trailerpark style co2 knokout

chyguy

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hey guys just thought id share here is an idea me and a friend had to knockout centipedes my friend brought me his seltzer water bottle and food grade co2 here is what i made and i tried it it works great sorry i didnt take any photos of the knocked out pede but ill do another and post pics thanks to everyone who made it happen thanks for looking cheyenne
 

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zonbonzovi

Creeping beneath you
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Haha- thanks for posting, Cheyenne. I was just looking at these yesterday and wondered if they had the capacity to do the job. What species/size did you anesthetize & how much co2 was needed?
 

chyguy

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it was a 4 in scolopendra heros cast. i maybe pumped it 4-5 times but only the one cartridge not sure how mjch co2 they contain but the ones for airguns contain 12 grams co2 these are a little smaller maybe 8 gram? but there is plenty left in the cartridge for another go maybe ill try it on one a little bigger next time:D later cheyenne
 

zonbonzovi

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Thanks, sir. That gives me a fair idea of how many cartridges to buy for the collection!
 

Galapoheros

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I've only seen those bottles in cartoons lol, where can you get those?, good idea:clap:.
 

chyguy

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whipcream bottle would work too they sell them at culinary shops .
 

KyuZo

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Okay, here is a question...
if you centipede has an incomplete molt with part of it's head stuck, would you knock it out and then help it?

I had to help on of mine the other day, but it was still molting. it's a live an well now.

it molted thru, but its head was stuck, LOL!!! i felt like a surgeon going in with my tweezers. the mouth parts were the most complicated parts
 

zonbonzovi

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Wow, Kyuzo, you must have steady hands.

On a side note, does anyone know if there is a big difference in using CO2 vs. NO2 for anesthesia?
 

KyuZo

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CO2 can put you to sleep. N2O can make you become insensible to pain to a certain level, but you will be conscious of what's going on... just without the pain.
 

Galapoheros

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Yeah I've worked on them before if a molt goes bad. But they can't bite during or right after a molt so I don't knock them out at that time. I think with CO2, you are simply depriving them of O2, temporarily suffocating them.
 

wonderfvl

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I believe canned air is co2 as well. And yes is does suffocate the animal, and can kill. If delivered into the chamber properly(very slowly), it's a humane way to kill feeder rats & mice. If not delivered properly, it can cause an acidic reaction in the throat of the animal and cause much suffering before death, sort of like drowning.

google "Guidelines for Performing Euthanasia via C02" if interested.
 

zonbonzovi

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Thanks for the link...interesting but I was hoping for more detail on measured doses of CO2 by volume...it is a good reminder not to overdo it since they seem to be using a relatively small dose to off the lab rats.

I'm wary of promoting canned air as I've heard that not all are made the same and that they're may be components that would be unnecessary/poss. hazardous to the creature. Also, nitrous oxide(used for whipped cream) might not be the best option compared with CO2(used for soda water), but I can't confirm that. If anybody has specifics on this in relation to small animals/inverts, I'd love to see them.
 

Galapoheros

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I don't have specifics but I did experience a pede knocked out from lack of oxygen(drowning) that surprise me. I forgot about a couple of polymorpha outside in a glass terrarium. It rained one night and water from the roof filled the terrarium. 18 hours later at least, I saw them dead on the bottom. I didn't quite believe they were dead so I put them on a table. After around a day or so, I saw one move a leg, they both made it eventually. I have over a couple of dozen pedes, maybe I should experiment with CO2, pushing the length of time longer and longer for science. It sounds bad but it would be a good thing to know, maybe somebody will do it before I do, or maybe somebody here has tried it(?) Of course a small mammal would die in the 18 scenario, a very diff respiratory system design for mammals. I don't know but I wonder if it's possible for pedes to extract just a little oxygen from water that allows them to last a while longer rather than completely depriving them of O2 by completely replacing it with CO2. There is also trapped air in the tracheal tubes when they are put under water so I think that might allow them to last a long time under water also. But I know this, if you have an emergency and no CO2, or don't care, just stick them underwater for 20 minutes or more. It's always worked for me, never have lost a pede to water.
 

zonbonzovi

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Interesting stuff, Todd. There was some submersion experimentation mentioned in the Lewis book with various species. They used a partial salt solution, though(?). Even with the salt, one of the pet sized beasts made it 8 hours without ill effects. I'm paraphrasing from memory, so nobody go and toss their irreplaceable 'pede in the bathtub just yet, OK? I know the respiration is quite similar to roaches & beetles that can survive extended times underwater. I left a handful of carabids in a screen top deli cup overnight in a rain storm while camping. Next day it was the same scenario- seemingly drowned beetles. I'll be damned if everyone of them didn't survive after dumping the water out and allowing them to dry.

I always thought that the spiracles remained constantly, suggesting that 'pedes are constantly respirating, but literature suggests otherwise. Here's an interesting article about discontinous gas exchange:

http://faculty.uml.edu/rhochberg/ho...ancedInvertZool/Myriapoda/Klok et al 2002.pdf

I won't even attempt to analyze this study(maybe someone with more brain power will chime in), but what I gathered was that oxygen could be retained if spiracles could be sealed. And, as Todd stated, oxygen could indeed be trapped in the tracheal tubes via displacement.

I may try the CO2 thing with the local stone 'pedes since they're ubiquitous and similar in size at adulthood to get an idea of how much gas is too much per weight.

Mazel tov!
 

cacoseraph

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water is highly polar. it might not be able to fit into small tubes


but then there is capillary action which would kind of oppose it

dunno which is stronger or exactly how either work =P





love the rig! we're down to like... ~$20 for a rig, conceivably?



also, some whip cream propellant is nitrous oxide NO2.... that could make a difference. if they knock out it is CO2, if they start laughing it is NO2
heh
 
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