TKG Points of Discussion

[Biollantefan54]

I don't know what you have been reading but any time any one asks how to care for a specific tarantula. People usually don't say give it an enclosure that is 11"x6"x10" with 67.5% humidity, provide a mix of soil from their native habitat.

I don't know about any other guys but I think people keep things simple enough, I think the newer people are making it hard.

 

[TroyMcClureOG82]

I don't know what you have been reading but any time any one asks how to care for a specific tarantula. People usually don't say give it an enclosure that is 11"x6"x10" with 67.5% humidity, provide a mix of soil from their native habitat.

I don't know about any other guys but I think people keep things simple enough, I think the newer people are making it hard.

I think a lot of new people come in thinking they are going to do things even better than everybody else. They'll hear somebody say that a shoe box at room temp with 4" of coconut fiber, a water dish and a hide is adequate for X species and they will think that person is old school when in reality that person is probably doing a better job than said newb would trying to perfectly emulate that spiders natural environment. Newbs come across threads like this and think Stan needs a delorean to remain relevant and disregard a wealth of information.

 

[Biollantefan54]

Am I the only one that gets slightly annoyed when someone asks how to care for a tarantula, and after they get good information, they ask "What percent humidity"? That really annoys me lol. They don't need a *specific* humidity lol!

 

[TroyMcClureOG82]

Am I the only one that gets slightly annoyed when someone asks how to care for a tarantula, and after they get good information, they ask "What percent humidity"? That really annoys me lol. They don't need a *specific* humidity lol!

What's worse is when experienced keeper tells them it doesn't matter as long as they're substrate has the right moisture content and their ventilation is proper. Said newb goes out and buys a zoomed dial humidity gauge mist his enclosure until it reads 80 percent and thinks he knows more than the person he go the original information from

 

[Biollantefan54]

I do it 3 ways.

Desert

Kind of humid

Humid

Not that hard. lol

 

[goodoldneon]

This is the exact thing this thread is trying to change. Keeping spider's alive is very different than having spiders thrive. I don't think replicating a specific species natural temps, humidity and seasons is "trying to revolutionize" anything. It's just trying to create the best environment for the spider. Isn't that the goal? Are you keeping them all the same for ease and convenience? If so, that's what needs to change.

How does one determine if their tarantula is "thriving" as opposed to surviving?

 

[TroyMcClureOG82]

How does one determine if their tarantula is "thriving" as opposed to surviving?

Ask a self proclaimed expert on the interwebs

If you're not trying to breed it's pretty simple. Does your spider eat, poop, and molt? Does it seem well adjusted in its enclosure (not restless and exhibiting natural behaviors)? If so to say the spider isn't thriving is subjective

 

[Poec54]

How does one determine if their tarantula is "thriving" as opposed to surviving?

Thriving is living it's full life cycle, including breeding.

---------- Post added 01-10-2015 at 08:40 PM ----------

If you're not trying to breed it's pretty simple. Does your spider eat, poop, and molt? Does it seem well adjusted in its enclosure (not restless and exhibiting natural behaviors)? If so to say the spider isn't thriving is subjective

There's a difference between keeping a spider alive and giving it the conditions that it needs to reproduce.

If we don't propagate all of these species in the US, the hobby's in trouble if European imports are shut down.

 

[bscheidt1020]

Thriving is living it's full life cycle, including breeding.

---------- Post added 01-10-2015 at 08:40 PM ----------



There's a difference between keeping a spider alive and giving it the conditions that it needs to reproduce.

If we don't propagate all of these species in the US, the hobby's in trouble if European imports are shut down.

Did you breed cobras? Just curious. I have read alot about the how to keep blood pythons in a natural setup, mostly revolving around higher humidity levels. I have also read of breeders that keep these and other snakes in drawer style racks with a water bowl and an occasional mist or soak and produce offspring consistently. These snakes are thriving in drawers with very basic and generalized husbandry.....I have a WAG that tarantulas will do the same....not saying care should not be tailored to a species, just that it probably can be tailored into generalized categories for groups of species.

 

[Poec54]

These snakes are thriving in drawers with very basic and generalized husbandry.....I have a WAG that tarantulas will do the same....not saying care should not be tailored to a species, just that it probably can be tailored into generalized categories for groups of species.

Doesn't work that way for most tarantulas. Almost every species in the US hobby was originally brought over as CBB slings from Europe, and there's still many thousands being imported to this day. Americans haven't figured out how to get viable slings from most of them. We're way behind the curve. There's a few people in the US breeding some of the rare ones, but it's a drop in the bucket.

 

[BobGrill]

Doesn't work that way for most tarantulas. Almost every species in the US hobby was originally brought over as CBB slings from Europe, and there's still many thousands being imported to this day. Americans haven't figured out how to get viable slings from most of them. We're way behind the curve. There's a few people in the US breeding some of the rare ones, but it's a drop in the bucket.

It seems like it's not just rare species either. Didn't you mention in another thread about B.smithi being more difficult to breed here? Why is that? Hopefully I'm not misquoting you, but I recall you saying that.

 

[Poec54]

It seems like it's not just rare species either. Didn't you mention in another thread about B.smithi being more difficult to breed here? Why is that? Hopefully I'm not misquoting you, but I recall you saying that.

Unfortunately true. They were the species that kicked off the hobby in the late 1960's, and we got complacent with a couple decades of $10 w/c adult females. Since the Brachypelma import ban, most B smithi slings are coming from Europe.

 

[BobGrill]

Huh cause I was considering breeding mine. It seems like we could use some more captive bred slings in the U.S.

 

[Poec54]

Huh cause I was considering breeding mine. It seems like we could use some more captive bred slings in the U.S.

Absolutely. As popular as smithi is, them having a few hundred slings per sac, and being in the hobby for over 40 years, they should be everywhere and cheap. That should be the spiders beginners get instead of OBT's.

 

[bscheidt1020]

I understand that we in the US have yet to figure out some of the rare species or difficult species to breed. I am saying that I would not be surprised that when we do, the care required to get these species to breed is fairly simple and straightforward. Again, just a guess. Do none of the senior guys in the hobby have German contacts that can share there methods or are they not willing to?

 

[Poec54]

I understand that we in the US have yet to figure out some of the rare species or difficult species to breed. I am saying that I would not be surprised that when we do, the care required to get these species to breed is fairly simple and straightforward. Again, just a guess. Do none of the senior guys in the hobby have German contacts that can share there methods or are they not willing to?

Simple and straightforward as in giving them the climate triggers: warm and cool, moist and dry, low elevation and high elevation. Some species are in areas with summer rainy seasons, others with winter rainy seasons. Some areas cool down in the winter (even in the tropics depending on elevation), others stay more consistent. Few Americans understand how these works for most species, hence the large number of European imports that still come in.

If we are to keep the hobby going long-term outside of Europe, we need to be breeding these species ourselves. The TKG recommendation of keeping almost all tarantulas in arid conditions is poor advice, most won't breed that way. It ignores the habitat triggers. That's fine if you want a couple B albopilosum that you can handle, but the hobby's light years beyond that now. That's where Stan has a choice of rehashing what's been advised in three books now, or write a final book that will help ensure the hobby's survival in the future. These are vital things that go far beyond any current publisher's expectations or deadlines. If this is the last edition, it needs to eclipse the others.

The hobby that Stan and I were pioneers in decades ago is a thing of the past, only a feint memory. We could have never imagined that countries would shut down w/c exports, that people would actually buy slings (and at steep prices!), that the internet would come along and make this a huge global hobby, and that taxonomists would take a renewed interest in tarantulas. These are amazing developments most people take for granted. Things will continue to change, and in unexpected ways. For the hobby to remain healthy for the next generation, the breeding of most species can't be left to a few people. It has to be a group effort. If those breeders reduce their efforts for personal reasons or drop out altogether, then what?

To keep politicians and anti-exotic pet groups from banning our animals, handling needs to be seriously downplayed. Most of today's species are tropicals and are poor candidates to hold. That's another way the TKG needs become current with today's hobby. Legislation is a very real threat. With all that we've accomplished, it would be a shame to lose it because of a high profile handling bite that goes viral. For the TKG to become a relevant part of today's hobby, it's necessary for Stan to put aside some of his approaches, that were workable in the 1990's, but aren't in the best interests for what the hobby has become.

 

[shawno821]

How is this hobby supposed to change and catch up to the Europeans when anytime anyone does something a little different they get jumped on in these forums for being a "newb" and scoffed at? I get it for strictly controlling the humidity in my T room.Most people on here scoff for even having a humidity gauge,even though I use a few digital ones,and not the old dial type.Poec,you are part of this group.Things will never change if people aren't allowed to branch out and try different things.Nearly all my breeding projects are "tough" ones to breed,that is what attracts me to them.Reptiles were the same thing,I bred difficult species like U.phantasticus,that no one was breeding at the time.After some research,I decided to keep them cold,and that's exactly what they needed,they started breeding like rabbits for me.Things MUST be done differently,or we will always be behind the Europeans,and knocking everyone who comes here with new ideas is not the way to do it.In a way,these forums are helping to keep us right where we are.

 

[TroyMcClureOG82]

This seems like a lot of hearsay and conjecture. Germany has really relaxed laws and a good deal of smuggling. People are assuming they're not using smuggled WC adults. It's also a numbers game. More spiders to start = more spiders produced. Does anybody have any idea what percentage of slings in Europe end up living a full life cycle and reproducing? Wouldn't surprise me if it's similar to ours in the states.
.

---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 09:03 AM ----------

The only way to accurately guage humitity is with a dry and wet bulb thermometer and math. Unless we're sticking probes down burrows we have little idea what that microclimate is like. They don't exactly experience the weather the way a non ground dwelling animal would

 

[bscheidt1020]

How is this hobby supposed to change and catch up to the Europeans when anytime anyone does something a little different they get jumped on in these forums for being a "newb" and scoffed at? I get it for strictly controlling the humidity in my T room.Most people on here scoff for even having a humidity gauge,even though I use a few digital ones,and not the old dial type.Poec,you are part of this group.Things will never change if people aren't allowed to branch out and try different things.Nearly all my breeding projects are "tough" ones to breed,that is what attracts me to them.Reptiles were the same thing,I bred difficult species like U.phantasticus,that no one was breeding at the time.After some research,I decided to keep them cold,and that's exactly what they needed,they started breeding like rabbits for me.Things MUST be done differently,or we will always be behind the Europeans,and knocking everyone who comes here with new ideas is not the way to do it.In a way,these forums are helping to keep us right where we are.

I think this is a good point. Some of the same people that say we need to study a T species' native climate and reproduce it are the same ones to draw judgement on the use of gauges to monitor humidity or those that keep their T rooms in the 80's via supplemental heating. If it is as simple as "pretty moist vs pretty arid," people should just say so. If we need to specifically attempt to recreate the native conditions exactly some equipment may be necessary. If the latter is the goal, then maybe the heating and gauges are appropriate. If so, why are folks scoffing at them. It seems contradictory.

 

[TroyMcClureOG82]

I think this is a good point. Some of the same people that say we need to study a T species' native climate and reproduce it are the same ones to draw judgement on the use of gauges to monitor humidity or those that keep their T rooms in the 80's via supplemental heating. If it is as simple as "pretty moist vs pretty arid," people should just say so. If we need to specifically attempt to recreate the native conditions exactly some equipment may be necessary. If the latter is the goal, then maybe the heating and gauges are appropriate. If so, why are folks scoffing at them. It seems contradictory.

People scoff because the gauges are not accurate. I know this from experience with artificial bird egg incubation. Unless you are using the two thermometers then you're guessing what the humidity is. If it's not perfect bird eggs won't hatch

---------- Post added 01-11-2015 at 09:37 AM ----------

Also unless one has a LOT of experience setting up enclosures with various heat gradients, humidity, ext they are probably likely to cause morenharm than good trying to perfectly replicate an environment vs giving simple gerneralized husbandry