Why is hybridization bad?

[ArborealLotus]

Yeah, unless invertebrates are of the same species, nothing will come of a mating attempt anyway.

This is not accurate as a blanket statement.

A fascinating paper on hybridization and extinction - discussing mechanisms and relationships, what we know or can't know, limitations of the data, etc.

Hybridization and extinction - PMC

Hybridization may drive rare taxa to extinction through genetic swamping, where the rare form is replaced by hybrids, or by demographic swamping, where population growth rates are reduced due to the wasteful production of maladaptive hybrids. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Scroll down a little for a few paragraphs on risks of husbandry and captive populations.
This would be especially relevant for the complications around keeping endangered Poecilotheria species thinking one day we may be able to re-assist the wild populations.

Somewhat less so, but still intriguing of, oh for example, a Brachypelma x sp, or of individual specimens or groups which may never leave the hobby to interact with natural habitats again. However, unintentional or even intentional release is a perpetual shadow over the captive trade.

Recalling the problem of the Burmese python in the FL evergaldes (not for hybridization - thought to have been released by, or escaped from - a human's captivity).

 

[Introvertebrate]

S

Factually incorrect. Closely related inverts can interbreed in captivity causing numerous bloodline issues. Occasionally this happens accidentally (particularly with Hisser species) but far too often it is the result of intentional manipulations by unqualified individuals who don't think about the long term consequences to the gene pool.

So regardless of whether there’s human intervention or not, it sounds like those hybrid bloodlines will eventually die out. So what’s the problem? Much ado about nothing if you ask me.

This is not accurate as a blanket statement.

I’m more of a comforter guy myself.

 

[ArborealLotus]

S
So regardless of whether there’s human intervention or not, it sounds like those hybrid bloodlines will eventually die out. So what’s the problem? Much ado about nothing if you ask me.

It's more about the loss of the parent species. Often hybrids in captivity have higher success due to the failure to be "selected against" by conditions in a natural environment should a genome edit prove maladaptive.
The hobby as a whole does a poor job at tracking lineages / documenting such things. It's likely impossible to know when or which changes in the DNA of our Ts may have already occurred since their original "harvested" ancestors were borrowed or taken from the wild.

 

[Introvertebrate]

It's more about the loss of the parent species. Often hybrids in captivity have higher success due to the failure to be "selected against" by conditions in a natural environment should a genome edit prove maladaptive.
The hobby as a whole does a poor job at tracking lineages / documenting such things. It's likely impossible to know when or which changes in the DNA of our Ts may have already occurred since their original "harvested" ancestors were borrowed or taken from the wild.

So why do we need the parents if the hybrids are more successful? It seems like the story keeps changing.

 

[ArborealLotus]

So why do we need the parents if the hybrids are more successful? It seems like the story keeps changing.

Gonna zoom out to address that. Its not possible to "answer the question" of hybridization in a single sentence. The story is not changing. There are exceptions around every corner. I didn't try to say they are more successful than the parents - they are more successful than if it were to happen naturally. Tom's article I shared at the beginning would be good to peek into.

The Importance of Biodiversity to Human Life | Biology II

courses.lumenlearning.com

 

[Edan bandoot]

So why do we need the parents if the hybrids are more successful? It seems like the story keeps changing.

Why keep multiple species if T albo is so successful

Not a great stance to take.

 

[goliathusdavid]

So why do we need the parents if the hybrids are more successful?

Because unqualified human interference in wildlife gene pools and natural selection is, believe it or not, generally not a good thing. And it comes with consequences.

 

[MasterOogway]

So why do we need the parents if the hybrids are more successful?

Because outbreeding depression is a real thing; and while you may anecdotally observe some 'hybrid vigor' in the first gen offspring, this can actually just be covering up actual real problems caused by crossing two genetically disparate populations/species that then rear up in 2nd, 3rd, (n) generations down the line that are at that point irrecoverable.

Don't hybridize your animals.

 

[Dimity]

Factually incorrect. Closely related inverts can interbreed in captivity causing numerous bloodline issues. Occasionally this happens accidentally (particularly with Hisser species) but far too often it is the result of intentional manipulations by unqualified individuals who don't think about the long term consequences to the gene pool.


HUMANS ARE THE SAME SPECIES. Not what we are talking about here, at all. Eugenics is a COMPLETELY separate debate that is utterly inappropriate for this forum- because there is no debate. This is a discussion relating to preserving the genetic diversity of individual species which can be threatened by hybridization.

That's what I wanted to say only better! Thank you!!!

 

[MrTwister]

Walk into any pet store and look at their tank of “African cichlids”. All of them are hybrids which may not even resemble the original species. Now say your really into fish and want a specific species. You see one in this tank, it’s cool looking...just like the species you want. You get it and decide to breed it....you now have a tank of fry which look nothing like the parent fish, and you have no idea what species any of them are.

 

[Dimity]

I was replying to the point about people, not fish. I believe people have the to love the other person of their choice. Interesting though when I did keep fish I had Central American Cichlids. Red Devils. Not Red Parrots, which are hybrids. One orange female and one cream male in separate tanks where they couldn't see each other. When I moved the tanks and they could see each other that male turned orange almost overnight. I bred them successfully and had babies that looked just like the parents. But not until they grew up. Look what that male did for love...

(have the right to love)

 

[Introvertebrate]

I was replying to the point about people, not fish. I believe people have the to love the other person of their choice...........

How ‘bout Anna Nicole Smith? I hope that hybrid looks more like her.

 

[Jumbie Spider]

Walk into any pet store and look at their tank of “African cichlids”. All of them are hybrids which may not even resemble the original species. Now say your really into fish and want a specific species. You see one in this tank, it’s cool looking...just like the species you want. You get it and decide to breed it....you now have a tank of fry which look nothing like the parent fish, and you have no idea what species any of them are.

Look at what abominations Flowerhorns are. Who wants Tarantula Flowerhorns? (watch the Flowerhorn defenders come to roast me).

 

[The Snark]

and while you may anecdotally observe some 'hybrid vigor'

I thought you were above getting into the Möbius loop discussion.

At the LA County arboretum, Santa Anita, it revolved around roses. The rose garden adjacent to the Queen Anne Cottage specifically. I was told the discussion which started in the late 1800s had actually been a rehash that dated back to the prude era of maintaining the royal bloodlines of European nobility and we can safely assume it was an ongoing discussion back when some obscure Egyptian pseudo demigod pharaoh was getting some nookie with his sister behind the local pyramid. Regression ad infinitum?

The basic argument, now and then involving integument was 'There is nothing wrong with hybridization' and the rebuttal that as nature has established that the odds are 99.9% it will ultimately fail and damage entire ecosystems in the process. This of course is disputed and then it is pointed out nature is ahead of the game in that 99.9% of sporting leads to evolutionary dead ends................................. and the discussion goes on and on and on and on and on....
The hybrid vigor aspect never takes into account the long range effect on the species and the environment it lives in. As example, all the hybrid roses which are entirely reliant on human intervention to continue their existence. Without said intervention the roses will decline back to their original ancestry traits in a synthetically altered environment. Carry on. I'm heading back under my rug for an advanced course in piano tuning.

The Dude and his sixteen year old fourth wife. Natch.

Historic Structures - The ArboretumThe Arboretum

Queen Anne Cottage Elias Jackson (“Lucky”) Baldwin’s Queen Anne Cottage was constructed in 1885-86, probably as a honeymoon gift for his fourth wife, sixteen- year-old Lillie Bennett. “For a year after she married Baldwin (May, 1884), this little girl was queen of the ranch,” wrote the Los...

www.arboretum.org

 

[MasterOogway]

I thought you were above getting into the Möbius loop discussion.

I know I know. Hybridization really gets me worked into a tizzy though. Especially because keeping frogs was my primary hobby (pre-child) and that discussion has been beaten to death in that realm and STILL people come in with "Why can't I cross my frogs tho." Grinds my gears, as Homer Simpson would say.

 

[The Snark]

@MasterOogway You may have hit on something there. If anyone could contribute something new and useful to the topic it would be Homer.