WARNING- HR6311 now HR669

[arachnocat]

Check out this brochure from the National Environmental Coaliton on Invasive Species: http://www.necis.net/files/brochure-to-support-h.r.-669-2.pdf
Not only is it filled with tons of misinformation, It shows a ball python and says it's a burmese python. I guess a snake is a snake to these people. Why would you need to get your facts straight about the very animals you're trying to ban?
Anyway, I thought it was interesting to see what the other side is doing...

 

[JoeRossi]

You have not heard

You have not heard the new specie found in Imfulacrap, Cornholio. Yes a man eating 3 ft Burmese. They are also letting loose venemus gardner snakes as well in California. One bite and you start biting others then it spreads to an infectious mutaion killing everyone....or was that a movie:?


HA! Thanks for sharing and you have to be kiddddddddding me!

 

[ThomasH]

To all that oppose this bill... You do realize that all the animals you currently own are grandfathered, dont you? You do realize species that are approved will still be able to be shipped across state lines, dont you?

And most importantly, you all do realize that this bill will do more to protect our ecosystems from irresponsible keepers than anything else we could do? I mean really... There are a lot of things that should not be brought in as they have amazing potential to do damage. We need more regulations on importation of live animals...

All the arguments I have seen related to the bill are simply people being selfish and not wanting to face the reality that some of these things could cause immense problems should they be released in certain areas. I would rather give up keeping a few things than have another everglades like scenario. Please people, realize that just because it might take away a few of your possible pets it is still a good thing for the native environments and ecosystems.

They may be grandfathered in but we can't expand the hobby with new species or get new animals. There will most likely be nothing exotic or nondomesticated on the approved list. The committe that would choose goes by flawed and later stated to be incorrect research. They share incorrect information and photos of improperly identified animals. They are a bad source to regulate us. I and most of the exotic animal community believe that we should comprimise with the government. They can make laws on how we own but they can't tell us if we own unless we go against their "how." They could make laws with punishments against negligent ownership like fines and possible jail time for being caught releasing nonnative wildlife. I just don't like the double standard with cats. If the government chooses to regulate us they should also regulate the cat community by simply illegalize letting your cat roam anywhere but your house. That would greatly relieve ecological pressure. But this will only help the environment up to a limit until our activities, as humans are regulated. But as of now unless they do these things, that is an unfair double standard that purely warrants protest against.
TBH

 

[ThomasH]

Pouchedrat, I can understand your feelings, but stop and think for a second how much damage can be caused by those pouched rats that were introduced. It is exactly why we need a law like this.

Not to mention that everything people are currently keeping is covered by the grandfather clause...You will still be allowed to keep the pouched rats/snakes/lizards/spiders/etc you have right now with no problems.

Edit: Also, cats should have been banned long ago. They are one of the most destructive animals ever introduced to the US.

As I stated, I stand for responsible ownership and committee comprimise without double standards. We will run into problems with animals we already own too. What if NO insects or rodents make the approved list? How will we maintain what we have if we can't feed them? What are we going to do? Watch them starve? If you can figure this out, than fine. I'll be all for HR 669. Cats as I stated in my last thread should be banned from the wilderness. Once again, responsible ownership!
TBH

 

[What]

NOTE: Numbering has been placed after the sentences being referenced, please keep this in mind.

They may be grandfathered in but we can't expand the hobby with new species or get new animals.1 There will most likely be nothing exotic or nondomesticated on the approved list.2 The committe that would choose goes by flawed and later stated to be incorrect research.3 They share incorrect information and photos of improperly identified animals. They are a bad source to regulate us.4 I and most of the exotic animal community believe that we should comprimise with the government.5 They can make laws on how we own but they can't tell us if we own unless we go against their "how." They could make laws with punishments against negligent ownership like fines and possible jail time for being caught releasing nonnative wildlife.6 I just don't like the double standard with cats.7
TBH

I count at least 4 baseless assumptions and a healthy dose to try and misdirect in your post. I have already agreed with you about cats, no need to preach.

Now... 1-4, all assumptions. We cannot know exactly who the government will use to do the research, but I can guarantee that companies like Flukers, Zoo Med, ExoTerra, and others will be putting up money for common species of herps to be allowed for import/approved. This passing in an economy such as we have now is a good thing, it will place economic pressure upon the companies that manufacture supplies, companies that are large enough for the government to take notice of if they start going down.

Anyways, a more targeted response to #1, ask yourself if the hobby really needs new species that have not been researched at all yet. How many one-off animals have been brought into the country that were in fact sensitive species? How many species have been almost destroyed due to collection for people that feel the need to have every new thing in their collection? Think about those issues, then decide if yours and others like you's whims are more important than preserving healthy ecosystems.

#5: How do you know that "most" of the hobby wants compromise? From much passive observation it seems to me that the majority of people keeping herps/inverts dont want any legislation restricting them. Even I dont want legislation, but we have come to a point where we need it to ensure both ecosystems abroad and at home's safety and well being.

#6: You do see that the bill covers that...dont you? Go check out section 6 of the bill.

#7: So you dislike it just because of cats not being on it? That seems to go against everything else you have said...

As I stated, I stand for responsible ownership and committee comprimise without double standards.1 We will run into problems with animals we already own too.2 What if NO insects or rodents make the approved list?3 How will we maintain what we have if we can't feed them?4 What are we going to do? Watch them starve? If you can figure this out, than fine.5 I'll be all for HR 669. Cats as I stated in my last thread should be banned from the wilderness. Once again, responsible ownership!6
TBH

#1: Double standards are a fact of life, but even so, in this case, no double standard exists. Cats are a whole different issue from herps/inverts/etc and have been being kept for far longer. I dont like that they arent being legislated against just as much as you, but whatever, go start a campaign for responsible cat ownership. That would do more good than complaining about the lack of legislation.

#2-5: There are still *tons* of native insects and plenty of native rats. Lab rats and common brown rats are probably already considered naturalized as they have been in this country for soo long. Note this section of the bill, this means that all species of herps/verts/inverts that are native are still fair game. So for invert food you have any number of crickets, roaches, grasshoppers, flies, and beetles(mealworms). These will all be totally clear to keep as they are currently occurring in the wild in the USA and have historically occurred.

#6: Responsible ownership is a great thing, but only really matters if it is practiced by 100% of people. As we can see from the everglades...it isnt.

So, now that I have gained your support for the bill, thank you for your time.(Or were you being faecetious when you said you would support it? )

 

[ThomasH]

So, now that I have gained your support for the bill, thank you for your time.(Or were you being faecetious when you said you would support it? )

Your answers left me dissatisfied and many were questionable. Therefore you have not gained my support.

Baseless? No. Assumptions? Well yes, but based on thorough research of other nations that have similar laws and random bills passed by the H.R.
You did not agree with me on cats. You said they should have been banned. I think that how people act with them should be regulated and it should be noted that they are ecological terrors but I never said "ban" as you did. I don't want just common species approved. I love my random Andros, Ts and snakes. Tokays have become invasive but I just couldn't not have mine. You are assuming that they would research possible hobby species? Now that is an example of a purely baseless assumption. Most invasive species to the U.S. didn't make it here due to the hobby. They made it here due to frieght shipments with no intentions of bringing wild animals. I highly suggest you look into invasive species and how they got here before claiming that it is all the hobby's fault, it usually isn't. Many [if not most] of the invasives came far before there was a real hobby. Again the hobby is not primarily at fault for screwing the ecosystem. We may at times make mistakes like the burms and monitors but that is a very isolated incident. USARK has taken a general census of the herp hobby showing that some regulation could be in order. When they decided to radio chip burms and other possibly/proven invasive reptiles in FL very few people stood in the way. I think HR669 shouldn't exist but if it must than cats SHOULD logically be on it. From an ecological stand point cats are a much bigger issue, how cares how long they've been around with people in this [Ecological.] aspect. What if we can't breed the feeders fast enough or they are found to be diseased? Why should we have to worry about native U.S. feeders any way? We shouldn't have to worry about quality of food for our pets. It isn't like 100% of automobile drivers are responsible and that is even more ecologically damaging. So by your way of thinking, should automobiles be illegalized?
TBH

 

[vvx]

Anyways, a more targeted response to #1, ask yourself if the hobby really needs new species that have not been researched at all yet. How many one-off animals have been brought into the country that were in fact sensitive species? How many species have been almost destroyed due to collection for people that feel the need to have every new thing in their collection? Think about those issues, then decide if yours and others like you's whims are more important than preserving healthy ecosystems.

It's a narrow view to think the US exclusively is responsible for destroying species. Unless we can apply the law to the entire world, all countries, I do not think the law will prevent this. All the other countries could continue on doing business as usual.

 

[What]

It's a narrow view to think the US exclusively is responsible for destroying species. Unless we can apply the law to the entire world, all countries, I do not think the law will prevent this. All the other countries could continue on doing business as usual.

Still, it will protect the species in our country. I do not expect the world to follow our example, nor do I think that it will slow down the trade much at all. I do however think that it will shrink the demand for such things by at least one third, possibly more.

 

[skips]

NOTE: I have not read through the entire thread, if this has been said already sorry, just saying my piece.

To all that oppose this bill... You do realize that all the animals you currently own are grandfathered, dont you? You do realize species that are approved will still be able to be shipped across state lines, dont you?

And most importantly, you all do realize that this bill will do more to protect our ecosystems from irresponsible keepers than anything else we could do? I mean really... There are a lot of things that should not be brought in as they have amazing potential to do damage. We need more regulations on importation of live animals...

All the arguments I have seen related to the bill are simply people being selfish and not wanting to face the reality that some of these things could cause immense problems should they be released in certain areas. I would rather give up keeping a few things than have another everglades like scenario. Please people, realize that just because it might take away a few of your possible pets it is still a good thing for the native environments and ecosystems.

Haha, I'm with you my friend. Do get me wrong, I'd love to go to "kick it" at the bar with any responsible hobbyist hear. But seriously, just working at a zoo for a couple of years will get you in the mood to propose a much stricter bill than this even (exaggeration, yes). People tell me they bought a spider, or a burmese pyton, or anything else for that matter and ask if we can take it. When we can't they almost invariable release it into the backyard. This bill bans potentially invasive species AND species which could carry parasites and other pathogens. Who hear can honestly tell me while keeping a straight face that would import a species that potentially carries a detrimentally infectious parasite, just so they can brag to there friends that they got a new scorp (scorp is just an example, don't try and crucify me citing that it's never happened with scorpions).

I just had a conversation on this board (its probably still up) where a person asked why chinese mantises were "encouraged" to be released into your garden. They're not! Idiot gardeners sell them to other idiot gardeners as pest control and then they establish. They're now the only type of mantis we have in our area! This bill protects earth from idiots. I'd be willing to give up the right to buy a T for that. I mean, for the love of christ, what do you need a demeril's ground boa for? there are like 3 of them left in the wild and I see them at f'ing pet supplies.

 

[skips]

Your answers left me dissatisfied and many were questionable. Therefore you have not gained my support.

Now that is an example of a purely baseless assumption. Most invasive species to the U.S. didn't make it here due to the hobby. They made it here due to frieght shipments with no intentions of bringing wild animals. I highly suggest you look into invasive species and how they got here before claiming that it is all the hobby's fault, it usually isn't.

I direct your attention to my previous post about chinese mantises. Happens frequently, though I agree a number were brought in on freights, I would say equal number were brought in as bio control. Actually, I've only heard of a few instances where a freight brought in an invasive. I've heard far more instances of humans bringing in things because they're a.) a more hardy species b.) they're pretty c.)bio control.


and the internet pissing contest continues....

 

[What]

Assumptions? Well yes, but based on thorough research of other nations that have similar laws and random bills passed by the H.R.

Care to link those sources?

I don't want just common species approved. I love my random Andros, Ts and snakes. Tokays have become invasive but I just couldn't not have mine. You are assuming that they would research possible hobby species? Now that is an example of a purely baseless assumption.

I never said they would research possible hobby species, though I do feel it is likely that they will approve entire genera rather than individual species(i.e. all Grammostola or all Pandinus) with possible exceptions for sensitive species. Again...look beyond you, just because you are responsible does not mean even the majority is.

Most invasive species to the U.S. didn't make it here due to the hobby. They made it here due to frieght shipments with no intentions of bringing wild animals. I highly suggest you look into invasive species and how they got here before claiming that it is all the hobby's fault, it usually isn't. Many [if not most] of the invasives came far before there was a real hobby.

Where did I say it was solely the hobby at fault? I do find it very funny that you are telling me to research invasive species...Invasive species are one of the areas I plan to focus on in relation to entomology/arachnology, I understand the vectors very well. I also understand that the bill is not just about animals being kept as pets, but also about animals being brought in accidentally in shipments. It opens up the ability of fining people who bring in pests/invasives for the government and as such gives motivation to shipping companies to be more careful with their products and controls.

Again the hobby is not primarily at fault for screwing the ecosystem. We may at times make mistakes like the burms and monitors but that is a very isolated incident. USARK has taken a general census of the herp hobby showing that some regulation could be in order. When they decided to radio chip burms and other possibly/proven invasive reptiles in FL very few people stood in the way.

Isolated incident? Like chameleons in 4+ localities in California and iguanas in more? Or like the mediterranean house geckos all over the southwest? Or the african clawed frog being found in almost every body of fresh water in California? Or chinese mystery snails that are in 27+ states? Or african land snails that have had to be eradicated 3-4 times in California, Arizona, and other states? This isnt even counting the things in Florida alone, nor some of the things that I some reason am not being able to remember right now.

I think HR669 shouldn't exist but if it must than cats SHOULD logically be on it. From an ecological stand point cats are a much bigger issue, how cares how long they've been around with people in this [Ecological.] aspect.

I agree, but cats are a separate issue as they are considered domesticated pets and could use a whole bill all to their lonesome...

What if we can't breed the feeders fast enough or they are found to be diseased? Why should we have to worry about native U.S. feeders any way? We shouldn't have to worry about quality of food for our pets.

If you cant breed the feeders fast enough then, you are doing something wrong. Many universities use all native roaches as food sources for their inverts. If a colony becomes infected with a parasite or something, then you do exactly the same thing you would do with your roaches now, dispose of them via freezing and start a new colony. As B. dubia pose next to no danger of introduction/ecological damage I have a feeling you wont.

It isn't like 100% of automobile drivers are responsible and that is even more ecologically damaging. So by your way of thinking, should automobiles be illegalized?
TBH

I do think that off-roading in motorized vehicles should be outlawed except in special circumstances and/or special areas. Though, with some of the things that could be introduced, I kinda doubt they are more damaging on a widespread level(also, take into account that the bill is to protect our agricultural interests as well).

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

To all that oppose this bill... You do realize that all the animals you currently own are grandfathered, dont you?

Feeder insects including the common house crickets would immediately become illegal. Naturalized species are treated as invasive wildlife. If someone were to breed an exotic tarantula each spiderling could land them in prison for up to five years. The cost of listing a single species for approval is not detailed but the requirements are such that it would likely cost tens of thousands at the minimum and since most tropicals might theoretically survive in southern Florida all nonnative tarantulas and scorpions would be illegal even if someone could afford to have them considered for the approved list. Anything not on the approved list is illegal.

 

[What]

Feeder insects including the common house crickets would immediately become illegal. Naturalized species are treated as invasive wildlife. If someone were to breed an exotic tarantula each spiderling could land them in prison for up to five years. The cost of listing a single species for approval is not detailed but the requirements are such that it would likely cost tens of thousands at the minimum and since most tropicals might theoretically survive in southern Florida all nonnative tarantulas and scorpions would be illegal even if someone could afford to have them considered for the approved list. Anything not on the approved list is illegal.

And stating the obvious helps how? I dont even want to touch your rash overstatement on the penalties for breeding a T... Yes, the maximum penalty is around 5 years and a fine, how often do you really think they would do that? Have you in your encounters with the USDA ever had anything more than the offending animal(s) confiscated? In case you missed it, the bill states that the preliminary list will include already widespread species(most everything in the hobby, especially crickets and roaches) and things that are already here and do not cause harm or pose a risk.

You apparently haven't read the bill. Introduced species are not considered native (all our feeders including crickets would be illegal). Anything not on the approved list is illegal and can result in a sentence of up to five years per animal (Lacey Act). There is no explanation of what paperwork you'd have to produce to prove that your animals were purchased prior to the law. Few hobbyists have adequate documentation.

Uhh, you miss this whole section I mentioned before? All the animals people are currently keeping can continue to be kept. As for the cricket issue, the fact that they have been introduced and are continuing to be released and not spreading is evidence enough that they are not a significant threat. Can you give me any reason why they would be placed on the unapproved list? Or even a reason why switching the industry over to Gryllus sp. is a bad thing?

Also, as for documentation, any "responsible" keeper should have documentation, either timestamped photos or written records. I know I have collection records for everything that is non-transient(ie. being kept for more than just pinning or photos) in my collection that is not from another country, and even for those things I have the date when I received the animal in an excel log(and if it has died, its date of death). And, if you look at the bill, it clearly says that they must notify the public exactly what is on each list before they are enacted, so anyone needing to get reference material will have plenty of notice(sixty days is far more time than needed).

 

[MrRogers]

Internet petitions don't actually accomplish anything. All they do is let people feel like they've "done their part" without actually having to put forth the effort of writing real letters or making phone calls...which, again, is DANGEROUS to any movement, because internet petitions are pretty much worthless and so people haven't really done anything at all, in the end.

I'm a canadian but I'm taking strong interest in this bill because it will no doubt have an impact on imports here as well. I imagine that lots of suppliers sell to canadian stores and the trades are linked together across the boarder.

In regards to petitions Mushroom Spore is correct in that signing an internet petition will do almost no good. At best it can show public interest but even then it's credibility is limited because they are only electronic signatures, which are as genuine as a "Thank you" from a trash bin at Mcdonalds.

Certian petitions do serve a purpose, and I know this from my chariety work on behalf of The World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA). They use online petitions as support for pushing legislation, however signatures require contact information which translates in us making contact with signers requesting financial support, (sorry but it takes more then a good heart and two seconds of being online to save animals worldwide).

Generally, in order to make a change individuals better be prepared to hand out real support in the form of a written letter or financial support in order to make an impact. Either way it takes resources like time and money to translate into action. Goodwill, hopes and dreams only make us feel aware and concerned.

Again, I hope for everyone's sake that this bill does not go through to the full extent, and that there will be a better way to preserve the richness of keeping these beautiful animals responsibly without damaging our environment or needlessly punishing hard working breeders, shopowners, suppliers and transporters working in the pet trade. Being a canadian citizen, I have limits but I will do what I can from my current position to help in anyway possible.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

In case you missed it, the bill states that the preliminary list will include already widespread species (most everything in the hobby, especially crickets and roaches) and things that are already here and do not cause harm or pose a risk.

They aren't on the preliminary list so far and it's highly unlikely a documented house pest (house cricket) would make it to the approved list. Native Gryllus are already illegal to ship over state lines under ag regulations. Crickets would then all be illegal.

You have no clue what the documentation requirements will be. We're talking about up to five years in prison per animal so the documentation is going to have to be better than a home photo or pet shop receipt that says "misc." or "reptiles" (many stores have tarantulas and scorpions in the reptile section and the receipt simply says reptiles).

 

[What]

They aren't on the preliminary list so far and it's highly unlikely a documented house pest (house cricket) would make it to the approved list. Native Gryllus are already illegal to ship over state lines under ag regulations. Crickets would then all be illegal.

And you have access to this preliminary list? Care to share?
Also, if the native Gryllus sp. are illegal to ship state to state, when why wouldnt the A. domestica be illegal as well?

You have no clue what the documentation requirements will be. We're talking about up to five years in prison per animal so the documentation is going to have to be better than a home photo or pet shop receipt that says "misc." or "reptiles" (many stores have tarantulas and scorpions in the reptile section and the receipt simply says reptiles).

I notice you skipped over my question relating to this, so I will take it that you have never heard of *anyone* actually getting the maximum penalty for keeping something illegal(Importing CITES protected animals maybe, some guy with Brachys?). But even then, until we know what the requirements are why is there any reason to suspect that they will be anything other than photos showing prior ownership?(Even then, they would have to find proof saying that you did not own the animal in question before the law, which is a far more difficult task. Especially when you did in fact own the animal before the law.)

 

[skips]

They aren't on the preliminary list so far and it's highly unlikely a documented house pest (house cricket) would make it to the approved list. Native Gryllus are already illegal to ship over state lines under ag regulations. Crickets would then all be illegal.

You have no clue what the documentation requirements will be. We're talking about up to five years in prison per animal so the documentation is going to have to be better than a home photo or pet shop receipt that says "misc." or "reptiles" (many stores have tarantulas and scorpions in the reptile section and the receipt simply says reptiles).

Lets not turn this rational conversation into an internet argument. We're not starwars nerds. In the first place I don't believe this bill has a chance of passing due to economic implications in an already down economy and the fact that this is america. Nothing passes unless it's popular. Even if it does pass it can't possibly have the same language as it does now. No one would vote for it. Penalties will not be that steep. Then, even if they are even close to that they will not be enforced to the extent you described. We seem to be arguing like this resolution has a good chance, and when it does then we're all going to be thrown in jail.

 

[arachnocat]

Email from USARK:


VICTORY over HR669!!!

WE DID IT FOLKS!!!! Victory over HR669! You can thank yourselves and the Reptile Nation, for a hard fought Victory! Our nearly 50,000 grassroots letters and 1,000s of phone calls to the offices of the subcommittee members clearly prevailed at today's Insular Affairs Subcommittee hearing on HR 669. HR 669 in it's current form is finished. For anything to go forward it MUST be re-written from the ground up....and USARK will have a seat at the table along with other stake holders.

Delegate Faleomavega from Samoa said, "The letter and phone campaign hit the subcommittee like a BUZZ SAW". Harry Burroughs, of the subcommittee staff said, "I haven't seen a letter writing campaign like this in 30 years! You should be proud of yourselves." Take heart in the fact that the Reptile Nation stopped HR669 in it's tracks!!

We also need to thank Congressman Henry Brown, SC for helping us to focus our fight on the Subcommittee as opposed to the full House of Representatives. He is the one who instructed us to write real letters to be truly effective. He said emails are fine if that is all you can manage, but they can be filtered and deleted. There is no denying the weight of thousands of paper letters from American citizens. The Reptile Nation was responsible for 49,229 letters delivered to the Subcommittee in less than two weeks. Congressman Brown's staff made sure they all got in the door. 38,000 of those letters will be entered into the permanent record. Thank you my friends!

Credit should also be given to Bill Martin, a witness who testified at the hearing. He is the President of Blue Ridge Aquatics, a large multi-state Tilapia farming operation. They farm Tilapia as a food fish. He had some serious problems with the bill and the ear of much of the committee. His plain talk of how this bill would destroy hundreds of families hit home. What they do and the impact this bill would have on them parallels the plight of the Reptile Nation.

Senior Democrat staff from the House Committee on Natural Resources advised Subcommittee Chair Madeleine Bordallo that if she wants something to go forward she will have to go back to square one and draft a new bill. Then have another subcommittee hearing. When and if she does, USARK will be there to represent the interests of the Reptile Nation!! They probably will try, and that will be our challenge for another day. But Today VICTORY is SWEET!...... Celebrate today and rest, because tomorrow we must get ready to fight again.

Thank you Reptile Nation! Thank you Tom Wolfe. Thank you everyone who did their part.

Stay tuned... This fight has only begun!

USARK

A note from Tom Wolfe:

"The good news is, USARK engineered a significant victory which caught the attention of the entire membership of the Subcommittee and their staffs.

The bad news is this is just the first step in the process. Members of the Reptile Nation should be jubilant with this victory. However, our success should be measured, because the proponents of HR 669 will be back soon with another version of the same legislation. They will not rest, so we must not rest either.

Take satisfaction in a job well done and a victory well deserved, but know we all must rise up again to fight on because the battle has just begun!"

 

[RoachGirlRen]

Just a note - many people email and call their representatives about these matters to tell them what to do, but don't follow up after voting occurs. This is an important step as it either thanks your rep for good work or reminds him/her what you might be thinking come elections. Once you find our how your rep voted, call to voice either your thanks for taking your concerns into account, or your displeasure about how they voted.

 

[bliss]

w00t!

Way to go!