Unsexed Juvies, Good idea or not?

[Beary Strange]

So I've been wondering this for a while. Is it really a good idea to buy unsexed juveniles? I ask because I quite often see Ts around 2" give or take, sometimes up to 3" where they're being sold as unsexed but it seems to me they could most certainly be sexed at that point...I can't help but wonder if this is just a way to pawn off young males on unsuspecting new hobbyists. :/ So have any of you more experienced keepers bought unsexed juvies; how'd that turn out?

Also, totally not on the same topic but since I'm making this thread might as well ask: Is theraphosa ebony a legit species? I've seen one on youtube and there is a, reputable so far as I'm aware, dealer selling them but...I can't find any info on them. I'd love a big black T, but are they real or is this just a weird descriptor for a T.blondi?

 

[Hobo]

I always assume anything larger than 2" being sold as unsexed is male.

There is no such species as Theraphosa ebony.
If I has to guess, it might just be a Theraphosa stirmi, which used to go by Theraphosa sp. burgundy.
Without a picture, though, there's no way to know for sure.

 

[Beary Strange]

I always assume anything larger than 2" being sold as unsexed is male.

There is no such species as Theraphosa ebony.
If I has to guess, it might just be a Theraphosa stirmi, which used to go by Theraphosa sp. burgundy.
Without a picture, though, there's no way to know for sure.

Good to know. Thank you Hobo. ^^

 

[Poec54]

it seems to me they could most certainly be sexed at that point...I can't help but wonder if this is just a way to pawn off young males on unsuspecting new hobbyists.

1) Few people sex by molts, and many can't accurately vent sex either. Some species are harder to sex than others when they're juveniles. It's also common that 'sexed' T's turn out to be the opposite sex. Dealers and breeders like to move their inventory, which means selling them small. They'll have hundreds or thousands of young spiders. It's not practical to sex them all. There's a lot of time and labor in that, and labor costs money. Nor is it practical to raise thousands of spiders to a juvenile size.

2) Without males, there's no slings, and no hobby. 'Pawning off males on unsuspecting new hobbyists' is really a poor way to describe that. Males are not the scourge of the hobby as you seem to believe. Have you seen the Invertsonals and how many people are looking, and begging, for mature males? The savvy people in this hobby are breeding their spiders, and can build a collection that way with little cash outlay, or if they don't wnat to expand, they can recoup the costs of crickets, cages, etc. They need a new crop of male slings every year.

3) If you want the best prices, you'll buy several slings of the same species. If you want sexed female juveniles, you'll usually pay a lot more. I always try to get 5 or 10+ slings of a species at a time. That way I'm assured of getting some females, and don't have to rely on someone else's guess as to sexes.

 

[Beary Strange]

1) Few people sex by molts, and many can't accurately vent sex either. Some species are harder to sex than others when they're juveniles. It's also common that 'sexed' T's turn out to be the opposite sex. Dealers and breeders like to move their inventory, which means selling them small. They'll have hundreds or thousands of young spiders. It's not practical to sex them all. There's a lot of time and labor in that, and labor costs money. Nor is it practical to raise thousands of spiders to a juvenile size.

2) Without males, there's no slings, and no hobby. 'Pawning off males on unsuspecting new hobbyists' is really a poor way to describe that. Males are not the scourge of the hobby as you seem to believe. Have you seen the Invertsonals and how many people are looking, and begging, for mature males? The savvy people in this hobby are breeding their spiders, and can build a collection that way with little cash outlay, or if they don't wnat to expand, they can recoup the costs of crickets, cages, etc. They need a new crop of male slings every year.

3) If you want the best prices, you'll buy several slings of the same species. If you want sexed female juveniles, you'll usually pay a lot more. I always try to get 5 or 10+ slings of a species at a time. That way I'm assured of getting some females, and don't have to rely on someone else's guess as to sexes.

I certainly don't think they're a scourge. I'm not even worried about ending up with a male by pure happenstance; I buy slings all the time, knowing full well that I could end up with anything. But ending up with one and being sold one intentionally are a bit different. That said, you do make a good point. It would make a lot more sense to sell it as what it is to those needing them. May I ask how your experiences with buying unsexed juvies have been, if you have?

 

[Poec54]

May I ask how your experiences with buying unsexed juvies have been?

I've gotten as many females as males when acquiring unsexed juveniles. Most people can't sex by molt or vent, so I don't think there's any conspiracy in 'dumping' males on people. Your first post in this thread struck me as very negative. I breed, buy, sell, and trade a lot and my experiences are positive. This is a great hobby with a lot of good people and a seemingly unending stream of fascinating animals.

 

[Arachtion]

9/10 "unsexed" juveniles I have bought PRIVATELY (ie forums etc) and from TARANTULA SPECIFIC WEBSITES have been male, however petshops my results have been comparable (if anything most I have bought from petshops have been female but I think that's just luck or my choice) I think a a lot of petshops know very little about spiders you really are getting an unsexed, this is like Poec says, not to say they are all male and everybody is a crook ad that you shouldn't buy unsexed juveniles from websites, my personal experience though has taught me I won't be doing it anymore as they strangely seem to all be male, but now if I really don't want it to be male, I either save up and shell out for a sexed female or buy 3 slings, then more often than not you end up with at least 1 female, it just seems strange to me that most species can be sexed at (and sometimes before) around the 2" mark (for those without microscopes etc) yet somebody hasn't bothered to do this? I can understand in communal species you may have a thriving colony you want to thin out a little, in this case they may be unsexed (just my 2cents) either way, even if you get a male, you can always send them out on a breeding loan, that way you get a bunch of slings and don't really have to do anything to earn them! Or sell/trade him for slings (or females if he is of a valuable species)

 

[JadeWilliamson]

I respect Poec's experience and thoughts on the matter, but I feel more the way Hobo does.

I always assume anything larger than 2" being sold as unsexed is male.

 

[vespers]

Also, totally not on the same topic but since I'm making this thread might as well ask: Is theraphosa ebony a legit species? I've seen one on youtube and there is a, reputable so far as I'm aware, dealer selling them but...I can't find any info on them. I'd love a big black T, but are they real or is this just a weird descriptor for a T.blondi?

Its not Theraphosa! You're referencing the "Theraphosidae sp. Ebony" that a certain dealer is selling...which basically translates to "black tarantula, who knows what the hell it is".

Theraphosa - Genus (the genus of South American tarantulas we usually consider "Goliath Birdeaters": blondi, stirmi, apophysis)

Theraphosidae - Family (the tarantula family as a whole)

Huge difference.

 

[Poec54]

If you're breeding, which a lot more people should, you find yourself looking for mature males every year, and certainly aren't disappointed when they pop up in unsexed spiders of yours.

When I want females, I:
1) buy them sexed, and once I have those, when I get slings or unsexed juveniles, I'm not disapponted in either sex.
2) get 5-10+ slings and raise them up. If you end up with more of a species than you want, they can be sold for a good profit or traded for something else. If they're extra males, they can be sent on breeding loans. You have something of value to someone. When you produce, instead of just consume, doors open.

I think the way most people approach the hobby is short-sighted, and it often ends up costing them much more because they're passing up opportunities by not breeding, or have no coherent plans in their random pairings.

You can make this hobby pay for itself. A key part of it is getting over the 'male phobia.'

 

[Formerphobe]

While I'm sure some people sell juvenile males as 'unsexed' just to move them along, for many, they are just that - unsexed. IMO, ventral sexing is often hit or miss, especially in juveniles, though some are more adept at it than others. In some species (i.e. - A. geniculata, N. chromatus, many of the Brachys, and others) the males have prominent accessory sex organs which make them appear female via molt, hence the juvenile 'females' that molt into mature males.

I've sold juveniles as:
unsexed,
probably male,
maybe female, etc
I try to follow the Golden Rule with my spider transactions. I've bitten myself in the butt by selling a 'probable male' or unsexed tarantula that turned out to be female. And been pleasantly surprised when the reverse occurs. Half the fun of buying slings/juvies is in the raising of them.

Like Poec, and many others, when I buy slings, I generally try to buy multiples and hope at least one turns out to be female. This doesn't always happen. I had 3 of 3 H. liv slings turn out male; 4 of 5 B. emilia slings were male, etc. And I've purchased or been gifted singleton slings or juvies that were female. No rhyme nor reason.

Nothing wrong with raising a male spider that you can sell or trade to someone who needs it. If you want a guaranteed female, expect a higher price tag.

 

[Jones0911]

When I first got into tarantulas years ago I tried my best to stay away from males (by hoping I didn't get any never had a real method lol).

However this was before I knew it was, possible to buy sexed females I used to think all females were for breeding only until I read more, researched etc.

Now I just do what Poec says and I buy three slings to hopefully get a female if I need one. If I want to make sure I get a female I usually just bite the bullet and get it without saving up.

Currently, in the far future I'm trying to breed my female H MAC ( with one of three unsexed H Mac juveniles ).

I have an AF H. Incei (that I'll be breeding to a freebie, ill be getting soon so hopefully the freebie will be a male.)

I also have four juvenile OBTs that I hope to breed eventually .

And I have an immature male T strimi that'll be breeding once I buy an adult female.

Looking forward to all these projects and in the SUPER far future I'll be breeding my M. Balfouri so hopefully at least one of my three slings is female.

 

[Thistles]

1. I think you're talking about Theraphosidae sp. Ebony, which I think should be Selenocosmia sp. Ebony as it's been narrowed down. It's Asian, not NW and is NOTHING like Theraphosa blondi but I can definitely understand your confusion. It's a shiny black heavy webber and I LOVE them!

2. Usually the "unsexed" larger juveniles turn out to be males in my experience. That's how I got my male Monocentropus balfouri and it was completely intentional. 3" unsexed? That's a boy, thanks very much. Same with my 3 pamphos. All were sold as unsexed and all are boys. These are just anecdotal experiences, but there's definitely a trend when buying from hobbyists on the boards in my experience. I did just get a female juvenile from Paul and she was sold as unsexed, so that's nice. I know Anastasia sexes her babies as soon as possible and then marks up the females, so she's honest and at least then you know what you're getting!

3. Like Poec says, get a few sexed adult or sub-adult females so you have your breeders, then buy a group of slings to raise. That way when some males mature you have their dates all lined up and then the extra females are just nice to have for the next time.

 

[Poec54]

When I first got into tarantulas years ago I tried my best to stay away from males (by hoping I didn't get any never had a real method lol).

I got back into the hobby 15 months ago, after a long hiatus. So far this year I've hatched out 13 sacs. Plus I've sent mature males out on loan and will get more slings thru that. It doesn't take long to start producing if you focus on some species and plan your acquisitions accordingly. Then the slings you produce finance the next round of spiders you get, or you trade them for something else. And then the new ones get bred. If you look at your collection and determine where the holes are in breeding them, you can hatch out sacs every year and expand your collection. It's not hard, anyone with a female tarantula, even just one, can do it. One reason tarantula prices are much higher here than in Europe, is that in the US, so few females get paired up. People only want 'one of this pretty one, and one of that pretty one' and the females live lives of total solitude.