T's changing sex during a molt!

[Tescos]

I dont know if a Chaco Golden Knee Tarantula (what ever that is) has male Epigastric organs or not? but if they do then it is possible to mistake them for a spermatheca! Don´t belive me? Click here
The first pics in this thread are the Epigastric organs of a male Brachypelma vagans .I´m told that most or all Brachypelma species have these so I wouldn´t mind betting that other species do as well. I can not say at what age these develop in males but could it be possible that this is where the sexing mistake was made? :?

 

[manville]

Well, thanks for clearing that up guys..

 

[Ron_K]

I just love when I hear such extreme viewpoints being aired here. At this point in time there is no way to say definatively one way or another whether T's can or can't change sex during a molt. There just has not been enough study of each and every species of T to accurately determine if this is so. Until such time as it could be proven one way or another, I would lean towards a mistake being made in the first determination of sex.

Ron_K

 

[David Burns]

I dont know if a Chaco Golden Knee Tarantula (what ever that is) has male Epigastric organs or not? but if they do then it is possible to mistake them for a spermatheca! Don´t belive me? Click here
The first pics in this thread are the Epigastric organs of a male Brachypelma vagans .I´m told that most or all Brachypelma species have these so I wouldn´t mind betting that other species do as well. I can not say at what age these develop in males but could it be possible that this is where the sexing mistake was made? :?

The picture in this link is a female. Your going to confuse people. Males don't molt their sex organs because they only get them when they mature. The sperm producing organs are located deeper inside the opisthosoma.

 

[FryLock]

The picture in this link is a female. Your going to confuse people. Males don't molt their sex organs because they only get them when they mature. The sperm producing organs are located deeper inside the opisthosoma.

Humm tho's bits seen in the pictures of the moult are most lightly the outer most parts of the whole appratus, i know Chris (Tescos) is BTS certified to sex from moults (a course run by Mr Gallon) think back iirc im sure iv seen these things too and thought the spider was female when it was not :?

 

[Tescos]

The picture in this link is a female. Your going to confuse people. Males don't molt their sex organs because they only get them when they mature. The sperm producing organs are located deeper inside the opisthosoma.

Really How much would you like to bet on that ?Also I didn´t say that these are sperm produceing organs as I belive that the sperm is produce by the males testes and not by these epigastric organs or if you like call them male glands.
I really dont think that by knowing that these male glands DO exist ánd ARE moulted ,in some male tarantulas,is going to confuse people.In fact I would say that if you know about these things then it can help one hell of alot as to determin the sex. This Is why I posted the link as it may well explain why a male tarantula was sexed female from its skin.
You see, even you have been confused by the pic even after youve been told its from a male ,which goes to show me that if I had sent this skin to you to determin the sex I would have been dissapointed if I was hopeing for a female.

 

[David Burns]

Tescos,
I appreciate your acceditation, but now I am confused. I guess it's not as black and white as I had thought. I still THINK that pic was a female.

 

[FryLock]

I think i see it now thoses male epigastric organs seem to be growing from the other side conpared to were female spermatheca would be coming from.

See very unscientific picture

 

[FryLock]

Well i was almost right (no lower lip) check this link at lelle's site >Here<

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

Eh hem Where did you get that from for one spiders are not fish reptiles or amphibians

they are Arachnids

I have here herd of or seen any thing to say that arachnids can change there sex

I suggest you do some reshearch

Well I suggest you do some research, many mites are known to change sex and they are arachnids (do a search in google mite sex). Also there is a parasite that can change the sex of arachnids and insects click. Dont be so sure T's cannot change sex at certain times, Ive read somewhere tha certain species have been found more likely to do this..of course I cant find it now.

 

[Raindog]

Says you...

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

Says you...

lmao nice!!

 

[Elizabeth]

ACK!!! Isn't that "Fish"?!! That is so funny!

Anyway, Dr Breene hasn't answered yet. Wonder why? Maybe he didn't like the questions, or maybe he's on vacation...

It does look like it's pretty tricky to sex a T, trickier than I thought after reading the sexing info on the ATS site. I don't remember it saying much about "watch out for this" or "these dingy thingies could look like spermatheca"...


Ooh, I just checked out the link you gave, Frylock, the one to lelle's site. Wow! That's amazing! That link, provided early on, could have reduced this thread to 1 page (if people looked at it.)

 

[David Burns]

Really How much would you like to bet on that ?Also I didn´t say that these are sperm produceing organs as I belive that the sperm is produce by the males testes and not by these epigastric organs or if you like call them male glands.
I really dont think that by knowing that these male glands DO exist ánd ARE moulted ,in some male tarantulas,is going to confuse people.In fact I would say that if you know about these things then it can help one hell of alot as to determin the sex. This Is why I posted the link as it may well explain why a male tarantula was sexed female from its skin.
You see, even you have been confused by the pic even after youve been told its from a male ,which goes to show me that if I had sent this skin to you to determin the sex I would have been dissapointed if I was hopeing for a female.

After doing some research and getting some things translated from german I understand a little better. I would have to agree with what you say but what I discovered is that these male glands more or less dissappear in adult individuals. At least they are not seen as a part of the exuvia. So what you say is correct, also it is correct that the spermathacae would have protective covering or"lips" That are not seen in the aforesaid pic.

Now to the point of the thread Tarantulas Don't change sex!!!

 

[G_Wright]

Well I suggest you do some research, many mites are known to change sex and they are arachnids (do a search in google mite sex). Also there is a parasite that can change the sex of arachnids and insects click. Dont be so sure T's cannot change sex at certain times, Ive read somewhere tha certain species have been found more likely to do this..of course I cant find it now.

yes mite may be arachnids but mites are not spiders and I still have yeat to read anything abut spiders changing sex si still you need to do some research into spiders.

And yea I know you cant find it now cus it probable no existent.

Hand up here anyone who has had a Spider have a sex change.

If spiders could change there sex what would be the point in male sand females they could fertilise there own eggs.

Answer me that


an may i also ask how long have you been keeping T's for.

 

[Tony]

I'd like to know where you sent them off to for one..
Also since you send them off to someone else, what exactly is it that you saw in person this time to convince you otherwise? I have kept T's for a few years and sex by shed, and Haven't had any surprises. Ever. Perhaps this could be a case of mixing up spiders?
Sex swapping? Don't believe it myself...
T
(Dr Sherberger has talked about the little bits on a male that could throw you off, but their location should tell you something..Hey maybe I'll give him a ring-a-ding)

 

[Aviculariinae]

Hi all,
Brilliant thread, some great info and something new learn,t. Cheers Chris and Fry

Cheers
Brendan

 

[Tescos]

After doing some research and getting some things translated from german I understand a little better. I would have to agree with what you say but what I discovered is that these male glands more or less dissappear in adult individuals. At least they are not seen as a part of the exuvia. So what you say is correct, also it is correct that the spermathacae would have protective covering or"lips" That are not seen in the aforesaid pic.

Now to the point of the thread Tarantulas Don't change sex!!!

Can you post a link to where you found that these male glans more or less dissappear in adults.
As adult males tend to not shed after their finale moult I can´t say that the glands dissappear when they are adult or not.What I can say though from male skins Ive seen, is that as the male tarantula (which have these glands) gets older/larger then the glands have been easier to see in their shed moults.
I´m not quite sure what you mean by the spermatheca have a protective covering? Do you mean the Uterus Externus? If so then this is not a protective flap but is in fact the part of the Uterus that is shed in females.The rest of which is retained by the female during a moult.The Spermatheca infact branches off from this quite near to the gonopore slit,and leads to a dead end (if you like)just for the storage of sperm.
Because much of the spermatheca is made up of chitin I dont think it would need any more protection than that.
The lower lip (Bursa copulatrix) like Frylock said is also not present on that photo,not only that have a look at the hair structures in the upper alcove,they look abit thick to be a females also the upper alcove looks to be quite flat.There are other pointers but you dont need them for such clear cut case like that pic.
If you wish and if I still have it, I could send this skin out to you if you want to take a look for yourself.

Anyway all that aside and back to the point I also say at this point in time we know of no Tarantula that can change its sex. Thats not to say that one day we wont find one that can ,as new things are being turfed up every day who knows what surprises will be disscoverd in the future.

 

[David Burns]

Can you post a link to where you found that these male glans more or less dissappear in adults.
As adult males tend to not shed after their finale moult I can´t say that the glands dissappear when they are adult or not.What I can say though from male skins Ive seen, is that as the male tarantula (which have these glands) gets older/larger then the glands have been easier to see in their shed moults.
I´m not quite sure what you mean by the spermatheca have a protective covering? Do you mean the Uterus Externus? If so then this is not a protective flap but is in fact the part of the Uterus that is shed in females.The rest of which is retained by the female during a moult.The Spermatheca infact branches off from this quite near to the gonopore slit,and leads to a dead end (if you like)just for the storage of sperm.
Because much of the spermatheca is made up of chitin I dont think it would need any more protection than that.
The lower lip (Bursa copulatrix) like Frylock said is also not present on that photo,not only that have a look at the hair structures in the upper alcove,they look abit thick to be a females also the upper alcove looks to be quite flat.There are other pointers but you dont need them for such clear cut case like that pic.
If you wish and if I still have it, I could send this skin out to you if you want to take a look for yourself.

Anyway all that aside and back to the point I also say at this point in time we know of no Tarantula that can change its sex. Thats not to say that one day we wont find one that can ,as new things are being turfed up every day who knows what surprises will be disscoverd in the future.

I should have said that the cuticula structure become smaller and is less noticable in specimens as they near adulthood. The rest stands. You can't know, only speculate as to evolutions purpose for the Uterus exsternus. It might very well serve, also, as a protective covering. I acknowledged your correctness about the photo already.

I have to thank you for teaching me new stuff.

 

[Tescos]

I should have said that the cuticula structure become smaller and is less noticable in specimens as they near adulthood. The rest stands. You can't know, only speculate as to evolutions purpose for the Uterus exsternus. It might very well serve, also, as a protective covering. I acknowledged your correctness about the photo already.

I have to thank you for teaching me new stuff.

No Problem David I´m glad to have helped. One thing though If the Uterus exsternus had evolved to protect the spermatheca then why is the spermatheca more in a position towards the outside of the skin i.e it lays closer to the bottom of the abdomen and the uterus is on top of it? I know im just being a pain in the ass now but for this reason along with the fact that the spermatheca is alot harder than the unterus I cant see any reason at all how the uterus can protect it and from what?
Ok Ok ill stop now as this is getting abit teadieus!