Why is hybridization bad?

[Fergus]

Just started keeping some hissing cockroaches, and because quarantine is boring and I don't know how to have a casual interest in anything I've gone down a rabbit hole of reading about invertebrate care. In the process I've stumbled across some stuff about how hybridization is frowned upon in the hobby. I was wondering why exactly? Apologies if I've inadvertently stepped upon a land mine here but I'm genuinely just curious; please rest assured I have no intention of breeding anything and my roommates would certainly kill me if I did.

 

[ArborealLotus]

In short, its complicated.
Here's a great read on the matter!

Tarantula Hybridization in the Hobby (Tarantula Controversies #5)

It’s one of the hobby’s most hot-button topics, and one that elicits spirited and emotional responses from both sides of the argument. For many, the topic of hybridization is a fascinating one, and…

tomsbigspiders.com

Ooh - here's an old but not obsolete forum discussing it as well:

Hybrid Tarantulas

hi just wondering if any of ya out there had some info on the topic, some questions though, is it legal to make hybrib t's, how is it possibly to do(like could i breed a H. Lividum with a H. Schmidti?), what would be the big problem with hybrids on the market????, i personaly think it would be...

arachnoboards.com

 

[Poonjab]

A lot of people in the hobby are collectors. We don’t want muddy genes. Only want pure and authentic. I know I sure as heck don’t want some Frankenstein T.

 

[Fergus]

In short, its complicated.
Here's a great read on the matter!

Tarantula Hybridization in the Hobby (Tarantula Controversies #5)

It’s one of the hobby’s most hot-button topics, and one that elicits spirited and emotional responses from both sides of the argument. For many, the topic of hybridization is a fascinating one, and…

tomsbigspiders.com

A good read indeed, thanks!

 

[RoachCoach]

If I want to buy a box of cinnamon toast crunch and I get captain cinnamon crunch Walmart brand then I didn't pay for what I got. But if Walmart didn't know they were selling the captain brand to me because there was zero regulation then I can't blame them. Except when I get more cereal, its now half Captain Oats/ General Crisps/ Cinnamon Crunch and I have to eat it with water.

 

[The Snark]

@RoachCoach Uhhhh, consider a Valium and a nap? Want to see the irresistible force vs immovable object in action? Bring this subject up among environmentalists, conservationists, geneticists, ecologists..........
I'll be under the rug retuning my piano.

 

[Matts inverts]

Some people buy some not knowing it’s a hybrid because like hissers, you cat tell the species easily like wide horn hissers because females don’t have the horns and they hybridize in the wild. Other arachnids like tarantulas are just mixed because they look similar like B. smiti or B. hamorii. Just don’t do it because in insects, it does not make them look different like reptiles, they just look the same and mess up the bloodline.

 

[Conor10]

In short, its complicated.
Here's a great read on the matter!

Tarantula Hybridization in the Hobby (Tarantula Controversies #5)

It’s one of the hobby’s most hot-button topics, and one that elicits spirited and emotional responses from both sides of the argument. For many, the topic of hybridization is a fascinating one, and…

tomsbigspiders.com

Never knew anything about that, it’s one hell of a good read lol.

 

[goliathusdavid]

That is a very good read. I'd like to go a little bit beyond it. Intentional hybridization is frowned upon not only in the hobby community but also extensively in the scientific community. Its effects on long term genetics of a species can, in some cases, be devastating, particularly if that species has limited numbers in captivity. In some rare cases hybridization has proved helpful in increasing genetic diversity, but the vast majority of the time it simply pollutes the gene pool, which can cause long term issues. In summary, it should be used only as a last resort in conservation (and new tech is allowing for amazing alternatives such as the recent cloning of century old Black Footed Ferret DNA).
Here is a fascinating NCBI paper outlining how hybridization can, in some cases, bring about extinction. I will be honest right now and say I don't understand everything in this work, some of it is far beyond my limited capabilities. But the general concensus in at least the scientific group I hang around in is that deliberate hybridization of different species of wildlife is a dangerous human manipulation - and one that can come with serious consequences. In the rare cases where it is deemed appropriate or necessary for a species it should be done carefully, under the supervision of a government or institution, and with full understanding of the possible consequences.

 

[sk063]

When it comes to a pet, I want what I'm paying for PERIOD. However, I also keep bees, and I'll be completely honest, the healthiest, most hygienic, most productive honeybees I have are most definitely mixed breed. They tend to make the best decisions on when to start in spring and how to prepare for winter. Leaving me to deal with the issues of parasites, and that's about it. " Our fault BTW " It's really not a fair comparison, I want bee's that are easy to handle, make lot's of honey, and survive year to year. When I buy a tarantula, I want the species I paid for, not some mut that will live years and years.

 

[Edan bandoot]

Many of the species in the hobby are illegal to export/endangered so our genepool in the hobby is limited. Hybridization weakens our already small genepool.

 

[viper69]

Hybrids = FrankenAnimals

I’m buying a Ford AC Cobra, not some kit car that isn’t the real thing!!!!!

 

[Introvertebrate]

Many of the species in the hobby are illegal to export/endangered so our genepool in the hobby is limited. Hybridization weakens our already small genepool.

It will mix the characteristics of both ‘parents’ but for the well being of the animal, that actually strengthens the gene pool. Dogs have been bred into very distinct and interesting variations. In the process, a lot of potential mutations have been introduced. Mutts are genetically healthier.

 

[jc55]

It could lead to the destruction of species we know and who knows what the end result could be when all said and done and that doesn't begin to touch on the environmental and scientific aspect of hybridization which all equals a big nightmare in my opinion.

 

[goliathusdavid]

It will mix the characteristics of both ‘parents’ but for the well being of the animal, that actually strengthens the gene pool. Dogs have been bred into very distinct and interesting variations. In the process, a lot of potential mutations have been introduced. Mutts are genetically healthier.

Dogs are the same species. This is not applicable. Everyone points to ball python morphs and dog breeds but these are all within ONE species. Hybridization BETWEEN species can lead to a weakening of the gene pool in both, in some cases threatening the individual species' term survival. There are rare cases in endangered animals where hybridization has been successfully used for conservation, but these are individual cases in a practice generally seen as genetically destructive.

 

[Liquifin]

You know, A lot of people use the Frankenstein reference and what not, but it's actually more complicated than that. I might go on a tangent, but understand where I'm coming from. Whatever specimens we get from the wild into captivity for this hobby... That's it for most cases. Meaning we're most likely not getting anymore of that species from the wild and especially endangered species of tarantulas with Poecilotheria's being an example of endangered species of tarantula in captivity. It's true that hybrids maybe be beneficial in terms of genetics, but understand that the genepool cannot be reversed once done. I don't know why people keep using "Dogs/Cats" as examples but that is so far away from invertebrates that it's like playing tennis on a baseball field.

A lot people don't understand, but by creating hybrids, you're actually wiping the species out without even recognizing it. By adding different species genetics, you're getting farther away from what it once was genetically. Scientifically, by creating hybrids, it can be somewhat be seen as a new species and not what its parents was.

I know as an Asian, we have niche lessons. But there is one fact that Asians have understood and taught to each generation in terms of breeding any animal. Whether it be Koi, Cattle, Birds, etc.:
"You can always add to a bloodline each generation, but you cannot take back from it".

 

[goliathusdavid]

Whatever specimens we get from the wild into captivity for this hobby... That's it for most cases. Meaning we're most likely not getting anymore of that species from the wild and especially endangered species of tarantulas with Poecilotheria's being an example of endangered species of tarantula in captivity.

Really do need to start a thread (probably in not so spineless wonders) about the complicated ethics of individuals keeping endangered species. Thank you for this post though, it is fantastic

 

[Introvertebrate]

Dogs are the same species. This is not applicable. Everyone points to ball python morphs and dog breeds but these are all within ONE species. Hybridization BETWEEN species can lead to a weakening of the gene pool in both, in some cases threatening the individual species' term survival. There are rare cases in endangered animals where hybridization has been successfully used for conservation, but these are individual cases in a practice generally seen as genetically destructive.

So you’re talking about some sort of gene splicing experiment. Yeah, unless invertebrates are of the same species, nothing will come of a mating attempt anyway. I know the dart frog guys disapprove of mixing different variants of the same species. Not because it’s unhealthy, but because the offspring will no longer have the distinctive coloration patterns of their parents.

 

[ignithium]

I think its interesting that 99% of people on here will agree that there is an intrinsic value in preserving the purity of bloodlines in animals but to even suggest that this can be carried over to humans is blasphemy of the highest regard

 

[goliathusdavid]

So you’re talking about some sort of gene splicing experiment. Yeah, unless invertebrates are of the same species, nothing will come of a mating attempt anyway.

Factually incorrect. Closely related inverts can interbreed in captivity causing numerous bloodline issues. Occasionally this happens accidentally (particularly with Hisser species) but far too often it is the result of intentional manipulations by unqualified individuals who don't think about the long term consequences to the gene pool.

I think its interesting that 99% of people on here will agree that there is an intrinsic value in preserving the purity of bloodlines in animals but to even suggest that this can be carried over to humans is blasphemy of the highest regard

HUMANS ARE THE SAME SPECIES. Not what we are talking about here, at all. Eugenics is a COMPLETELY separate debate that is utterly inappropriate for this forum- because there is no debate. This is a discussion relating to preserving the genetic diversity of individual species which can be threatened by hybridization.