- Joined
- Jul 19, 2002
- Messages
- 774
what do you guys /gals know about this sp.? parthogenic are'nt they? how much would they sell for here if i had some giving young? thanks just curious--Jeff
tityus serrulatus
- Thread starter Weapon-X
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,363
Any species of Tityus is quite rare in the US hobby. Babies of this species would probably go for a little more than average price of the more desired and more available species, but not all that much more. You wouldn't be able to get P.metallica prices...not even close...The scorpion hobby just does not have fantastic sellability that T's have when they are first introduced.
John
];')
John
];')
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2003
- Messages
- 339
It would be worth the effort, if you could get some legally. I would assume that dealers mark up their products 100%, and since adult A. bicolor, which really isn't that rare a sp., can go for $40, I'd imagine most dealers could get away with selling a baby T. serrulatus for at least $40--meaning you'd make 20 from them for each baby. Since these scorpions are parthogenic, you could feasibly get a good number of young from only a few adults. The only problems would, of course, be legality. No dealer is going to buy illegally imported scorpions, so that's going to be trickey. Also, you're going to want more than one blood line in the States (as I remember, there are males of this sp, they're just rare, and can turn female if they don't come across any females when they're adults--this is correct, right?). So you'd need more than one to really make it worth your time. The up side is that these should grow fairly quickly, probably reaching adulthood within a year, so turn-around would be great, if you could get up and running.
Just some thoughts,
Chris
Just some thoughts,
Chris
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 707
Weapon-X,
Parthenogenetic scorpions of this caliber is NOT something you want to bring openly into the trade, regardless of whether the person/s whom are purchasing them from you are quite well endowed when it comes to the keeping of scorpions. This species grows extremely fast, though not as fast as T. bahiensis and the T. bahiensis group, and molts from them can be seen more frequently than the common species of Centruroides in the hobby and they grow to an average larger size than most Centruroides that are commonly available. This simply states that their breeding could easily get out of hand and overwhelm someone to the point that they'd be more than willing to sell to inexperienced hobbyists who may "accidentally" let one or two loose. The temp and climate in the South Eastern US is pretty close to "on the money" for the species anyway, and they could multiply quite fast and damage the current population of specimen from that native location. As a note, T. serrulatus is, and has been a very major issue of Brazils' for several years, due to their rapid ability to multiply and the severe effects of their sting. I personally think it is our job, as the hobbyists, to keep the species, the environment, and ourselves, safe from such a highly possible occurance.
The species I could not recommend to enter the trade are as follows:
T. acutidens, T. anneae, T. kuryi, T. lamottei, T. serrulatus, and T. stigmurus ... they are the stigmurus group (parthenogenesis is probable with all).
Chris,
To address you on the matter of T. serrulatus...
This should shed some more light on the subject for you. There's some pretty good info there. If you don't have a fast connection speed, you may want to save it to your computer and read it from your own files as I have done. It has a tendency to freeze up on slower connections, considering it's size. This also contains information on T. fasciolatus, which is said to be bisexual (I am currently unaware of whether this is supposed to include the rest of the bahiensis group or not).
http://www.european-arachnology.org/proceedings/16th/Lourenco.PDF
adios,
edw.
Parthenogenetic scorpions of this caliber is NOT something you want to bring openly into the trade, regardless of whether the person/s whom are purchasing them from you are quite well endowed when it comes to the keeping of scorpions. This species grows extremely fast, though not as fast as T. bahiensis and the T. bahiensis group, and molts from them can be seen more frequently than the common species of Centruroides in the hobby and they grow to an average larger size than most Centruroides that are commonly available. This simply states that their breeding could easily get out of hand and overwhelm someone to the point that they'd be more than willing to sell to inexperienced hobbyists who may "accidentally" let one or two loose. The temp and climate in the South Eastern US is pretty close to "on the money" for the species anyway, and they could multiply quite fast and damage the current population of specimen from that native location. As a note, T. serrulatus is, and has been a very major issue of Brazils' for several years, due to their rapid ability to multiply and the severe effects of their sting. I personally think it is our job, as the hobbyists, to keep the species, the environment, and ourselves, safe from such a highly possible occurance.
The species I could not recommend to enter the trade are as follows:
T. acutidens, T. anneae, T. kuryi, T. lamottei, T. serrulatus, and T. stigmurus ... they are the stigmurus group (parthenogenesis is probable with all).
Chris,
To address you on the matter of T. serrulatus...
This should shed some more light on the subject for you. There's some pretty good info there. If you don't have a fast connection speed, you may want to save it to your computer and read it from your own files as I have done. It has a tendency to freeze up on slower connections, considering it's size. This also contains information on T. fasciolatus, which is said to be bisexual (I am currently unaware of whether this is supposed to include the rest of the bahiensis group or not).
http://www.european-arachnology.org/proceedings/16th/Lourenco.PDF
adios,
edw.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2003
- Messages
- 339
Ed,
I understand your point, and I think that you make some very responsible observations, however, I do know that some keepers already have scorpions of this genus in their possession, so to say that only those who were lucky enough to come across what they wanted when they wanted it get to have them is kind of silly--there are lots of other serious keepers who would like the opportunity to observe these animals on their own terms.
That being said, the propensity for the sale of these animals to inexperienced keepers is note worthy at the least. Still, I highly doubt that a Tityus sp. has *never* accidentally traveled with a passanger from Brazil to Florida. Given all the shipments of all the produce/raw materials from that country to the US, it must have happened at some point. Nevertheless, we do not, as of now, have a T. serrulatus problem in the South Eastern US. This is most likely due to the fact that scorpions are slow to evolve. The most obvious example is C. gracilis, of course, but that didn't have to travel very far, and even then, it's vemon in the US is far from significant. The US is not Brazil, and to say that a T. serrulatus in the US would pose the same problems as a T. serrulatus in Brazil is a jump to a lot of conclusions.
Then again, if it is even possible that this animal could get out and offer Floridians the same problems that it does Brazilians, then I'd say keep it off my soil!
I guess I'm just whinny--some of us want to study these animals without going over seas! In the end you may be right, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!
Chris
I understand your point, and I think that you make some very responsible observations, however, I do know that some keepers already have scorpions of this genus in their possession, so to say that only those who were lucky enough to come across what they wanted when they wanted it get to have them is kind of silly--there are lots of other serious keepers who would like the opportunity to observe these animals on their own terms.
That being said, the propensity for the sale of these animals to inexperienced keepers is note worthy at the least. Still, I highly doubt that a Tityus sp. has *never* accidentally traveled with a passanger from Brazil to Florida. Given all the shipments of all the produce/raw materials from that country to the US, it must have happened at some point. Nevertheless, we do not, as of now, have a T. serrulatus problem in the South Eastern US. This is most likely due to the fact that scorpions are slow to evolve. The most obvious example is C. gracilis, of course, but that didn't have to travel very far, and even then, it's vemon in the US is far from significant. The US is not Brazil, and to say that a T. serrulatus in the US would pose the same problems as a T. serrulatus in Brazil is a jump to a lot of conclusions.
Then again, if it is even possible that this animal could get out and offer Floridians the same problems that it does Brazilians, then I'd say keep it off my soil!
I guess I'm just whinny--some of us want to study these animals without going over seas! In the end you may be right, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!
Chris
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,363
Here in Colorado you see scorpions from Mexico from time to time as they occasionally hitch a ride on loads of rock used for landscaping. I would imagine if they jumped ship down in New Mexico it would be possible for them to make it...but I have yet to hear of any established populations of Non-US Centruroides.
John
];')
John
];')
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Messages
- 492
I can see both Ed and Chris's points of view. A rapidly growing, parthenogenic, highly venomous animal adapted to environmental conditions similar to those found in parts of the US is probably too potentially problematic to allow into the hobby, given that there are no safeguards to prevent irresponsible keepers from getting them. On the other hand, there certainly are several keepers who are responsible and skilled enough to keep them safely, and may want to have some. The problem, of course, is what happens if they end up in the hands of someone who does not meet these criteria. I'm realistic enough to understand that it's such unfortunate occurances that, even if rare exceptions, will define our hobby in the eyes of the public and the government.
We can take a lesson from the diving industry. When diving first started, it was considered a "dangerous" activity, and many governmental bodies at the local, state, and federal level either did pass, or considered passing, laws to regulate it. However, as anyone in an activity where the government (almost always without any understanding of what they're doing, and usually under the pressure of groups that are equally mis- or uninformed) gets involved knows, it's never a good thing for the group being regulated. So the diving industry got proactive and began a very organized self-regulation program. By demonstrating the ability to regulate themselves responsibly, they've successfully fought off several attempts in this country by government to impose outside regulation. While the formation of an arachnid or invertebrate keeper's association might not be realistic (although it might not be a bad idea either), if responsible keepers talk to each other as we do here, and continue to ensure that "accidents", like the release of harmful species, do not occur, we can protect our hobby from governmental over-regulation. Unfortunately, that may mean keeping some species out of the hobby at large.
We can take a lesson from the diving industry. When diving first started, it was considered a "dangerous" activity, and many governmental bodies at the local, state, and federal level either did pass, or considered passing, laws to regulate it. However, as anyone in an activity where the government (almost always without any understanding of what they're doing, and usually under the pressure of groups that are equally mis- or uninformed) gets involved knows, it's never a good thing for the group being regulated. So the diving industry got proactive and began a very organized self-regulation program. By demonstrating the ability to regulate themselves responsibly, they've successfully fought off several attempts in this country by government to impose outside regulation. While the formation of an arachnid or invertebrate keeper's association might not be realistic (although it might not be a bad idea either), if responsible keepers talk to each other as we do here, and continue to ensure that "accidents", like the release of harmful species, do not occur, we can protect our hobby from governmental over-regulation. Unfortunately, that may mean keeping some species out of the hobby at large.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,363
That is kind of what the ATS (American Tarantulas Society) is geared toward doing...There have been a few limited letter writing campaigns to govt officials in the past but the organization is still small. The ATS promotes responsible invert keeping and collecting and has professionals as well as newbies as its members. It includes people from all walks of life; from bikers to geophysicists to musicians to arachnologists and more. It costs only $20US per year to be a member and is a non-profit organisation.
http://atshq.org/
I'm a member and I participate in it's functions as much as I am able. This small community oriented organization IMO has the potential to be a self-regulating body for the invert hobby. I think the scorpion end of the invert keeping community is too small to have much of a voice in these matters but would benefit from cooperation with a group such as the ATS.
John
];')
http://atshq.org/
I'm a member and I participate in it's functions as much as I am able. This small community oriented organization IMO has the potential to be a self-regulating body for the invert hobby. I think the scorpion end of the invert keeping community is too small to have much of a voice in these matters but would benefit from cooperation with a group such as the ATS.
John
];')
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 707
Chris,
Of course I can reasonably understand exactly why it would be nice to have species such as this in the hobby and I simply hate the idea that it is illegal to import them as well. I for one would love to get my hands on one of it's counterparts...T. stigmurus. The bad thing about keeping such a species that we truthfully don't know that much about, is the fact that we really don't know much about it. Given, the question is, "How can we learn if we don't have them here to work with and learn from?". Simple. There are already numbers of keepers in North America who have them and we just might get to learn something about them, through them (if they can be found and will admit to being a keeper of the species). If you want to learn more about the species in order to possibly change the future of the species being imported, find and speak with a keeper of them and find out if you really want to. Massa is on the boards and he can inform you a bit about what keeping them is like, but he is also in their environment and they may react completely different under the different situations. They might molt twice as often, grow faster or slower, breed less or more often. The possibilities are endless as long as the adaptation is minor. Given, I don't think the entire species is going to start being born with a second tail, but that goes a little deeper than acclimation. Perhaps things will change with this species in the future, but you never know.
adios,
edw.
And by all means, I'm not critisizing your opinion, because it's the same thing most keepers in the trade desire to keep, and the same reasons they desire to keep them. This includes myself.
Of course I can reasonably understand exactly why it would be nice to have species such as this in the hobby and I simply hate the idea that it is illegal to import them as well. I for one would love to get my hands on one of it's counterparts...T. stigmurus. The bad thing about keeping such a species that we truthfully don't know that much about, is the fact that we really don't know much about it. Given, the question is, "How can we learn if we don't have them here to work with and learn from?". Simple. There are already numbers of keepers in North America who have them and we just might get to learn something about them, through them (if they can be found and will admit to being a keeper of the species). If you want to learn more about the species in order to possibly change the future of the species being imported, find and speak with a keeper of them and find out if you really want to. Massa is on the boards and he can inform you a bit about what keeping them is like, but he is also in their environment and they may react completely different under the different situations. They might molt twice as often, grow faster or slower, breed less or more often. The possibilities are endless as long as the adaptation is minor. Given, I don't think the entire species is going to start being born with a second tail, but that goes a little deeper than acclimation. Perhaps things will change with this species in the future, but you never know.
adios,
edw.
And by all means, I'm not critisizing your opinion, because it's the same thing most keepers in the trade desire to keep, and the same reasons they desire to keep them. This includes myself.
- Joined
- May 22, 2003
- Messages
- 112
Hey Edward,
yes, I'm still here in the boards, and I've got good news! The guys i know from the Zoology Lab at my university gave me a T. serrulatus today, and the best part is: she has 3 babies on her back! That makes me a keeper of four T. serrulatus. But, about being a font of information I don't know if I could help someone, I'm just a keeper and a lover of this pets but, I know just the basic about them, mostly I know what I asked on the boards and observing them. Anyway, if someone has something to ask me about them, I'll be entirely pleasured in answering, if I know. :}
Thanks!
Thiago Massa.
yes, I'm still here in the boards, and I've got good news! The guys i know from the Zoology Lab at my university gave me a T. serrulatus today, and the best part is: she has 3 babies on her back! That makes me a keeper of four T. serrulatus. But, about being a font of information I don't know if I could help someone, I'm just a keeper and a lover of this pets but, I know just the basic about them, mostly I know what I asked on the boards and observing them. Anyway, if someone has something to ask me about them, I'll be entirely pleasured in answering, if I know. :}
Thanks!
Thiago Massa.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2003
- Messages
- 339
Actually, Thiago, you can be a very valuble source of information.
For example, you can tell us what temps/humidity you keep the scorps at, and how fast the young grow. You can also tell us how often the females produce young--a rather big deal with respect to what we were talking about. As Rubio (spelling?) says in his book, since these animals aren't studied as in depth as others even casual keepers can make important observations.
So thanks for being there,
Chris
For example, you can tell us what temps/humidity you keep the scorps at, and how fast the young grow. You can also tell us how often the females produce young--a rather big deal with respect to what we were talking about. As Rubio (spelling?) says in his book, since these animals aren't studied as in depth as others even casual keepers can make important observations.
So thanks for being there,
Chris
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,363
Yes Thiago,
It would be very nice if you took good notes on anything you observe for the reasons Reitz has stated in his post. There is very little information on most Tityus spp out there.
John
];')
It would be very nice if you took good notes on anything you observe for the reasons Reitz has stated in his post. There is very little information on most Tityus spp out there.
John
];')
- Joined
- May 22, 2003
- Messages
- 112
All right peolple, I'll do what can. 
Thanks!
Thanks!
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Messages
- 492
For anyone who is interested in them, I recently ran across this reference on their keeping:
Candido D.M., Lucas S. [in press]. Maintenance of scorpions of the genus Tityus Koch (Scorpiones, Buthidae) for venom abtention // J. Venom. Anom. Toxins.
It was in press in 2002, so it should be published by now, though I haven't tried to track it down yet. It might have some useful information for you Thiago, if you can get it.
Gary
Candido D.M., Lucas S. [in press]. Maintenance of scorpions of the genus Tityus Koch (Scorpiones, Buthidae) for venom abtention // J. Venom. Anom. Toxins.
It was in press in 2002, so it should be published by now, though I haven't tried to track it down yet. It might have some useful information for you Thiago, if you can get it.
Gary
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2002
- Messages
- 359
Hello !
Thanks for the link Ed. You should pass it on to the scorpionfans list also. Thiago, you are indeed in a location many of us would like to visit. Be careful with the Tityus in your possession.
cheers,
Sinc. Chad
Thanks for the link Ed. You should pass it on to the scorpionfans list also. Thiago, you are indeed in a location many of us would like to visit. Be careful with the Tityus in your possession.
cheers,
Sinc. Chad
- Joined
- May 22, 2003
- Messages
- 112
Thanks Gary!
I'll try picking it as soon as possible!
Chad, thanks for the advice and I confess that living in Brazil is an amazing experience! Thanks for the admiration!
Cheers
Thiago Massa.
I'll try picking it as soon as possible!
Chad, thanks for the advice and I confess that living in Brazil is an amazing experience! Thanks for the admiration!
Cheers
Thiago Massa.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 707
Chris and John both,
You guys took the words right outa my head before I even thought them. Well stated.
Massa,
As always, I'll do anything I can to assist you, as will pretty much anybody on this board. All you ever need to do is ask. You have my E-mail addy and if anyone else would like to have it, I'll be more than happy to let you know what it is.
I am a keeper of the "Catalog of the Scorpions of the World" for reference to anyone who I may be able to assist with that reference book. I also have some leads on some pretty good sites, including one (which either the toxin resource site was quoted by the includor of 40 Tityus sp from Brazil, or they were quoting the Catalog), which contains most, if not all species ([I haven't had the opportunity to research through the entire species list to make sure it is complete, which I'm sure you all understand]). The locations they are native to is also included and species can be researched by family, genus, species, native location, etc., on the site. Just ask.
adios,
edw.
PS: There have been two more Tityus species discovered this year (2003), though I have been unable to locate their names and taxa. They both come from Brazil, bringing the list of Tityus of Brazil to a total of 42. LOURENÇO, W.R. & A. PÉZIER.
- Joined
- May 22, 2003
- Messages
- 112
Thanks Edward for all your assistence! You were the first from the boards I made contact and since there you've always been too much helpfull and kind. Thanks again!
Well, so I'll start again asking you!
Yesterday night, about 4:00 AM, I've seen the mother T. serrulatus secreting a viscous tranparent liquid from the end of her metassoma and passing it all over her body. She was upholded on the 4 legs from the left side, and 1 leg from the right side. A little higer from the groud so the babies stayed in her abdomen, and was using the other 3 legs from the right side and the chelas to spread the liquid all over the body. Then, she was kind of "licking" with the chelicerae the chelas that were wet with the liquid. She used the metassoma to apply the liquid were she wanted and then spread with the legs and chelas.
What was she doing?
Thiago Massa.
Well, so I'll start again asking you!
Yesterday night, about 4:00 AM, I've seen the mother T. serrulatus secreting a viscous tranparent liquid from the end of her metassoma and passing it all over her body. She was upholded on the 4 legs from the left side, and 1 leg from the right side. A little higer from the groud so the babies stayed in her abdomen, and was using the other 3 legs from the right side and the chelas to spread the liquid all over the body. Then, she was kind of "licking" with the chelicerae the chelas that were wet with the liquid. She used the metassoma to apply the liquid were she wanted and then spread with the legs and chelas.
What was she doing?
Thiago Massa.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 707
They apparently use this method to clean themselves. Most often, you will see this occurance after a meal but sometimes a scorpion can be seen doing this while in their water dish (depending on species, of course) or just hanging out. I would suppose it is their method of making sure they do not attract ants and other such predators that would attempt to make them a meal.
adios,
edw.
adios,
edw.