- Joined
- Dec 8, 2006
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I do work in mysterious waysThanks for the replies. It's been quite helpful in refining my thoughts and ideas.
I understand your point on temperament, but please note: I am not saying that this "socialization" or "development" is meant to "tame" or "condition" a Tarantula into becoming a docile pet. I only meant it in the sense that perhaps they could learn or gain something from the extra time spent with mom. What that is, I do not have a clue. Though as Sparticus alluded to: it would probably serve some sort of survival function. Perhaps they stay with mom just for extra food, perhaps for early protection. Maybe the proximity and stimulation from touch helps develop a denser ganglia cluster, as evidenced in wolf spiders.
Stop making me search for everything and give me your treasure troves of bookmarked studies and papers!
How can a God be both omniscient and yet provide no answers?! And don't give me that "works in mysterious ways... trials and tribulations" copout!
This lack of research funding is truly a tough pill to swallow. Namely because being left without a conclusive answer is quite unfulfilling, but I guess that's what the entire hobby has been coping with for decades...
As above. I couldn't help but laugh at some of your comments though, thanks.
Seemingly frantic to get away from their kids? Sounds like some human parents!
I'm practically convinced T's are not as "low order" or "base instincts" as I was a few days ago. Their behaviors seem to be quite complex when compared to other organisms I'm versed about... corals, snails, shrimp, and ants, worms for example. Maybe not as complex as a reptile, a bird, octopus, or a mammal, but certainly pretty complex for something "without a brain."
Perhaps they are just displaying their instinctual maternal adaptations for survival, and I am reading too deep into it.
Boooo!
Even without conclusive research, can we not play with ideas and come up with theories based on what we do know and have observed? I'm not calling for a decisive conclusion on the subject by any means!
Though I will understand if anybody chooses to hold off on forming a conclusion one way or the other until there is more data.
Make no mistake, I am not under any sort of anthropomorphic delusion, thinking that Tarantulas have the same capacity for emotional bonds and mental development as say a dolphin or a raven or a dog or an elephant or a primate. I'm merely wondering if they are indeed as basic as the hobby has stamped them to be, and from what I've seen so far, there is no conclusive evidence either way due to a lack of research.
In the marine field, fish were assumed to NOT have feelings or personality for a long time, until adequate studies were done to prove certain species do.
Aren't we assuming Tarantulas all programmed identically and follow a set of basic rules as well, (like ants or bees?) We have plenty of anecdotal references that they differ from one another in temperament and behavior, even within the same species and often the same individual.
Tangent thought: if "personality" (behavior?) differs within an individual between molts, then shouldn't that be a clue that they aren't all programmed a certain way? Unless that instinctual programming encompasses all the types of behaviors displayed/observed and all Tarantulas eventually display the same set of behaviors at one point...
I know I am assuming a lot in thinking they might be more complex than we give them credit for, but if anybody has evidence that they are DEFINITELY base instinct animals and they're all exactly the same then I would like to see it. Not because I don't believe you, but because I simply haven't seen it yet. (Ignorant)
I can think of another example of Arachnid complex behavior: we have studies that show jumpers and wolf spiders communicate to one another through vibrations they generate by drumming. Researchers recorded these different drumming patterns and theorize there are various drumming signals that could mean many different things--what they are, we don't know yet.
Mating is not the only instance of reported Arachnid communications, though I concede it would be a stretch to assume Tarantulas also communicate through this drumming method because no one has done a study on it (to my knowledge). However when I think of mature males drumming to females, and all the posts about "different species of T's drumming to each other and sitting on the enclosure walls near each other" I can't help but wonder if they are indeed attempting communication in some form.
Again, I'm aware this is a comparison between different animals. But I'm assuming Arachnids aren't THAT different. I know I'm assuming a lot of things when forming these thoughts.
I appreciate the recommendation, I will add it to my backlog and try to source an online copy. If I can't, I'll have to find it somewhere else. Mind if I borrow your copy? ... I've returned every book I've ever borrowed, just check my library card.
Appreciate the clarification. Any insight you want to add to my messy and incomplete web of thoughts?
This is going much further than the study I've posted. Maybe I should quit, but I can't stop having ideas and questions.
Another question if you don't mind... feel free to refuse to answer and opt out. I simply don't want to impose on anybody.
I understand you primarily have a focus on breeding, so this one is directly regarding the breeding process.
It's been stated--backed up even, by decades of breeding and thousands of successful eggsacs--that most slings will develop and grow up perfectly healthy when removed from their mom and incubated artificially.
I've also heard it stated (non-academically) that because natural cannibalism isn't allowed in breeder-reared sacs, that the developmentally challenged or genetically inferior slings that would normally be cannibalized are raised out and passed on. If this is true, would you consider that leaving them to develop with mom might potentially be a natural way to cull out these less fit (weaker, smaller, slower developing) specimens and allow the stronger ones a better chance at survival? Or would the selection simply be random amongst all the slings?
I can reference a paper on Guppy Genetics by Diana Walstad on the effects of this type of breeding in fancy guppies. Perhaps it would apply here as well?
The short of it is: because most guppy breeders don't grow out every specimen to their full life to select against those with health issues later in life and breed almost every specimen regardless of health, they concentrate and pass on faulty genetics. Essentially lazy and irresponsible profit motivated breeding of guppies has weakened the genetics of entire breeding groups and lines.
It may not apply here. Please forgive me for making the connection if it doesn't.
2nd part: knowing what we know about the development of other Arachnids raised by their moms, do you perhaps have at least a tiny suspicion that this might also apply to at least one Tarantula species or genus? If so, which one?
Bonus question: you mentioned standard procedure for breeders, but are you aware of any researchers or hobbyists who have attempted to rear their eggsacs with mom and without mom to make comparisons? I know there is a lot of cannibalism, and at a certain point even mom starts predating on her young, so most people do not attempt it.
I recall an experiment (Purdue Uni I think) in which they raised a colony of Monocentra balfouri side by side with solo specimens and recorded stuff such as rate of growth and level of activity amongst other variables. Just wondering if anybody has done that for other species/slings.
Please note: I am not attempting to criticize or question how you or the hobby has refined the breeding process.
Oh boy... such a wonderfully informative and thoughtfully written response. I'm very glad that I tagged you, despite my fumbling about.
First of all, I appreciate your patience and time. I can only attribute my oversight to poor focus and jumping between multiple publications and formulating thoughts and questions without giving time for the information to fully sink in or to seek more information. I'm a bit scatterbrained and my ADHD doesn't help me much. I needed to post process but didn't because I got excited to think that T's had the potential to "socialize" (not social interactions, but develop) and potentially learn behaviors from their moms. Perhaps if I held off on posting overnight I would have formulted better thoughts and edited a better worded post.
Second, I will apologize in advance for not having a reply adequate to thank you for taking the time to explain what you have to me.
You've both answered a lot of questions and left a bunch stamped: "To Be Answered At a Later Date" in my mind.
A lot of the questions and ponderings I've had above could be put on pause by what you and other members have explained. Observations on their base instincts and my assumptions could be simplified to "a set of base behaviors and instincts" and written off due to a lack of research or observations.
A lot of my ponderings have been reinforced by what you've mentioned as well, namely with the mention of maternal instincts observed in the wild. It would stand to reason that perhaps certain species within the taxa would develop a special survival adaptation for the environment they live in, and perhaps in an area with a lower concentration of smaller prey animals (as Sparticus mentioned) the young simply stay at home longer because of the lack of food their size. Kind of like how 30 year olds in my demographic still live with their parents!
In regards to my Baboon comment:
I cannot find what I read (it was a PDF image with writing but I'm unsure if it a peer reviewed study) but it was of an observation of Monocentropus balfouri in the wild. Babies of various ages and sizes were found living around and IN the burrow with mom. Also found a write up about the development rate and behaviors in captivity in solo specimens vs. those kept in groups that suggests living together is beneficial for this species as it helps them develop faster earlier, perhaps resulting in a more successful dispersal later when mom kicks them all out of her space. I probably should have looked at the sources before running with the ideas.
Another Baboon species that was in my mind was Harpactira pulchripes. (This one I can remember the source for, but it isn't an academic study or paper.) This excerpt is from Tom Patterson's website on his page regarding Harpactira pulchripes: "In the wild, females have been spotted with older slings still congregating around them. Like the Monocentropus balfouri, it appears that this baboon mother is quite nurturing to her young,"
Perhaps it is just unverified commentary? I have not had the chance to speak to Tom Patterson or find a paper on the subject.
I jumped a few steps and connected some dots on this literally last night, perhaps incorrectly. Yes, I had to take a few steps back, thanks for the wealth of insight and information. Really, thanks for your input everybody, I was half expecting to just get all my ideas shot down.
Octopi (and the other cephalopods) are smarter than most animals on the planet, including many human animals- I have data to support that last one.
There’s a myriad of T questions I’d love answered, such as these “cysts”
