for the past 5 years, my guess is you'd find that what you are being told, is not necessarily what is being documented on the official paperwork. It certainly appears that someone is being mislead, either you or the USFWS. If you have such a good relationship with the importer, and are confident that they are selling you WC spiders, then I would, personally, question the legality of the shipments. On way or the other, ...the spiders can't be CB on the paperwork, then become WC in your hands.

As one of their buyers/vendors yourself, you probably don't have to do a FOIA, you could simply ask for them to show you the USFWS Declaration Form 3-177. Every legal import has one, and it clearly states the Origin (NI for Nicaragua), the Source (C-animals bred in captivity, W-specimens taken from the wild, R-specimens originating from a ranching operation), the numbers, and the date and location of import. Each 3-177 should also have the unique number from the CITES certificate that was issued by the exporting country. If they don't want to show it to you the whole form, if you can just get the Confirmation Number from the declaration, I can look it up, and tell you what's on it.

Maybe I tend to have a suspicious nature, ...but I am pretty confident, they will have a reason NOT to show it to you.
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,052
Like I said the Brachypelma albopilosum were offered to me to purchase out of Florida as wild caught specimens last year. I purchased some that came from a California importer that sold them as wild caught specimens.

You mentioned that all wild caught will come with missing legs, rough looking etc. what I've encounter on most occasions with wild caught specimens is that most of them are skinny. That's how my 20+ Brachypelma albopilosum specimens came in. As well as my 48 wild caught Grammostola sp. "Concepcion". No missing legs with the exception of one that has a missing spinneret.

Not one of this spiders with both species came in rough looking. The Grammostola sp. "Northern Type" those one I've seen rough looking.

Brachypelma albopilosum captive born out of Nicaragua? Nah! I don't believe that for a minute why change the label? It wouldn't make sense what's so ever. Never seen importers purchasing captive born species in large volume and replacing the title to wild caught. That's Crazy!
 
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pocock1899

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
84
Brachypelma albopilosum captive born out of Nicaragua? Nah! I don't believe that for a minute why change the label? It wouldn't make sense what's so ever. Never seen importers purchasing captive born species in large volume and replacing the title to wild caught. That's Crazy!.
Actually you've pretty much explained why, in your original posts. You can sell them as Wild Caught, and as new bloodlines (with extra curly hair!).
It's interesting, now you seem quite confidant of what and how the spiders are being raised, or collected in Nicaragua, whereas earlier, you seemed to not know much about international shipping, CITES or even how they were collected.

I've seen no proof that any importers were involved in calling them WC, except your word on it. I've looked into the records (which you, or anyone, could do as well) and they are all declared as captive bred upon import. So, there are only a limited number of scenarios here. Somewhere between the import, and the first post in this thread, the importer, the vendor, or you changed them from CB to WC. Why? I have no idea, except possibly to market them as a "new" bloodline.
The other possibility is that they are what you say they are, and that you are dealing in spiders that are illegally imported, ...or not wild caught, ...or not from Nicaragua.

I've offered to help verify the origin of the spiders. You don't seem interested, which I can only interpret as not caring whether you're selling legal or smuggled animals.

I'm not the one who is concern about the legality of how this species was imported.
That speaks volumes to me about your ethics as a vendor. On that note, there's really nothing left to discuss. You're happy with your suppliers and the spiders, so good luck with them. I won't continue to annoy you with facts.
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,052
Actually you've pretty much explained why, in your original posts. You can sell them as Wild Caught, and as new bloodlines (with extra curly hair!).
It's interesting, now you seem quite confidant of what and how the spiders are being raised, or collected in Nicaragua, whereas earlier, you seemed to not know much about international shipping, CITES or even how they were collected.

I've seen no proof that any importers were involved in calling them WC, except your word on it. I've looked into the records (which you, or anyone, could do as well) and they are all declared as captive bred upon import. So, there are only a limited number of scenarios here. Somewhere between the import, and the first post in this thread, the importer, the vendor, or you changed them from CB to WC. Why? I have no idea, except possibly to market them as a "new" bloodline.
The other possibility is that they are what you say they are, and that you are dealing in spiders that are illegally imported, ...or not wild caught, ...or not from Nicaragua.

I've offered to help verify the origin of the spiders. You don't seem interested, which I can only interpret as not caring whether you're selling legal or smuggled animals.



That speaks volumes to me about your ethics as a vendor. On that note, there's really nothing left to discuss. You're happy with your suppliers and the spiders, so good luck with them. I won't continue to annoy you with facts.
Just to let you know before this thread I posted on AB there were other people on Facebook groups that has also declared that this are wild caught. And still to this day people on Facebook are still continuing of calling them wild caught, why is that?

Philth a well known member on AB that has been on AB for a long time has also commented on this thread. He also states that this are wild caught specimens. This species "new bloodline" as you call it has been in the hobby since late last year so they have been around way before I started this thread January 26, 2016. Appearantly I was the first one to post a thread on AB about this species from Nicaragua. Also I purchased some of these "Nicaraguan" specimens a couple of days earlier before this thread was started.

My Acanthoscurria sp. "Para Mongo Zebra" in the last three years or so I have purchased them as wild caught specimens. This species comes in on an import from Guyana. And as usual this species is sold as wild caught. I don't ask the importer where and how exactly this species gets imported from. Just like any other species for example Euthlus pulcherrimaklaasi, Theraphosa stirmi, Ephebopus murinus, Grammostola sp. "Concepcion", Avicularia avicularia etc.

If you're so sure that this albopilosum are CB than just simply post proof that they are. Otherwise is my word, his word, your word and others word against one another.

I have nothing to gain by making up story on AB.

Who says I'm annoyed?
 
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Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,052
Received 18 new stock of wild caught B. albopilosum "Nicaragua from my importer today that brings a total of 39 of the Nicaraguan albo. One came in nice and fat the other somewhat with good abdomen size. I also got one really skinny albo.



 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,052
These photo is one of my wild caught B. albopilosum making her egg sac. She is one of my first ones I acquired months ago I mated several females with a male wild caught B. albopilosum but I never kept track which one I mated I figured I wouldn't matter since I only have one specimen that molted under my care. The rest if they are gravid most of them is because from a natural mating in the wild.
Also I previously posted photos of my new stock of albopilosum. I posted a photo of one specimen that I received that is fatty. She is also making her sac as well.
Time will tell if the sac will be nice and healthy.

 

grimmjowls

Arachnoknight
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
205
The only problem with promoting WC specimens with this idea of a new bloodline is the extravagant increases in imports that could occur. There are numerous species of animals in the pet trade that have become endangered due to the same process.

Regardless, it's very interesting to see the WC specimen vs the hobby form. This thread is definitely interesting and I'll be following it for sure.

Good luck with your egg sacs, @Exoskeleton Invertebrates!

Edit: for a pesky typo
 
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