Which is it?

[justanotherTkeeper]

Spider mail came today! One of my new t's was sold to me as Phormingochilus arboricola / Lampropelma sp. "Borneo Black"

In my research on this beauty, I've found them called just Phormingochilus arboricola. I've also found them called just Lampropelma sp. "Borneo Black"

My fingers are poised over the keys on my label maker... somebody please tell me which one to type

 

[emartinm28]

As an undescribed species, it was called Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black. As a described species, it is Phormingochilus arboricola.

 

[Smotzer]

It used to be under Lapropelma nigerrimum arboricola, which was thought to be a subsp. It was elevated in 2019 to species status as Phormingochilus arboricola.

But I’m not sure what Lapropelma Sp. Black is though.

https://wsc.nmbe.ch/pdfdownload/d6f112650bbb9fc527305e7f9d41762d0k68hbpxMozAOkv

 

[justanotherTkeeper]

Hmmmm... how about this; if I were to post pictures of this specimen on AB, would I put it in the Phormingochilus gallery, or the Lampropelma gallery?

Maybe this will help my label-making

 

[Smotzer]

I will just quote myself again

It was elevated in 2019 to species status as Phormingochilus arboricola.

 

[viper69]

Hmmmm... how about this; if I were to post pictures of this specimen on AB, would I put it in the Phormingochilus gallery, or the Lampropelma gallery?

Maybe this will help my label-making

Color me crazy, how about you read the info that was posted.

 

[ccTroi]

Spider mail came today! One of my new t's was sold to me as Phormingochilus arboricola / Lampropelma sp. "Borneo Black"

In my research on this beauty, I've found them called just Phormingochilus arboricola. I've also found them called just Lampropelma sp. "Borneo Black"

My fingers are poised over the keys on my label maker... somebody please tell me which one to type

Former Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black is now Phormingochilus arboricola. They are more known to be the former as their taxonomic revision is relatively new. They will have brown coloration when young and will get progressively darker in following molts until they are uniformly black. Sexual dimorphism can be observed before maturity as males will retain a brown coloration while females will become black as they molt. Similarly, Lampropelma nigerrimum also display this where males will become brown in successive molts after about 2” whereas females will remain black with purple easily seen under flashlight. Slings will burrow. They will continue their burrowing behavior as they mature but will vertically build on to their burrows.

Below is a post from another thread that briefly goes over how I keep younger Asian tarantulas. I figured it might help. Concept and tips apply to the Borneo Black. Hope you enjoy your spider

I give my Asian tarantula slings very limited space until they are at least 1.5” in which I rehouse them in a 32oz or 16oz cup (32oz for specimens I have no concerns for; 16oz for specimens that are reluctant to eat or require frequent monitoring). Until then, I house my specimens and other Asian arboreals in 5.5oz cups with substrate filled halfway. The smaller cups don’t have much space so I ditch the bottle cap for water. Instead, I include a small piece of sphagnum moss and make sure it is always damp. I don’t like the substrate uniformly wet or even moist. If at all, the substrate surrounding the moss (or bottle cap if you prefer this) is the only part that gets moist. What works best for me in ensuring a quick acclimation of the spider is to give it a deep starter burrow. My spiders are quick to adopt this and will usually eat sooner than those who haven’t adopted the burrow. This species in particular will web its burrow (or wherever it bunkered at). Seeing webbing is a sign for me that it has acclimated and may be ready to accept a meal.

From the picture, my initial observations is the substrate is too wet, and there’s no starter burrow. I would suggest redoing the enclosure or rehousing the spider into one similar to the aforementioned setup. Ensure there is always drinking water (either in a form of damp moss or bottle cap) and give it a couple days to acclimate. Or maybe it just needs more time to settle. Look for webbing!

View attachment 382623 One of my Hati Hati specimens.
View attachment 382624 One of my electric blues. Not an arboreal, but many OW arboreals will burrow. Just another example of the setup.
View attachment 382625 One of my L. nigerrimum specimens in a 16oz cup setup. I ran out of 5.5oz cups so I’m using a 16oz deli for this particular specimen. Spider is 3/4” and will be rehoused to a 32oz once it reaches 1.5”.
View attachment 382626 View attachment 382627 A couple P. sp. “Sabah blue” and their identical setup in a 32oz cup. Considerably less substrate but given lots of moss so they can incorporate it in their burrow. Like mentioned before, I waited until I see webbing and a defined burrow before attempting to feed.

Hope this helps

Hmmmm... how about this; if I were to post pictures of this specimen on AB, would I put it in the Phormingochilus gallery, or the Lampropelma gallery?

Maybe this will help my label-making

Phormingochilus

 

[justanotherTkeeper]

I will just quote myself again

Thank you!

 

[Smotzer]

Thank you!

No problem!

 

[justanotherTkeeper]

Color me crazy, how about you read the info that was posted.

I did read it
It's not super helpful when you ask a question and someone says, "Well, here's an answer, BUT also here's a bunch of other information that will confuse you even further!"

 

[Smotzer]

It's not super helpful when you ask a question and someone says, "Well, here's an answer, BUT also here's a bunch of other information that will confuse you even further!"

Sorry, What was confusing, im
Not following? The actual Taxonomy? I mean I gave the the link for the paper where the taxonomy change you were inquiring about was described, as well as how it is listed in WSC- which shows history of your species from Lapropelma to Phormingochilus.

 

[justanotherTkeeper]

Sorry, What was confusing, im
Not following? The actual Taxonomy? I mean I gave the the link for the paper where the taxonomy change you were inquiring about was described, as well as how it is listed in WSC- which shows history of your species from Lapropelma to Phormingochilus.

Yes, sorry. For me, the taxonomy has usually been a bunch of mumbo jumbo I just can't seem to wrap my head around. I always try to respectfully ask simple questions to get simple answers. What can I say, I'm simple lol

 

[Smotzer]

Yes, sorry. For me, the taxonomy has usually been a bunch of mumbo jumbo I just can't seem to wrap my head around. I always try to respectfully ask simple questions to get simple answers. What can I say, I'm simple lol

Ohh okay no worries, yeah it can be a lot to wrap your head around at first, but it is kinda whhat its all about, I suppose I could hhave just said thhe genus and nothing else, but for me I like to know where my info comes from and read the papers, hence why I gave it to you as well, incase you wanted to read it. I suggest chhallenging yourself to read some papers, only way to get used to it is by reading it and using it, youll get the hang of it over time, if you allow yourself to.

 

[justanotherTkeeper]

Ohh okay no worries, yeah it can be a lot to wrap your head around at first, but it is kinda whhat its all about, I suppose I could hhave just said thhe genus and nothing else, but for me I like to know where my info comes from and read the papers, hence why I gave it to you as well, incase you wanted to read it. I suggest chhallenging yourself to read some papers, only way to get used to it is by reading it and using it, youll get the hang of it over time, if you allow yourself to.

Thank you for your encouragement, and for being so nice Maybe with some more reading, I'll get the hang of it one day

 

[Smotzer]

Thank you for your encouragement, and for being so nice Maybe with some more reading, I'll get the hang of it one day

Youre welcome!!

 

[viper69]

bunch of mumbo jumbo

Common names are mumbo jumbo

I just can't seem to wrap my head around.

What can't you wrap your head around...the scientific names are just names.

 

[justanotherTkeeper]

Common names are mumbo jumbo



What can't you wrap your head around...the scientific names are just names.

I only use scientific names. But the explanation of classifications, etc., is the mumbo jumbo part to me. I don't need to know why this species and that species has this or that scientific name, I just want to know what the name is so I can reference them properly, research their correct care, and not seem like an idiot in general.

But, as @Smotzer said, I think I'll start brushing up on some articles, and seeing if I can make less mumbo of this jumbo

 

[l4nsky]

A lot of tarantula's aren't taxonomically sound, so we can expect quite frequent revisions of their classifications (Having said that, latin names are still way more accurate and precise than common names). I believe this species entered into the hobby as Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black. The main thing to know about hobby names and the sp. abbreviation (which is used when the specimen can't be identified as a described, or known-to-science, species) is that they are educated guesses at best. It's also not the best practice to use a genus name for undescribed species, as we as hobbyists and collectors typically don't have the knowledge about genus morphology to make that assertion. For example, Ornithoctoninae sp. Hati Hati is better than Cyriopagopus sp. Hati Hati. The reason is we can't really be sure this undescribed species belongs to the Cyriopagopus genus, but we can be reasonably certain it belongs to the Ornithoctoninae family (which contains the genus Cyriopagopus as well as Lampropelma, Phormingochilus, etc). Anyways, I digress. Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black was classified as a subspecies of Lampropelma nigerrimum in 2015 and became officially described as Lampropelma nigerrimum arboricola. Then, in 2019, another taxonomic revision was done and Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black/Lampropelma nigerrimum arboricola was both elevated to a distinct species in its own right, and reclassified in a different genus. In the eyes of the scientific community, it became Phormingochilus arboricola. Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black and Lampropelma nigerrimum arboricola became nomina dubia (singular form is nomina dubium, both meaning doubtful name) or in other words, synonyms for Phormingochilus arboricola. All 3 names belong to the exact same spider, but Phormingochilus arboricola is the preferred and scientifically correct name for this stunning species at this time and should be used going forward (until the next revision lol).

 

[justanotherTkeeper]

A lot of tarantula's aren't taxonomically sound, so we can expect quite frequent revisions of their classifications (Having said that, latin names are still way more accurate and precise than common names). I believe this species entered into the hobby as Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black. The main thing to know about hobby names and the sp. abbreviation (which is used when the specimen can't be identified as a described, or known-to-science, species) is that they are educated guesses at best. It's also not the best practice to use a genus name for undescribed species, as we as hobbyists and collectors typically don't have the knowledge about genus morphology to make that assertion. For example, Ornithoctoninae sp. Hati Hati is better than Cyriopagopus sp. Hati Hati. The reason is we can't really be sure this undescribed species belongs to the Cyriopagopus genus, but we can be reasonably certain it belongs to the Ornithoctoninae family (which contains the genus Cyriopagopus as well as Lampropelma, Phormingochilus, etc). Anyways, I digress. Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black was classified as a subspecies of Lampropelma nigerrimum in 2015 and became officially described as Lampropelma nigerrimum arboricola. Then, in 2019, another taxonomic revision was done and Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black/Lampropelma nigerrimum arboricola was both elevated to a distinct species in its own right, and reclassified in a different genus. In the eyes of the scientific community, it became Phormingochilus arboricola. Lampropelma sp. Borneo Black and Lampropelma nigerrimum arboricola became nomina dubia (singular form is nomina dubium, both meaning doubtful name) or in other words, synonyms for Phormingochilus arboricola. All 3 names belong to the exact same spider, but Phormingochilus arboricola is the preferred and scientifically correct name for this stunning species at this time and should be used going forward (until the next revision lol).

As convoluted as it seems, that actually makes some sense to me! Thanks for that detailed explanation

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

It's also not the best practice to use a genus name for undescribed species, as we as hobbyists and collectors typically don't have the knowledge about genus morphology to make that assertion. For example, Ornithoctoninae sp. Hati Hati is better than Cyriopagopus sp. Hati Hati. The reason is we can't really be sure this undescribed species belongs to the Cyriopagopus genus, but we can be reasonably certain it belongs to the Ornithoctoninae family (which contains the genus Cyriopagopus as well as Lampropelma, Phormingochilus, etc).

I don't understand what is meant by these statements. If a good definition of a genus is available, then anyone could verify the genus their tarantula belongs to whether they are hobby collectors or expert specialists. Same with subfamily. All tarantula subfamilies have a good definition so there is no need for anyone to be "reasonably certain" of the subfamily; it is possible to know for sure.

Take Phormigochilus arboricola for example. Gabriel & Sherwood (2019) provide the following definition for the genus Phormingochilus...

Rounded apex of the male palpal bulb in apical view
Absence of swelling to the apical embolus
Leg one 2-3 mm longer than leg four in females
Distribution limited to Borneo

They also state that the presence of a megaspine on the inside of of the male tibial apophysis maybe of generic significance.

Using that definition of the genus Phormingochilus, except for the distribution, it is possible to determine if your Asian ornithoctonine belongs to that genus or not. Of course, I can't say that is a good definition and it certainly doesn't lend itself to be useful in any kind of practical sense for identifying live tarantulas, but it is the best we have for now. For example, to examine the embolus you need a dead male. If you attempt to identify a female based on the small difference of 2-3 mm between leg 1 and 4, you better be sure you stretch the legs out fully and read the paper to determine how the authors measured so you can use the exact same method. Spoiler alert, they don't say how they measured.

However, Gabriel & Sherwood (2019) do not provide a good definition of the species Phormingochilus arboricola only stating, "... its full species status is recognised, based on the difference in leg spination to other known Borneo species."

They don't say what the difference is between the leg spination of P. arboricola and other Phormingochilus species so a species level identification is not possible. I'm also hesitant to take leg spination as a species level character seriously since it can be highly variable and not a good character for species level delimitation in other tarantula taxa.