Versicolor sling dying

[Dry Desert]

Do you recall the temperature range he raised it to? Or perhaps where you did the reading?

Asking for a friend.

I'm pretty sure the article was by " boina lady of the mites"
on Aracnoboards 2017/18.

Regards.

 

[SpookySpooder]

Those vials are poor. You can't see into them, a bad idea IMO. Just get some Thornton vials, and drill some holes.

You mentioned this quote talking about tinted pill vials years ago.

Question 1: Do you still believe the Thornton vials are adequate enclosures or has something changed that belief?

I ask because I've coincidentally been using the same vials this whole time, and have seen several comments about how they're poor enclosures because they don't ventilate well.

I didn't have any problems before this but I'm updating how I do mine a bit.

I drill a hole at the bottom for drainage (and have never needed it because it never gets that soaked) a few holes at the top for a vent, and then drill holes evenly spaced all along the sides.

I'm thinking about adding another ring of vents right in the middle of the vial as well, because I'm now paranoid this isn't good enough.

Question 2: am I making death traps?

That ends my inquiry.

UPDATE:
It is now about 7-8 days since this sling molted and symptoms showed themselves.

The temperature has been 84°F for the last few days, and that seems to have helped the sling. (Or maybe not IDK)

Humidity inside the enclosure has fallen from 100%, I don't know exact numbers but it is no longer super humid and condensing. It is not dry either. I stopped misting as that didn't do anything but keep raising the humidity. I'd say it's about 70-80% because I've had the cap off for days.

The sling is no longer twitching like mad. It has returned to laying motionless curled up and I suspect the only thing keeping it alive at this point is the forced hydration. It will drink maybe two small droplets a day and no more. Any excess water drops are simply held near its fangs with its pedipalps. The abdomen visibly swells during forced hydration and then shrinks overnight. I would say there is about a 0.3 mm difference in abdoment size during the swelling/shrinking cycle.

It pooped so at least I can rule out impaction.

I am honestly shocked that it's still alive with how little life it has in it.

I haven't found the referenced thread so I'm unsure how high to safely raise the temperature. So far I can confirm a high of 29°C/84°F from World of Spiders and some European keeper videos.

I went digging through every post in which Our Lady of the Mites, Boina, whispered the word "versicolor." After reading pages of results (50+ threads) I could not find the discussion referenced so I could not pull on the temperature string. In fact, the only thread that contained Boina, Germans, Versicolor, and temperature was this one in which she criticizes their higher humidity and temperature averages.

1. No. That's it - no.

Unless you want to breed, then you may consider a decrease in temp for a few species.

2. Do NOT use any special heating for your tarantula. Heat mats and especially heat lamps (I know those are used everywhere in Germany) come with more dangers than they could ever help. Tarantulas are drawn to heat and it increases their metabolism - and dessicates them. If you use heat you need to keep them more moist, and you know what else breeds perfectly well in warm, humid conditions? All kinds of bacteria.... Add to it that the tarantula is more in danger of drying out when kept hot all these temperatures the Germans love and can't be talked out of are dangerous and unneccessary. Many Germans generally keep their tarantulas too hot and too moist. 21°C is just perfect and you can keep both of your species completely dry, although your genic may like a moist corner. Temperatures in my house may drop down to 18°C at night and everyone is fine, even the tropical species. And forget everything you've ever heard about humidity - complete, utter, dangerous nonsense.

I currently have my sling at 29°C, with no sure confirmation as to what the unsafe high temperature could be. Don't wanna accidentally cook it.

I observed some patterns not just within her experiences but also with several members who posted in these threads. Notably that wet Avics with insufficient ventilation were the primary cause of these death threads during this time period.

Forget about the humidity myth. I don't know how many threads on this forum have tried to dispel the myth that humidity is important for Avics. Water is. Humidity isn't. My C. versicolor and all the Ybyrapora slings are kept mostly dry with a water dish and are doing well. Slightly - just slightly - moist substrate won't hurt, but forget about humidity. If your enclosure gets so wet and the air so stagnant that you even have the possibility of getting mold there's a high possibility you also have a dying spider.

Many examples of her advising others on this until ultimately this post below.

Well, I've done plenty of research and I consider myself pretty experienced but I've still managed to kill all three true Avics I had (huriana, minatrix, avicularia), huriana and minatrix after several years, but still before their natural life span was over. To this day I've no clue as to why. I may have possibly kept them too dry, as in dry with a water dish, but then I'm living in an extremely wet climate (marshlands) and I'm therefore keeping all my spiders dryer than usually recommended. Hell, I'm even keeping my Asian arboreals mostly dry and everyone is doing well and has been doing well for years. Only my Avics died, and believe me, I'm not trying again. So no, I don't think Avics are easy, even with plenty of homework and knowledge. Just as a note: my C. versicolor is perfectly fine but one of my two adult Y. versicolor is not looking too good (not eating although she should). I've started spraying water on her web once a week a while ago (as in: several month ago), but it doesn't seem to help. If anyone has any smart ideas I'm all ears, like @The Grym Reaper or @viper69 ?

Another pattern I noticed is that several members had been advocates for a well ventilated enclosure with damp substrate and water dishes from the 2016-2018 period and still have those Avics to this day.

Several members who kept them dry with occasional dishes had mixed results, with some surviving and some dying.

Boina herself kept several different arboreal/Avic species dry with mixed results.

This leads me to one member in particular I would like to call on.

If you decide to try again then house in a 32oz deli cup set up like below, keep 1/4 - 1/3 of the substrate damp*, and provide a water dish.

View attachment 399472

*Everyone will scream at you "keep them dry" until they're blue in the face but I've never lost an Avic sling keeping them slightly moist whereas 66% of the ones I've kept dry have either flat out dropped dead or suffered fatal moult complications, keeping them too dry is just as bad as keeping them too moist.

Two questions.

1. Have you updated this husbandry method in any way since that post?
2. Are the Avics you've kept using this method still kicking?

I'm curious as to how mixed or consistent your results have been with your Avics.

 

[SpookySpooder]

UPDATE: I am bumping this thread because I can no longer edit it and it didn't seem necessary to make a new one.

After a grueling and tedious endeavor with this sling, it has emerged from an overnight molt and has claimed the title of 'Survivor'.

This happened sometime between Wednesday night and Thursday morning. I checked on this sling the night of the 1st and it was sitting in its normal spot on the sub so I thought nothing of it. When I checked the morning of the 2nd, it looked totally lifeless on its side so I reached for the vial and it was hiding under the lid!


It ran around with such renewed vigor, I felt a rush of genuine excitement. I had accepted that it had finally died, so it caught me completely off guard.


Was an hour late to work just celebrating on the floor.

Don't tell it I almost euthanized it a dozen times.

*yes I went to work*

~10 hours later
It's back to its old ways!



It just kept going around the rim for an hour. Maybe it was stretching its legs after being confined for a month?

cheeky caribena

youtube.com

Last night before bed I had to resist those beady pining tarantula eyes... no crickets for you just yet!

I'm thinking about naming it Beyoncé.

This morning--still holding off on feeding this sling though it's all I want to do.


It has started to rebuild a web. Can I take this as a sign I can add stuff back in and feed it later?

I'm still ecstatic a day later, lol.

So I obviously want to thank the community who provided the information I wanted to help me find the information I needed. Really appreciate what has been built here.

I ran through a lot of threads, maybe a hundred. There was a lot that was useful to me and a lot that was contradictory, so to me it was hard to figure out a baseline.

I settled on a cluster of members who appeared to have highly successful histories with keeping these types of spiders for at least a decade.

One particular thread that helped me was posted by boina, the reference that led me there was provided by @Dry Desert

Treatment for DKS

DKS - dyskinetic syndrome - is a catch all term used to describe jerky, uncoordinated and often hyperkinetic movement in spiders. A cause has not been determined yet, but poisoning through pesticides can lead to these symptoms as well as a bacterial infection. More often than not the affected...

arachnoboards.com

On a lucky guess I inferred my sling wanted more heat, and gave it that by raising the temperature 1 degree a day until it was 86°F before I stumbled upon that thread. I was hesitant to raise my heat to what I thought as unsafe levels (90-95°F) but after seeing that I thought it was worth the risk and kept the sling at 90°F.

Notable changes I made to the enclosure was the removal of any items and doubled the amount of ventilation, to the point where the enclosure will dry out very quickly.

I also maintained humidity at what is commonly accepted as unsafe levels for this species. It was kept at a RH of 90-100%, with water regularly condensing on the walls and evaporating due to ventilation.

I stopped misting a long time ago, and directly added water using a blunt tip syringe.

At first I kept taking it out to check on it, and NMT mentioned that might be causing it to throw out false signs. I took it out one last time because I thought it was dead and unresponsive, and it poop cannoned my palm, so I took this as a clear sign that this was improper treatment and left it in the enclosure.

To date I have been unable to figure out what was wrong with my sling. I suspect it sustained some sort of damage from the prior molt (in September) and could not retain water. I could not physically identify any damage. No other T's have shown any sort of issues like this.

It would go from being hydrated and sitting still to dehydrated and curled up very quickly over the course of a day or two. I checked on it twice a day, approximately 10-12 hours apart. Some times it would take a whole day for it to curl up (~16 hours) sometimes it would take only a night or work shift. (~10 hours)

When it couldn't resist anymore, I would flip it and apply water directly to the chaelicerae. When it could barely resist, I would push it facefirst into the water dish and leave for work.

I would always find it in another position in a better condition after waterboarding it.

This continued for about 6 weeks, and now we are here.

Notable changes I've made to my husbandry since:

- I have returned to a more drastic wet/dry cycle with my Avics, much like my plants I will allow them to dry a bit more before moistening their substrate again.

- I facilitated this quicker cycle by adding more ventilation.

- I place the water dish where I suspect the individual will most likely encounter it. Based on observations of their behavior and enclosure.

I still mist (not for humidity) but to provide extra opportunities to drink, as now I'm super paranoid, even moreso than when I got my T. seladonia.

What a journey it has been!

 

[NMTs]

UPDATE: I am bumping this thread because I can no longer edit it and it didn't seem necessary to make a new one.

After a grueling and tedious endeavor with this sling, it has emerged from an overnight molt and has claimed the title of 'Survivor'.

This happened sometime between Wednesday night and Thursday morning. I checked on this sling the night of the 1st and it was sitting in its normal spot on the sub so I thought nothing of it. When I checked the morning of the 2nd, it looked totally lifeless on its side so I reached for the vial and it was hiding under the lid!
View attachment 459613

It ran around with such renewed vigor, I felt a rush of genuine excitement. I had accepted that it had finally died, so it caught me completely off guard.
View attachment 459612

Was an hour late to work just celebrating on the floor.
View attachment 459614
Don't tell it I almost euthanized it a dozen times.

*yes I went to work*

~10 hours later
It's back to its old ways!
View attachment 459616
View attachment 459615
View attachment 459617
It just kept going around the rim for an hour. Maybe it was stretching its legs after being confined for a month?

cheeky caribena

youtube.com

Last night before bed I had to resist those beady pining tarantula eyes... no crickets for you just yet!
View attachment 459619

This morning--still holding off on feeding this sling though it's all I want to do.
View attachment 459621
View attachment 459622
It has started to rebuild a web. Can I take this as a sign I can add stuff back in and feed it later?

I'm still ecstatic a day later, lol.

That's great! Yep, put some leaves and a little chunk of cork in there and it should web up a little hideout. Just keep an eye on it's fangs - if they look black you can feed it. Little slings like this often harden enough to feed within 24-48 hours. It'll be really interesting to see how it responds to prey after having not eaten for so long. Good job caring for it that whole time!

 

[S8tan]

That's great! Yep, put some leaves and a little chunk of cork in there and it should web up a little hideout. Just keep an eye on it's fangs - if they look black you can feed it. Little slings like this often harden enough to feed within 24-48 hours. It'll be really interesting to see how it responds to prey after having not eaten for so long. Good job caring for it that whole time!

and if you still arent sure just squash cokroach ( or other feeder) and leave it overnight if not eaten remove it

 

[Mike Withrow]

That's some sweet news. I kinda needed that tonight myself. Congratulations.

 

[IntermittentSygnal]

Many congrats! Great job and thank you for posting everything. It will help others if they are in this predicament in the future.

 

[Dry Desert]

UPDATE: I am bumping this thread because I can no longer edit it and it didn't seem necessary to make a new one.

After a grueling and tedious endeavor with this sling, it has emerged from an overnight molt and has claimed the title of 'Survivor'.

This happened sometime between Wednesday night and Thursday morning. I checked on this sling the night of the 1st and it was sitting in its normal spot on the sub so I thought nothing of it. When I checked the morning of the 2nd, it looked totally lifeless on its side so I reached for the vial and it was hiding under the lid!
View attachment 459613

It ran around with such renewed vigor, I felt a rush of genuine excitement. I had accepted that it had finally died, so it caught me completely off guard.
View attachment 459612

Was an hour late to work just celebrating on the floor.
View attachment 459614
Don't tell it I almost euthanized it a dozen times.

*yes I went to work*

~10 hours later
It's back to its old ways!
View attachment 459616
View attachment 459624
View attachment 459617
It just kept going around the rim for an hour. Maybe it was stretching its legs after being confined for a month?

cheeky caribena

youtube.com

Last night before bed I had to resist those beady pining tarantula eyes... no crickets for you just yet!
View attachment 459619
I'm thinking about naming it Beyoncé.

This morning--still holding off on feeding this sling though it's all I want to do.
View attachment 459621
View attachment 459622
It has started to rebuild a web. Can I take this as a sign I can add stuff back in and feed it later?

I'm still ecstatic a day later, lol.

So I obviously want to thank the community who provided the information I wanted to help me find the information I needed. Really appreciate what has been built here.

I ran through a lot of threads, maybe a hundred. There was a lot that was useful to me and a lot that was contradictory, so to me it was hard to figure out a baseline.

I settled on a cluster of members who appeared to have highly successful histories with keeping these types of spiders for at least a decade.

One particular thread that helped me was posted by boina, the reference that led me there was provided by @Dry Desert

Treatment for DKS

DKS - dyskinetic syndrome - is a catch all term used to describe jerky, uncoordinated and often hyperkinetic movement in spiders. A cause has not been determined yet, but poisoning through pesticides can lead to these symptoms as well as a bacterial infection. More often than not the affected...

arachnoboards.com

On a lucky guess I inferred my sling wanted more heat, and gave it that by raising the temperature 1 degree a day until it was 86°F before I stumbled upon that thread. I was hesitant to raise my heat to what I thought as unsafe levels (90-95°F) but after seeing that I thought it was worth the risk and kept the sling at 90°F.

Notable changes I made to the enclosure was the removal of any items and doubled the amount of ventilation, to the point where the enclosure will dry out very quickly.

I also maintained humidity at what is commonly accepted as unsafe levels for this species. It was kept at a RH of 90-100%, with water regularly condensing on the walls and evaporating due to ventilation.

I stopped misting a long time ago, and directly added water using a blunt tip syringe.

At first I kept taking it out to check on it, and NMT mentioned that might be causing it to throw out false signs. I took it out one last time because I thought it was dead and unresponsive, and it poop cannoned my palm, so I took this as a clear sign that this was improper treatment and left it in the enclosure.

To date I have been unable to figure out what was wrong with my sling. I suspect it sustained some sort of damage from the prior molt (in September) and could not retain water. I could not physically identify any damage. No other T's have shown any sort of issues like this.

It would go from being hydrated and sitting still to dehydrated and curled up very quickly over the course of a day or two. I checked on it twice a day, approximately 10-12 hours apart. Some times it would take a whole day for it to curl up (~16 hours) sometimes it would take only a night or work shift. (~10 hours)

When it couldn't resist anymore, I would flip it and apply water directly to the chaelicerae. When it could barely resist, I would push it facefirst into the water dish and leave for work.

I would always find it in another position in a better condition after waterboarding it.

This continued for about 6 weeks, and now we are here.

Notable changes I've made to my husbandry since:

- I have returned to a more drastic wet/dry cycle with my Avics, much like my plants I will allow them to dry a bit more before moistening their substrate again.

- I facilitated this quicker cycle by adding more ventilation.

- I place the water dish where I suspect the individual will most likely encounter it. Based on observations of their behavior and enclosure.

I still mist (not for humidity) but to provide extra opportunities to drink, as now I'm super paranoid, even moreso than when I got my T. seladonia.

What a journey it has been!

Well done you, hanging in there all this time has provided a great outcome.

Good detailed account of the journey that should certainly help others.
Again, well done.

 

[SpookySpooder]

@NMTs

It was ready. It came out to the top and just waited.

With this feeding, I can confidently say that this matter has been concluded.

Here is a sacmate of this versicolor, wondering why it doesn't get this kind of attention or spotlight.

 

[SpookySpooder]

Here is a bonus post since I hit the image limit. Decided I don't really like the fake plants in small vials. So here are the new digs.

Cut a notch in the bark at a slant to friction fit a water dish.


Two drops of hot glue to reinforce it.



Good enough.


Mock up in another vial


Can't do this without tearing the web.


So I tore the web.


Filled up with water,


and that's it!


Thanks to everybody following this journey, and for all the assistance and positive encouragement. This sling has a new lease on life because of the community.

To those in the future with this problem: Good luck and don't give up!

I nearly "surrendered to fate" a dozen times, and I'm happy I didn't!

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I was about to say from reading the earlier post this could be the first zombie tarantula in the U.S.

Doesn't appear that though

 

[NMTs]

I was about to say from reading the earlier post this could be the first zombie tarantula in the U.S.

Doesn't appear that though

I might have a claim on that, but I need to see if it molts out successfully before I tell the full story...

 

[SpookySpooder]

I was about to say from reading the earlier post this could be the first zombie tarantula in the U.S.

Doesn't appear that though

???

I might have a claim on that, but I need to see if it molts out successfully before I tell the full story...

Not sure I follow. What do you guys mean you have a zombie T? :O

NGL, I did obtain a versicolor to replace this one. Now it's an awkward situation because this one didn't die and I have 3.

Like my guy says, "you can never have too many Tarantulas"

Haven't gotten around to rehousing it yet.

 

[NMTs]

???


Not sure I follow. What do you guys mean you have a zombie T? :O

NGL, I did obtain a versicolor to replace this one. Now it's an awkward situation because this one didn't die and I have 3.

Like my guy says, "you can never have too many Tarantulas"

Haven't gotten around to rehousing it yet.
View attachment 459740

3 is the magic for any species - unless you're very unlucky, it all but assures you'll end up with at least 1 female... And your luck is looking pretty good right now!

As for the zombie spider, in my case at least, I mean one that was quite certainly dead coming back to life... Still need to see how things play out before divulging anything else.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

???


Not sure I follow. What do you guys mean you have a zombie T? :O

NGL, I did obtain a versicolor to replace this one. Now it's an awkward situation because this one didn't die and I have 3.

Like my guy says, "you can never have too many Tarantulas"

Haven't gotten around to rehousing it yet.
View attachment 459740

It's a topic that has had me worried for years. With ancient viruses being pulled from the perma frost for study.

These ancient viruses frozen for incredible length of times are still infectious. They have been nicknamed Zombie viruses.

That is what I was referencing but not in a serious way.

Zombie virus revitalized from permafrost: Facts and fiction - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[SpookySpooder]

3 is the magic for any species - unless you're very unlucky, it all but assures you'll end up with at least 1 female... And your luck is looking pretty good right now!

As for the zombie spider, in my case at least, I mean one that was quite certainly dead coming back to life... Still need to see how things play out before divulging anything else.

You're not the one who put his Avicularia avic in the freezer for a couple years were you?

It's a topic that has had me worried for years. With ancient viruses being pulled from the perma frost for study.

Their is such a virus that has been nicknamed the Zombie virus.

That is what I was referencing but not in a serious way.

Zombie virus revitalized from permafrost: Facts and fiction - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I had completely overlooked that pathogens would also be thawing out.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

You're not the one who put his Avicularia avic in the freezer for a couple years were you?


I had completely overlooked that pathogens would also be thawing out.

On a positive note I'm happy to hear your versicolor is doing good.