Why so scared of old worlds?

[Kibosh]

As the title states why are so many keepers on here scared to keep old world tarantulas? I get the venom is worse than new world tarantulas and all. My point is most of us drive cars and a crap ton of people die in car crashes every day and some also get seriously injured and have to be amputated. Never heard of anyone dying or getting amputated from a bite of an old world tarantula. Some of you smoke cigarettes as well, lying in a hospital bed hooked to a breathing machine with lungs black as night sounds worse than any old world bite as well.

Dogs kill and hurt a fair amount of people each year and almost everyone I know keeps a dog as a pet.
Point I am trying to make is there is a crap ton of things out there that kill people everyday or send to the hospital for surgery that we use or do everyday, old world tarantulas are not part of this so why so scared of them?

I read a post the other day someone has been keeping for over 13 years and and has no interest in keeping old worlds, to each his or her own but I find this to be odd and see this type of attitude on the boards daily yet most of you drive cars every day and other drivers are as predictable as any tarantula.

Also hear that it's a cool factor for some to keep old worlds, well let me say that zero and I mean a big fat fricken ZERO people in my family or friends even like my tarantulas old or new. You guys are the only ones I talk to about tarantulas, I have never even had a conversation outside of this forum where I use scientific names to anybody when talking about tarantulas.

I started this hobby in 2007 with an old world tarantula and 90+% of collection is old world and i haven't had any issues at all and never even have come close to being bitten, they ALL disappear to burrows when disturbed.

So let's hear it why so scared of old worlds????
There is nothing to be ashamed of for not keeping old worlds and I am not trying to be rude or think less of you for not keeping one to each his or her own just curious as to why most on here don't keep or want one in there collection. Thanks for your replies in advance.

Also Semper Fi devil. I did 5 years in the Corps.

You threw out a lot of apples to oranges logical fallacies here as others have already pointed out lol.

Also makes me sad to think you don't have any face to face T buddies. I found one simply by inquiring on these forums. It was very fun and useful. Trading T's, sharing advice, babysitting T's, working on breeding projects, she was a bedrock for me first getting started and her collection was about twice the size of mine. Everyone should have a T buddy. Haha Can also just start offering to buy people lunch and drinks at conventions works for me lol

 

[Emdykay]

The fear of old world tarantulas is mostly unfounded and more importantly the strict distinction in challenging and more dangerous "old worlds" and safer and easier "new worlds" irrational. This derives, as was already mentioned in this thread, from a handful of taratnulas from the old world, which definitely need to be handled with more care than your average tarantula, like Poecilotheria, due to their more serious bite ramifications, but has become entirely memetic due to way to broad generalisations, false conclusions and blatant misinformation.

First of all neither old nor new worlds are either by ancestry, behavior or venom potency in any way or form homogenous groups. The first aspect was already known for a long time, but genetic studies having become viable in arachnology in recent years have confirmed this to a larger degree than expected. Here is an example article on the topic, including a fairly comprehensive graph of tarantula phylogeny: Discovering the silk road: Nuclear and mitochondrial sequence data resolve the phylogenetic relationships among theraphosid spider subfamilies
You will quickly notice that families from Africa, Asia and the Americas are all over the place and phylogenetically speaking there is no such thing as old or new world tarantulas.

Furthermore everyone who has been around the tarantula scene for a while and/or kept a bunch of different genera and families will be able to attest that temperament of plenty of Theraphosinae, despite considered the calm new worlds, are anything but and just as challenging as some old worlds (by far the fiercest spider I ever kept was a X. sp. blue), whereas old worlds can be straight up angelic in behavior too. Its all down to a mixture of individuals, conditions, circumstances and genus rather than family - or geography for that matter. But my conclusion here would mostly be that old worlds are generally being unfairly demonized, in large part due to, for example, tarantulas like P. murinus, very common and therefore likely first or only old world kept, being improperly housed and cared for.

So last on the list: venom!
There is one particular line of reasoning I hear a lot and every time I do, I die a little bit inside: Because old worlds dont have urticating hair, their venom is more potent.
This is a very flawed argument and there is the underlying assumption that venom potency is just some linear scale and basically works like a video game, like venom lv.1 does 5 damage and lv.2 does 10! (Or the fact there are plenty old world without urticating hair) But thats most definitely not how that works. Most venom is highly specialized depending on the prey it is supposed to incapacitate and they have to be, because minute differences in venom composition and victim anatomy can cause tremendous differences in effect. And tarantula venom is designed to subdue prey, NOT for defensive purposes and most definitely not for defense against humans. You can be 100% sure that we did not have any kind of remotely significant influence on the evolution of tarantula venom potency, hence any and all effect their venom has on a human is dependent on exactly one factor: pure chance.
An example of the volatility of spider venom: Atrax, the infamous funnel web spiders, one of the most lethal venom to primates (despite the fact primates have only been around for a couple of years in Australia, for mygalemorph evolutionary time frames), according to Wikipedia the lethal dose for a macaque is 0.2mg per kg, yet for baby mice 1.5mg per kg, more than 7 times the amount! This is again entirely incidental.
Due to this instability and unpredictability of venom effects on humans, this means you cant really make any kind of safe claims about venom potency unless you actually check a tarantulas venoms effect. And for the vast majority of tarantulas we actually have no to little clue about it! We do know the venom of tarantulas can vary quite a bit, even within Theraphosinae for example, so technically everything is possible and you should handle pretty much any tarantula you dont know for sure what their venom potency on humans is, carefully. No, it is not likely that newly found fictional Theraphosinae sp. venom will kill you in 20 minutes, but the chance it might be pretty darn unpleasant exists.
Also its not just venom potency that determines the danger of a tarantula, quantity obviously matters too and related to that, whether a tarantula actually uses venom on defensive bites. I remember an anecdote by Tobias Hauke, who worked with spider venom scientifiically, showcasing the vials used for venom extraction, saying where an average Selenocosmiinae would only produce a few droplets per milking, a big Poecilotheria would almost fill it. So its no surprise their bites are as bad as they often are, they produce a lot of venom and are not stingy with it, but its not necessarily their venom potency thats so bad.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

Wow....just wow....
If there is a poor way to represent the arachnoculturists would be this post.

Poor analogy, poor representation of the hobby.

The statements made reminds me of the nutbag I met in the early 90's at a reptile swap in Chicago. He was selling baby crocodiles, not alligators...crocodiles you read that right. He was trying to sell them to a guy he was talking to trying to build them up. He also had huge scars running up and down both of his arms from you guessed it. These baby crocs were 1 foot long.

Here's 2 BIG reasons for you which is enough.

1. Responsibility, putting your want/need second and putting the people that live with you first for their safety. Regardless of one's own guru skills of rehousing. Humans are fallible we make mistakes, it's a fact.

2. As Kibosh has stated, keeping the hobby in a positive light. Nothing hurts it more than an escaped OW that can't be found which later bites a person living with you. If on top of the venom they have an allergic reaction and go to the ER God help us if the local news gets wind of it. I don't need to say anymore on that.

These are animals not a car, cigarette or any other innate object.

It is not fear that stops people from owning OW's that choose not to have them. It is responsibility in knowing one's limitations and safety of others and the tarantulas themselves.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

To each their own! I have a variety of NW and OW tarantulas but to be honest my favorite is probably my G. porteri. There's a reason a lot of these species are 'hobby classics' - they're awesome!

Yes but the definition 'hobby classics' originated in the U.S.A in a time were to find OW T's (and for that matter a lot of NW's as well) wasn't easy like in today's U.S is.

Here on this site, according to the words of long time U.S keepers (unfortunately, not anymore active on this site now), the situation described was a mass import (rules were of course different) of species like G. rosea, P. cancerides, and other few species. Not that much to choose, and, of course, not exactly many T's keepers back then.

That definition, anyway, remained.

Keep in mind that I'm 42 now, and I was a baby back then, so I'm talking of an helluva of time ago

 

[8 legged]

There is no reason to be afraid of OWs themselves, you just have to be afraid of many people who own OWs to hide a complex!
No idea about the animal, but a big mouth and the urge to be cool ...
... that makes OWs dangerous in my eyes! Types the questions: "What do you recommend me as the first tarantula? An OBT or a Ceratogyrus ..."
These are the hobby's crack bags!

 

[Kibosh]

There is no reason to be afraid of OWs themselves, you just have to be afraid of many people who own OWs to hide a complex!
No idea about the animal, but a big mouth and the urge to be cool ...
... that makes OWs dangerous in my eyes! Types the questions: "What do you recommend me as the first tarantula? An OBT or a Ceratogyrus ..."
These are the hobby's crack bags!

We need to be careful this discussion doesn't devolve into In Group Out Group psychology. Us vs Them. People who exclusively keep NW vs those who keep OW.

NW keepers are not some how weak or cowards for not wanting to keep OW's.

OW keepers are not egotistical or vain for wanting to keep OW's.

Let's support our interests and passions for these animals instead of trying to judge those passions.

Judge bad husbandry it's way more fun and productive. Haha

 

[8 legged]

This is your specialty and not mine. What I write is my opinion, which I can represent! There is no "us" for me, I represent myself and no one else. And people who keep dangerous animals and do not have the appropriate skills are dangerous. So I am not in the least interested in us versus them!

 

[Blueandbluer]

Nothing against anyone who wants to keep OWs, but they’re not for me. I’m just not that interested, when I was younger I had some OWs and I almost never saw them. I like my pet rocks. Also, I have a standing rule that I can’t have anything that might kill my cat.

 

[8 legged]

Nothing against anyone who wants to keep OWs, but they’re not for me. I’m just not that interested, when I was younger I had some OWs and I almost never saw them. I like my pet rocks. Also, I have a standing rule that I can’t have anything that might kill my cat.

I agree. I have OWs, but because of the interest in the species that it is OWs, it is just a coincidence or irrelevant to my interest.
To say that those in a certain household are too risky, I consider an example and an adult.

 

[0311usmc]

You threw out a lot of apples to oranges logical fallacies here as others have already pointed out lol.

I did poorly in school and have been a dumb construction worker ever since. Give me a little break, lol.

 

[Paul1126]

Personal preference, I would rather not have a tarantula that can teleport, wouldn't fancy rehousing one either.
I will stick with my Brachys

 

[0311usmc]

Wow....just wow....
If there is a poor way to represent the arachnoculturists would be this post.

Poor analogy, poor representation of the hobby.

The statements made reminds me of the nutbag I met in the early 90's at a reptile swap in Chicago. He was selling baby crocodiles, not alligators...crocodiles you read that right. He was trying to sell them to a guy he was talking to trying to build them up. He also had huge scars running up and down both of his arms from you guessed it. These baby crocs were 1 foot long.

Here's 2 BIG reasons for you which is enough.

1. Responsibility, putting your want/need second and putting the people that live with you first for their safety. Regardless of one's own guru skills of rehousing. Humans are fallible we make mistakes, it's a fact.

2. As Kibosh has stated, keeping the hobby in a positive light. Nothing hurts it more than an escaped OW that can't be found which later bites a person living with you. If on top of the venom they have an allergic reaction and go to the ER God help us if the local news gets wind of it. I don't need to say anymore on that.

These are animals not a car, cigarette or any other innate object.

It is not fear that stops people from owning OW's that choose not to have them. It is responsibility in knowing one's limitations and safety of others and the tarantulas themselves.

Thank you for your response.

 

[jc55]

I would say that educating yourself and knowing your limitations is what should be a deciding factor on what you own and decide to keep.

 

[Kibosh]

I did poorly in school and have been a dumb construction worker ever since. Give me a little break, lol.

It's so funny you say that. Anytime I would get bad grades my grandpa would tell me "World always needs garbage men"... He was a garbage man. Haha

 

[0311usmc]

It's so funny you say that. Anytime I would get bad grades my grandpa would tell me "World always needs garbage men"... He was a garbage man. Haha

Hahaha. My philosophy is I was born to be a laborer. Doesn't bother me one bit I just can't have intelligent conversations with most people.

 

[RezonantVoid]

I approach husbandry for my mild and deadly species the same. Instead of showing elevated caution only towards my Atracids and Actinopods, I use the same high level of caution towards everything, with a handful of exceptions. I think the same approach can be used towards NW and OW T's. If you think OW's are too much to handle, then IMO you've become too relaxed about managing NW's which are also very capable of bolty and defensive behaviour. Venom and speed don't factor in at all when I purchase something, only personal preference and if I can comfortably house it. I know this opinion is probably a little extreme, but it's just what I think.

Most of my T's are fully outside and visible every second or third night, and don't really care if I slide the lid of carefully for a photo or to add water. I never handle, but I sometimes put my fingers close by for a size comparison such as in these photos.




My best tip for keeping them is get them into their permanent setup as early as possible. To be honest I have never and will never understand the myth about an enclosure being too big, my T's see only 2 enclosures their entire lives and don't have a new home every 2 molts. Since many OW's are burrowers, there shouldn't be a fall risk in a large setup since most of the height is taken up by substrate

 

[Storm76]

First and foremost: To each their own. I respect different views on the subject of to, or not to, keep OWs.

That said, when I started keeping T's, my first were a juvie B. haarmori and a juvie P. irminia after doing months of research and coming here to ask questions that I felt weren't answered sufficiently just by reading up. I quickly had my collection grew and many people (Chad, Chase, Paul, Michael and more) suggested to dive into OWs.

At the time, while I loved the looks of various species, I simply didn't trust myself enough and wanted to avoid potentially being one of those that got in over their head and giving this wonderful hobby a bad news report. Besides - I also was wary of their venom primarily. As others said, humans make mistakes and a wild animal can be unpredictable, or rather - is in most cases.

Quick forward, I did eventually get some C. fimbriatus because I just couldn't resist their beauty anymore and decided to get a couple slings that I raised with no surprises and issues really. A P. subfusca followed that turned out male that I sent away for breeding once adult, then some surprise Poecies followed. Nowadays, my only OW remaining is my sp. "hati-hati" juvie that I can't wait for to molt again to make sure of it's sex.

Bottom line here: WIth the experiences made along the way described above, I don't think keeping OWs is any different than NWs, safe for an additional layer of awareness that if I make a mistake, I'll pay for it worse than if my any of my other would bite me - which I accept. There is nothing manly, bold or special about keeping OWs. If one's aware of the differences in comparison to NWs, knows about their quirks and traits and prepares accordingly - they're just as rewarding to keep for the interested than any other species of T. And I commend those that decide they won't keep any because of worry for other people in their household - that's a level of common sense and maturity not seen often these days for some reason!

The above said, I do agree that if someone isn't comfortable about keeping OWs, they simply shouldn't. That, too, is common sense. If you think you won't manage, don't get one. For me it was literally the confidence raising and keeping all my others T's that eventually had me jump into OWs as well, proving that the often suggested "stepping stones method" working.

If I had the means, I'd easily add a bunch of them to my collection again - and I certainly will once financials allow for it!

 

[LucN]

And I commend those that decide they won't keep any because of worry for other people in their household - that's a level of common sense and maturity not seen often these days for some reason!

There's another reason, one of the people I share the house is phobic to an extent, so out of respect I stick with Pet Rock Ts, which I have no issues doing so. They're not likely to bolt and are fairly easy to work with. And another factor is the longevity for females. That's a big, BIG factor for me. I want something I'll enjoy longer than a typical dog, so a spider that lives 10-15 years isn't cutting it for me. I want those extra decades. I wouldn't feel comfortable owning an animal that moves faster than I can react. The slower beginner NWs are very predictable and I have yet to witness a threat posture from any of mine, just the occasional stubbornness to move during a rehouse I have enough stress at my day job, I don't need it in my hobby.

 

[Storm76]

There's another reason, one of the people I share the house is phobic to an extent, so out of respect I stick with Pet Rock Ts, which I have no issues doing so. They're not likely to bolt and are fairly easy to work with. And another factor is the longevity for females. That's a big, BIG factor for me. I want something I'll enjoy longer than a typical dog, so a spider that lives 10-15 years isn't cutting it for me. I want those extra decades. I wouldn't feel comfortable owning an animal that moves faster than I can react. The slower beginner NWs are very predictable and I have yet to witness a threat posture from any of mine, just the occasional stubbornness to move during a rehouse I have enough stress at my day job, I don't need it in my hobby.

Not to derail this thread, but just to point out a few things:

Careful, NWs can be just as unpredictable as OWs and just as fast. That said, they -are- usually more laid back in their reactions (which some still describe as docile = to me nowadays just seems wrong as these animals cannot be tamed) and aren't as prone to display that level of agility in most circumstances. But if you ever decided to keep, say an Acanthoscurria geniculata, or any Pamphobeteus sp. for example, they'll quickly show you what I mean. Just don't get lulled into a false sense of security thinking they'll always be the way you experienced so far, sometimes a spider changes its entire behavior after a molt. So, watch your fingers

 

[CommanderBacon]

I can’t really add anything that people haven’t already said, but for me it wasn’t fear so much as me just not trusting myself to deal with a faster species that has more potent venom. I kept Ts for 3 years before I got my first OW, and I mainly got them because they were a fantastic deal I couldn’t pass up.

I’ve got gnarly anxiety and am super high strung, but also I am slow. This combo isn’t a great recipe for dealing with fast spiders, although I keep huntsmen and wolf spiders. My first impulse is to jump or jerk back when anything unexpected happens, so when I deal with my OW, I take a deep breath and mentally prepare myself for them to bolt or do something wacky like run up my arm so I don’t put them at risk.

I mean, I jump when the elevator opens and there are people inside, for crying out loud. I really don’t handle surprises well.