Thery're at it again! PLEASE READ

[sean-820]

There is NO reason any of those species should be on that list. You may not mind but many people keep, care for, breed, and sell these species.

You don't make a ton of money in the reptile hobby and pretty much all vendors and breeders have a full time job anyways so its not like your leaving them jobless. Many people may cere for these species, but many more neglect them as few people can properly care for such large snakes

 

[Kaimetsu]

You don't make a ton of money in the reptile hobby and pretty much all vendors and breeders have a full time job anyways so its not like your leaving them jobless. Many people may cere for these species, but many more neglect them as few people can properly care for such large snakes

I'd be willing to bet that a greater percent of dogs and cats in this country are neglected, abused, and improperly cared for than are large snakes, but no one wants to ban dogs and cats, well except for the more insane individuals within groups like peta and the HSUS. The nut jobs in these groups will never be able to ban cats and dogs, because they are mainstream pets. Just because some pet owners are irresponsible and unable to care for their pets does not mean that those pet owners who are responsible should be punished for it, and prevented from living with the animals that they love and care for. Those who abuse and neglect large pet snakes should be punished for it, just as those who abuse and neglect cats and dogs are.

I own a Boa constrictor and as i understand it i will be unable to move out of state with my pet if this legislation passes with Boas added. I would also love to own a Reticulated python oneday, i am passionate about large boids and pythons but i won't get one until i am certain that i can provide for it adequately. It would be unfortunate if i am unable to do so once i am ready to take care of it, because of this legislation.

PitBullLady is passionate about this topic, thats for sure, but that isnt the same as being a fanatic. I have never seen her present an argument without backing it up with facts and sources.

I have yet to hear any reasonable argument for banning responsible pet owners from caring for these wonderful animals. I'm gonna list the three arguments against keeping large pets that i have heard.

1. It is difficult or impossible to adequately house a huge snake and provide quality of life to said snake.

This is the strongest argument that i have heard, I'm sure there are plenty of irresponsible pet owners who do not provide their large snakes with enough space, or who buy huge snakes as babies without being prepared for their huge snake and end up giving away or releasing it. Again as i said earlier tons of dogs and cats are abused and neglected every year, but this isnt an argument against allowing responsible pet owners who can provide for them from living with them.

2. Huge snakes and other exotic pets are a serious danger to the ecology of North America, as irresponsible pet owners often release their pets, the Florida everglades is already infested with ecologically damaging burmese pythons and they may spread to the rest of the country.

This argument is as far as i've been able to tell completely wrong. The burmese pythons in the Florida everglades are descended from snakes that escaped a breeding facility in the early '90s because of a hurricane, someone else should be able to provide a source on this. Also the claim that burmese pythons could spread out of florida is ridiculous, it's been proven than the rest of the country is too cold and dry for burmese pythons to survive. Even in the everglades they just had an unusually cold winter that killed many pythons. Cats are far more ecologically harmful than large snakes, a big snake will kill maybe 10 rodents a year, an outdoor or feral cat would probably kill several animals a day, yet no one wants to ban cats.

3. Huge pet snakes are dangerous to people.

Since 1980 something like 10 people in America have been killed by large pet snakes, and some of these incidents are dubious or are the result of poor husbandry and stupid owners. Compare this to the something like 40 people who are killed by pet dogs every year. Granted far more people own dogs than own large snakes, but i've heard that the number of large snake owners in America is close to a million, if large snakes were really dangerous we would see far more fatalities. The most recent case i have heard of of someone being killed by a large snake was the 3 year old supposedly killed by a pet burmese python. The truth of this story is that among other things the childs parents were drug dealers and addicts, and they routinely allowed their python to get out. The snake was malnourished and mistreated, and i find it unlikely that the snake could have stranged the child. It is my suspicion that one of the parents strangled their child, then blamed it on the snake by throwing the snake into the childs crib and stabbing it to death.

Sorry for rambling so much but i am passionate about this topic.

 

[Dyn]

" 1. It is difficult or impossible to adequately house a huge snake and provide quality of life to said snake.

This is the strongest argument that i have heard, I'm sure there are plenty of irresponsible pet owners who do not provide their large snakes with enough space, or who buy huge snakes as babies without being prepared for their huge snake and end up giving away or releasing it. Again as i said earlier tons of dogs and cats are abused and neglected every year, but this isnt an argument against allowing responsible pet owners who can provide for them from living with them. "


I wouldnt say that housing a large snake is very difficult at all. There are plenty of cage manufacturers that have 6x3 and 8x3 cages which is plenty of room for a 18-24 foot snake which most dont get bigger than that anyway. Boamaster has a 10x4 cage as well. It is more expensive but not very difficult and not even close to impossible.

 

[pitbulllady]

You don't make a ton of money in the reptile hobby and pretty much all vendors and breeders have a full time job anyways so its not like your leaving them jobless. Many people may cere for these species, but many more neglect them as few people can properly care for such large snakes

Epic FAIL, Sean, and both Dyn and Kaimetsu have covered the reasons WHY your desire to take away MY friggin' rights, along with those of millions(yes, dude, you read that correctly-MILLIONS)of other Americans, just because you are scared of or don't like something.

I would have to assume that you are pretty hard-core AR, since you're not only in favor of taking away MY animals, but even FISH...other than the ones YOU have, of course.

Now, as to your argument that banning these animals for "ethical reasons" will not have any economic impact, because in your obviously well-researched claim, reptile breeders don't make any money off of them and they all have other jobs, anyway, think again, and make sure you read THIS: http://www.usark.org/uploads/Economic OMB Testimony.pdf
. You see, it's not just the people who breed and sell these animals, which for many of them IS their job, but the "support industries"-the rodent breeders, the manufacturers of cages and housing, the businesses that sell other supplies like Provent-A-Mite, the venues which host reptile shows, etc.-all of which depend in no small part on people who own and/or breed large snakes to keep their own businesses afloat. To you it is "unethical"(gee, where have I heard that "ethical" thing before...could it be....OH, yeah, "People For the ETHICAL Treatment of Animals"....yeah, right)to own, keep, breed and sell large snakes because SOME people don't care for the properly or get them for the wrong reasons(just like many people do with cats, dogs or horses...or kids), yet you have no "ethical" issues with putting hundreds of thousands of dedicated people out of work and destroying their livelihoods, not to mention eliminated a really big chunk of money from the economy in a RECESSION-yeah, really "ethical" there, NOT! Your solution, just like PETA's and HSUS's, is that the only way to prevent possibly abuse of an animal is to ban it, confiscate it, and kill it, all because of what MIGHT happen to it somewhere down the line.

pitbulllady

 

[sean-820]

I'd be willing to bet that a greater percent of dogs and cats in this country are neglected, abused, and improperly cared for than are large snakes, but no one wants to ban dogs and cats, well except for the more insane individuals within groups like peta and the HSUS. One step at a time. I doubt cats and dogs will ever be banned, but i think large animals like caimens and some monitors should be as very few can keep a 6ft+ reptile The nut jobs in these groups will never be able to ban cats and dogs, because they are mainstream pets. Just because some pet owners are irresponsible and unable to care for their pets does not mean that those pet owners who are responsible should be punished for it, and prevented from living with the animals that they love and care for. Those who abuse and neglect large pet snakes should be punished for it, just as those who abuse and neglect cats and dogs are. Yes but there are no real organizations that even enforce anything to do with reptiles or fish. Im not totally opposed to these large snakes being kept as pets, but i think they should at least require a permit so people dont do an impulse buy and get a retic python from a lps who probably says a 55g tank will be fine for life.

I own a Boa constrictor and as i understand it i will be unable to move out of state with my pet if this legislation passes with Boas added. I would also love to own a Reticulated python oneday, i am passionate about large boids and pythons but i won't get one until i am certain that i can provide for it adequately. I am fine with hobbiest like you, but the majority do impulse buys before even knowing anythign about it.It would be unfortunate if i am unable to do so once i am ready to take care of it, because of this legislation.

PitBullLady is passionate about this topic, thats for sure, but that isnt the same as being a fanatic. I have never seen her present an argument without backing it up with facts and sources.

I have yet to hear any reasonable argument for banning responsible pet owners from caring for these wonderful animals. I'm gonna list the three arguments against keeping large pets that i have heard.

1. It is difficult or impossible to adequately house a huge snake and provide quality of life to said snake.

This is the strongest argument that i have heard, I'm sure there are plenty of irresponsible pet owners who do not provide their large snakes with enough space, or who buy huge snakes as babies without being prepared for their huge snake and end up giving away or releasing it. Again as i said earlier tons of dogs and cats are abused and neglected every year, but this isnt an argument against allowing responsible pet owners who can provide for them from living with them.Guns are banned in many counties becasue a small group may kill with them while everybody else may just do target practice for fun. One can easily ruin it for many. I know many people on this site provide well for their animals, but many more are neglected especially the animals with more demands like 16ft pythons

2. Huge snakes and other exotic pets are a serious danger to the ecology of North America, as irresponsible pet owners often release their pets, the Florida everglades is already infested with ecologically damaging burmese pythons and they may spread to the rest of the country.In some cases yes, but generally no. In canada i know tropical snakes wont survive the winter same with most non native fish released into our waters

This argument is as far as i've been able to tell completely wrong. The burmese pythons in the Florida everglades are descended from snakes that escaped a breeding facility in the early '90s because of a hurricane, someone else should be able to provide a source on this. Also the claim that burmese pythons could spread out of florida is ridiculous, it's been proven than the rest of the country is too cold and dry for burmese pythons to survive. Even in the everglades they just had an unusually cold winter that killed many pythons. Cats are far more ecologically harmful than large snakes, a big snake will kill maybe 10 rodents a year, an outdoor or feral cat would probably kill several animals a day, yet no one wants to ban cats.

3. Huge pet snakes are dangerous to people.

Since 1980 something like 10 people in America have been killed by large pet snakes, and some of these incidents are dubious or are the result of poor husbandry and stupid owners. Honestly i dont overly care if a large animal kills a person. Im sure i would care more if i knew the person, but peopel need to realize many animals one on one can kill humans easily. 10 humans may be killed a year by snakes, but im sure millions of snakes wil lbe killed by humans Compare this to the something like 40 people who are killed by pet dogs every year. Granted far more people own dogs than own large snakes, but i've heard that the number of large snake owners in America is close to a million, if large snakes were really dangerous we would see far more fatalities. The most recent case i have heard of of someone being killed by a large snake was the 3 year old supposedly killed by a pet burmese python. The truth of this story is that among other things the childs parents were drug dealers and addicts, and they routinely allowed their python to get out. Exactly the mistreatment of snakes that i was referring to The snake was malnourished and mistreated, and i find it unlikely that the snake could have stranged the child. It is my suspicion that one of the parents strangled their child, then blamed it on the snake by throwing the snake into the childs crib and stabbing it to death.

Sorry for rambling so much but i am passionate about this topic.

...............

 

[sean-820]

" 1. It is difficult or impossible to adequately house a huge snake and provide quality of life to said snake.

This is the strongest argument that i have heard, I'm sure there are plenty of irresponsible pet owners who do not provide their large snakes with enough space, or who buy huge snakes as babies without being prepared for their huge snake and end up giving away or releasing it. Again as i said earlier tons of dogs and cats are abused and neglected every year, but this isnt an argument against allowing responsible pet owners who can provide for them from living with them. "


I wouldnt say that housing a large snake is very difficult at all. There are plenty of cage manufacturers that have 6x3 and 8x3 cages which is plenty of room for a 18-24 foot snake which most dont get bigger than that anyway. Boamaster has a 10x4 cage as well. It is more expensive but not very difficult and not even close to impossible.

For actual hobbiests its easy. For noobs that know nothign about a large snake its not so easy and not many people want to spend the $ for feeding, housing, heating... for an animal that they keep for more of a shock factor rather then a pet

 

[sean-820]

Epic FAIL, Sean,I fail to see how they have with a dobut proved me wrong. Kaimetsu said my point was also the strongest. The weaker reasons were not mine anyways. and both Dyn and Kaimetsu have covered the reasons WHY your desire to take away MY friggin' rights, along with those of millions(yes, dude, you read that correctly-MILLIONS)of other Americans, just because you are scared of or don't like something. How am i scared? If anything im afraid for some 6ft caimens well being as it lives a life of neglect. But whatever maybe 1 in 10000 will get an adequet setup in a zoo or by soem serious hobbiest. I have no problems with the snakes themselves, its with the irresposible keepers. IMO large snakes should be left in the wild or in zoos that can care for them. If a normal hobbiest wants one like i said before, i would be fien if people could get one with a permit, but i dont think lps should be selling baby snakes of species known to excees 15ft to just anybody with the money

I would have to assume that you are pretty hard-core AR, since you're not only in favor of taking away MY animals, but even FISH...other than the ones YOU have, of course. I also keep fish. Piranhas actually. I know many people cant keep 12" fish let alone 3ft fish. Not many people can buy a 500g aquarium or a pond for them. Did you know petsmart sells pacus for around 7$ and on their care card they have some species that gets only 12" and can live in a 30g tank? I wish this was true, but it isnt. A pacu and other large fish arnt fit for the care of many mere hobbiests as they cant be properly carred for. I know some guys in the fish community that keep pacus in ponds and one in a 500g tank, but many will die in 10g tanks as people were ignorant and had no idea that the cute 3" pacu wont stay 3" for long.

Now, as to your argument that banning these animals for "ethical reasons" will not have any economic impact, because in your obviously well-researched claim, reptile breeders don't make any money off of them and they all have other jobs, anyway, think again, and make sure you read THIS: http://www.usark.org/uploads/Economic OMB Testimony.pdf
. You see, it's not just the people who breed and sell these animals, which for many of them IS their job, but the "support industries"-the rodent breeders, the manufacturers of cages and housing, the businesses that sell other supplies like Provent-A-Mite, Do you even read what im saying. Im not saying ban the industry, im saying ban or do by permit only snakes larger then boas. That still leaves a ton of snakes in the industry. What do you lose retics, burms and anacondas? It will efect the people who sell the snakes primarily. Some people who sell cages and rodents still have other markets to sell to though i will admit they may have a bit less to sell to. The majority of reptile breeders usually have secondary jobs unless they have their own store. In that case they will generally have other animals for sale to as well as high quality animals for zoos. Your talking like a ban would cripple the economy but a country isnt going to go bankrupt bacasue some large snakes are banned. the venues which host reptile shows, etc.-all of which depend in no small part on people who own and/or breed large snakes to keep their own businesses afloat.So your saying reptile shows would go under if there are no large snakes? So they don't also have tables of bearded dragons, geckos, inverts, smaller snakes, mayby even fish an mammals... At least around me potentially large snakes are the minority at reptile shows. there are many more ball pythons and bearded dragons then anything else To you it is "unethical"(gee, where have I heard that "ethical" thing before...could it be....OH, yeah, "People For the ETHICAL Treatment of Animals"....yeah, right)to own, keep, breed and sell large snakes because SOME people don't care for the properly or get them for the wrong reasons(just like many people do with cats, dogs or horses...or kids), yet you have no "ethical" issues with putting hundreds of thousands of dedicated people out of work and destroying their livelihoods, not to mention eliminated a really big chunk of money from the economy in a RECESSION-yeah, really "ethical" there, NOT! I see what you did there. lolYour solution, just like PETA's and HSUS's, is that the only way to prevent possibly abuse of an animal is to ban it, confiscate it, and kill it, all because of what MIGHT happen to it somewhere down the line. I have never been saying just ban, ive been saying either ban it or get some regulation on who is beign sold to through permits or something. It will prevent impulse buys and weed out any noobs who just want a 10ft plus snkae to be cool.

pitbulllady

................

 

[sean-820]

Now, as to your argument that banning these animals for "ethical reasons" will not have any economic impact, because in your obviously well-researched claim, reptile breeders don't make any money off of them and they all have other jobs, anyway, think again, and make sure you read THIS: http://www.usark.org/uploads/Economic OMB Testimony.pdf
. You see, it's not just the people who breed and sell these animals, which for many of them IS their job, but the "support industries"-the rodent breeders, the manufacturers of cages and housing, the businesses that sell other supplies like Provent-A-Mite, the venues which host reptile shows, etc.-all of which depend in no small part on people who own and/or breed large snakes to keep their own businesses afloat.

In responce to this you can use this defence for any banning. For any industry there are people who make a living from it. So if I made some new drug to sell to kids you wouldnt want to shut me down becasue my employees would lose their jobs? Every ban will effect some group of people either directly or indirectly.

 

[the toe cutter]

You know sean, I see where you are comin from, I myself feel that rule #1 in owning reptiles, is the housing issue! I go with the rule that the cage atleast needs to be big enough for the animal to stretch completely out in, so 16ft snake= 16ft cage! I have also seen teenage kids buy burms, retics, anacondas, scrubs and rock pythons just because they have the money to do so from pet stores. It is irresponsible and unethical not to mention the harm that WILL come to the animal. But banning a group of animals all together, even though possibly justifiable, will give certain groups a foot hold for future ammendments. I have never owned a large constrictor, but I have owned and still own quite a few venomous reptiles. And I could not see anyone taking my venomous reptiles from me, but it could happen if things like this aren't stopped. Have you heard the expression give them an inch and they take a mile? We have to stop this crap so that NO foothold might happen that could be a catalyst for other animals being banned. I DO VERY FIRMLY BELIEVE that like most states and venomous reptiles, you should need a permit to own large constrictors. It would be the best "safety net" for large constrictor owners/breeders and for the entire reptile industry. Permits are not that difficult to get! So there is really NO REASONABLE argument in opposition to that. I would not sell any venomous to anyone without experience or under the age of 18 even if the state didn't require it, you have to cover your ass! Plus permits are usually paid to the Dept of Nat resources of your state and would help upkeep of some of your favorite state and National parks. Win win for everyone.

 

[Dyn]

For actual hobbiests its easy. For noobs that know nothign about a large snake its not so easy and not many people want to spend the $ for feeding, housing, heating...

You can insert ANY animal into that. So I dont really find that to be a very good arguement either way.



"I go with the rule that the cage atleast needs to be big enough for the animal to stretch completely out in, so 16ft snake= 16ft cage!"

Thats a good rule if you have the room... but they dont really need that much space. I can check my cages 20 or 30 times a day and both of my retics a 10-11fter and a 7fter and they are almost ways in the same spot coiled up. They might move to the warm side from the cool side every now and again but really they arent that active to need full room sized cage. Especially when you take them out anyway.

I dont know about a permit system. Perhaps adding them to usda regulations like exotic mammals. like this http://www.petsugargliders.com/usda/7020.pdf and possibly some kind of waiver explaining how big the snakes get and all of that.

That why we dont need to do a permit system and larger snakes are added to this. Then only usda facilities can breed and sell them. They will are checked by inspectors and if you lose your license you can sell or breed which will keep snakes in good conditions at the breeders and they have records of who bought what kinds of snakes and they can possibly be checked up on.

 

[sean-820]

You know sean, I see where you are comin from, I myself feel that rule #1 in owning reptiles, is the housing issue! I go with the rule that the cage atleast needs to be big enough for the animal to stretch completely out in, so 16ft snake= 16ft cage! Though i think a permit would be good for snakes, i especially think its needed for things like caimens as a dwarf caimen isnt that dwarf and will need a large pond of pool. The nature of snakes means a 16ft snake doesnt need a ton of room, but many people wouldn't even do a 8ft tankI have also seen teenage kids buy burms, retics, anacondas, scrubs and rock pythons just because they have the money to do so from pet stores. It is irresponsible and unethical not to mention the harm that WILL come to the animal. But banning a group of animals all together, even though possibly justifiable, will give certain groups a foot hold for future ammendments. I have never owned a large constrictor, but I have owned and still own quite a few venomous reptiles. And I could not see anyone taking my venomous reptiles from me, but it could happen if things like this aren't stopped.I do agree with you on this, but as of now things are either legal or illigal and anything legal has no real regulations or enfocement. Like i said already i keep piranhas and in many states in the usa they are illigal for no good reason so i know where you guys are coming from. The problems i see with the law are some thigns are illigal that shoudlnt be while others like caimens, large monitors and 16ft snakes have no regulations on them and selling them to minors is just up to the vendors themselves Have you heard the expression give them an inch and they take a mile? We have to stop this crap so that NO foothold might happen that could be a catalyst for other animals being banned. I DO VERY FIRMLY BELIEVE that like most states and venomous reptiles, you should need a permit to own large constrictors. It would be the best "safety net" for large constrictor owners/breeders and for the entire reptile industry. Permits are not that difficult to get! I agree there should be some regulation especially for hots. Liek i just said the laws are stupid. The govenment is tried to ban all pythons and boas including small 2 ft sand boas, but the govenrment doesnt seem to bother with trying to regulate things like lethal scorpions or hots other then mayby on a state wide or city to city levelSo there is really NO REASONABLE argument in opposition to that. I would not sell any venomous to anyone without experience or under the age of 18 even if the state didn't require it, you have to cover your ass! Plus permits are usually paid to the Dept of Nat resources of your state and would help upkeep of some of your favorite state and National parks. Win win for everyone.

I should also mention i am Canadian so this wouldnt effect me directly, but it would still effect me indirectly. Not too long ago i was at an expo and i overhead a guy talking about having a caimen (not sure if dwarf or not though dwarfs still get huge) that got out and thrashed up his house. I remember him whining about it ruining his life and things like this. Point is irrisponsible keepers can get large and potentially dangerous animals way to easy.

 

[the toe cutter]

Dyn, if you don't have the room don't get the animal! I'm sure in the wild that they dont cram themselves into 6 foot boxes, and I am also sure that you probably dont care anyway! And I wouldnt move much either if I was put into a box half my size.

And there DEFINATELY needs to be a permit system. Permit systems are implemented in many US states for hots, and the USDA has nothing to do with captive breeding hots, so that point is completely bogus. And I also believe, as I stated in the myriapods section here, that there does need to be regulations implemented on the invert industry as well concerning hots, and I believe Fla has something like that already. It is simple protection for the entire reptile industry from irresponsible pet owners who don't know what they are getting themselves into. Its a simple checks and balances system with insurance! I firmly believe that the issues in Fla and a few deaths could well have been diverted and these mass bans never an issue in the first place if regulations were put into place to protect the hobby! Permits, possibly a tagging system inserted into reptiles for owner identification like they do for other house pets, would not only get these people off our backs, but also ensure someone was VERY serious and completely understood the care and housing requirements needed for the animals welfare and our hobby. Its pretty cut and dry. PIT tags have been used for finding the location of certain wild snakes for study and observation for years. It is completely feasible to require the same be done for these particular animals just in case they escape or someone lets one go into the wild! Its our responsibility to protect our hobby and be adults here and take measures that keep the public and certain groups off our backs within reason. If you dont have the money to take your animal to the vet to get micro-chipped, you obviously don't have the financial means to care for that animal anyway, so money is not even an issue there. If you dont have the time or money to get a permit, then you cannot possibly spend the time and money required it takes to have one of these animals! We have to be smart about this and not just act like children here and think that saying no repeatedly(parents out there know what I am talking about lol) will stop these ridiculous laws. If we protect ourselves with a few simple regulations, they will have no reason to screw with us. Plain and simple most of life is a comprimise, so you are either gonna kick and scream and throw a fit and never been seen as rational pet owners, or be proactive and comprimise and get these people off of our backs. If we don't fix the issue, they will! And I'm pretty sure no one here wants that.

 

[Dyn]

Dyn, if you don't have the room don't get the animal! I'm sure in the wild that they dont cram themselves into 6 foot boxes, and I am also sure that you probably dont care anyway! And I wouldnt move much either if I was put into a box half my size.

Then you might as well ban all snakes because most people arent going to have 5-6 foot cages for balls, kingsnakes, or small boas let alone a retic burm or scrub python. My 7 foot retic curls up in a spot probably 6" x 12" and hes in a 4' x 2' cage I seriously doubt hes cramped at all.

The standard accepted caging requirements for most snakes is 1 squarefoot per foot of snake. Usually in half their length by a quarter length is standard. 3x2 for 6 foot snakes and 4x2 for 8 footers. I'm going with 6x3 (good for up to 18 feet) caging for snakes I have male retics which usually top out at 16 foot max and scrubs that again most likely wont even get 16 let alone over that.

How wide would your 16 foot cage be? 16 foot as well? wouldnt want them to get too cramped when they are turning around.

 

[pitbulllady]

Dyn, if you don't have the room don't get the animal! I'm sure in the wild that they dont cram themselves into 6 foot boxes, and I am also sure that you probably dont care anyway! And I wouldnt move much either if I was put into a box half my size.

And there DEFINATELY needs to be a permit system. Permit systems are implemented in many US states for hots, and the USDA has nothing to do with captive breeding hots, so that point is completely bogus. And I also believe, as I stated in the myriapods section here, that there does need to be regulations implemented on the invert industry as well concerning hots, and I believe Fla has something like that already. It is simple protection for the entire reptile industry from irresponsible pet owners who don't know what they are getting themselves into. Its a simple checks and balances system with insurance! I firmly believe that the issues in Fla and a few deaths could well have been diverted and these mass bans never an issue in the first place if regulations were put into place to protect the hobby! Permits, possibly a tagging system inserted into reptiles for owner identification like they do for other house pets, would not only get these people off our backs, but also ensure someone was VERY serious and completely understood the care and housing requirements needed for the animals welfare and our hobby. Its pretty cut and dry. PIT tags have been used for finding the location of certain wild snakes for study and observation for years. It is completely feasible to require the same be done for these particular animals just in case they escape or someone lets one go into the wild! Its our responsibility to protect our hobby and be adults here and take measures that keep the public and certain groups off our backs within reason. If you dont have the money to take your animal to the vet to get micro-chipped, you obviously don't have the financial means to care for that animal anyway, so money is not even an issue there. If you dont have the time or money to get a permit, then you cannot possibly spend the time and money required it takes to have one of these animals! We have to be smart about this and not just act like children here and think that saying no repeatedly(parents out there know what I am talking about lol) will stop these ridiculous laws. If we protect ourselves with a few simple regulations, they will have no reason to screw with us. Plain and simple most of life is a comprimise, so you are either gonna kick and scream and throw a fit and never been seen as rational pet owners, or be proactive and comprimise and get these people off of our backs. If we don't fix the issue, they will! And I'm pretty sure no one here wants that.

Actually, the situation with the Burms in the 'Glades has already pretty much been proven NOT to have resulted from the "irresponsible owners dumping unwanted pets when they got too big", as 99% of the captured Burms have virtually identical DNA and are all closely related, something that could only have happened if the original snakes all came from a single source. This would not be possible if that population resulted from many different snakes, from different genetic backgrounds, being released over a period of several years or decades. That is a myth that is being spread and used by the AR's to further their cause and gain the needed support of politicians. As for the death of the child in FL(which experienced snake owners still highly doubt was caused by the animal at all), this took place AFTER Florida had already imposed their "Reptiles Of Concern" permit system, and the owner of that snake, a convicted drug dealer with a criminal rap sheet a country mile long, did not have a permit to have the snake in the first place(like he would be concerned with that, anyway-what's one more law to break, after all).

If we need a permit system to own large constricting snakes, do we also need permits to own other potentially dangerous animals, especially those which have demonstrated a far GREATER potential to harm or kill people than these snakes have? Which animals would you propose having a permit for? Dogs over what weight? Horses? Cattle? Sheep and goats? All of them have killed more people than constricting snakes have, and yes, that DOES include sheep and goats! Who is to decide who should get a permit and who is denied, and based on what criteria? The HSUS? The lawmakers? Other large snake/dog/horse/cattle/sheep/goat/pig/etc./etc. owners? PETA? Some state agency? Should the US or each state create additional bureaucracies just to oversee permits to own virtually every single kind of animal on the planet, because they have some potential to hurt us?

Also, are you aware the PIT tags have, in many species, been linked to a growing number of serious animal health issues, especially several forms of cancers? Has it ever occurred to anyone that if a sweeping ban on animals is put into place once the mandatory PIT tag laws were past, it would be an easy task to simply look up who has what animals, and go through with massive animal seizures? IN a rare situation like FL, they can prove useful in actually tracking the criminal act of abandoning such an animal(and the AR's love to do this, to draw attention to their cause; many of the more recent large snake "finds" in FL were most likely "planted" animals, as they were very tame, had no scars or other indicators of animals that had been living in the wild), but this is a double-edged sword which is more likely to result in a useful tool for finding out exactly who has banned animals and taking them away, whether those animals are snakes, dogs, whatever.

One of the biggest problems I have with anyone who claims to be an animal keeper, etc. is that most only see their little corner of the universe and honestly don't give a rat's you-know-what about other animal owners, breeders, sellers, etc. They are all for passing laws to take away MY animals, and kill them, and they don't want ME to be happy, but God forbid anyone come after the animals that THEY choose to own! They are so eager to throw ME and MY animals under that proverbial bus, but should the AR's come knocking on THEIR door, they will naturally expect me to stand up and fight for THEM. They want MY animals dead and banned and they are naive(or just plain stupid...yeah, I said STUPID)enough to believe that "it will never happen to me; the AR's will never try to ban MY animals, so I don't have anything to worry about". That's exactly what all the breeders of little "foo-foo" dogs in Ohio thought when the state implemented their "Vicious Dog" law declaring ALL "pit bulls and dogs of pit bull type" to be vicious by default, and many cities in Ohio banned those dogs outright. The owners of the foo-foo breeds were happy to see those "monsters" gone, and they knew that of course, their dogs were safe. NOW, part of Gov. Strickland's deal with the Devil(Wayne Pacelli)is to put into effect an executive order under which MOST dog breeders in Ohio would be considered "puppy mills" and would not only be forced to stop breeding and selling dogs, but could face confiscation of their animals under policies put into effect by people who do not own dogs, do not breed dogs, do not WANT anyone to own or breed dogs. The proverbial shoe is now on that other foot, so to speak, but if you anger and alienate the people most likely to help you stick up for your animals by helping the AR's get rid of those people's animals, who is going to stand up for YOU when that inevitable payback comes around?

pitbulllady

 

[the toe cutter]

#1 1sq ft per ft is reasonable, but I have personally seen 16-18ft retics in 4'x2'x18" enclosures by quite a few people including a few breeders, whom I wont mention. Human failure again, my entire point on that.

#2 PIT tags were used as an example, micro chipped methods that would be more condusive to reptile physiology is what I was talking about there. And I have seen water snakes with fish bones sticking out of their sides, so I dont think that would really be much of a health issu! for some anyway lol!

#3 A Permit system like most states already have for exotic venomous reptiles, does not restrict whom can own venomous animals, the only criteria you must meet is to be 18yrs of age, and been educated in the handling and care of hots. And many places like glades herp, for example, down in Fl have apprenticeship programs that teach you how to properly care for them and you can get your state license. None of this is new here?! PETA, or HSUS or USDA have nothing to do with that! So none of you has even a hint of a good point against that.

And on another note, deer are the most hazardous animals living today to human beings in North America. These silly fears some of you have about the HSUS and PETA coming to your home and kicking your door in to take your animals and then immediately take them and kill them is ridiculous. If we properly protect ourselves by passing OUR OWN regulatory standards we would not have these problems. And if you know anything about genetics, there is no real, non-guessing difference genetically from any one species to one of the same species?! We are 96% genetically identical to house flies and 98.9% identical to chimps? From a burmese from its most western natural geographic range to its most eastern, is so alike we cannot yet tell the slightest difference. So that point about they all may have came from just a few is not a well founded argument. I love reptiles and have been in the hobby for over 20 years and breeding for over a dozen. I have kept just about every kind of Asian, African and American type of snake on the market including a number of venomous every once in a while except for large constrictors. I have caught snakes and kept them since I was about 6 years old, and read every piece of literature about their habits and evolution that I could get. And no other reptile has had this kind of attention before, and if we don't do something pro-active about it and make our own regulations someone else less desireable will. That is my point, we have to police up ourselves. Its not that the HSUS or PETA are targeting ALL snakes, because there is no real issue with the other ones that has been brought to such a serious light as to require a ban. I am not saying they wont in the future if the rules that they want are installed, I'm saying because of irresponsible PEOPLE/OWNERS our beloved pets are now being scrutinized by the govt. If they were regulated in the first place, this would never have an issue of its current magnitude and more than ikely swept under the rug. Irresponsible exotic pet owners GAVE them the fire to try and burn down our hobby! And you cannot argue against that, its the absolute truth. So in essence, we did this to ourselves by not imposing regulations on ownership qualifications of large constrictors. Do you hear any venomous reptile owners/breeders under so much scrutiny, I didn't see any venomous on the list so I will say probably not! Even with the Animal Planet special on invasive species special that claimed within 10 years there will be wild rampant king cobras running around all over the south east they are not under as much scrutiny as the large constrictor debate all because of a few simple regulations. And most hots out there are far more dangerous to us. They are protecting their hobby, why can't large constrictor owners pull their heads out of their @#$ stop whining like children and do the same? Comprimise is a part of life, so you might wanna get used to it before there is no ledge left to support a comprimise and we lose everything! I don't own large constrictors, but I think that they are awesome animals and do rightfully have a large place here in our hobby, and that it should stay that way! But we have to be smart here and protect OUR hobby from people who wish to see it gone all together and stop selling retics and like animals to children or people who do not understand nor have the ability to care for them. We have to cut the fat, and we have alot of it I'm afraid! Thats why permits are a completely viable proponent to get what everyone wants, well minus the HSUS and PETA lol, a safe and happy future for ALL REPTILES, owners and all of the growing number of businesses that depend on the reptile trade.

 

[the toe cutter]

PBL, I have had many completely wild caught animals before from all over the world with no scars either. So that is not a good way at all to determine if something is wild.

 

[Dyn]

I'm glad you see how ridiculous a foot of cage per foot of snake is. It's completely unreasonable. Yes some people cram really large snakes into really small cages. I've also just read about someone doing that and breeding a 14 or 15 foot female scrub in a 4x2 cage so she couldnt have been THAT uncomfortable with it. I dont agree with that but for it to be feeding and breeding the snake had to have been comfortable. Like I said though I'm going 6x3 caging for my snakes 12-18 feet and if they get 20 or more I'll get some 8x3 caging.


Honestly permits and bans are really only going to keep responsible owners from keeping these animals.

The people who are not caring for these animals properly and releasing them are probably still going to keep/breed and abuse them. So this really wont solve anything. See the drug war for reference.

 

[the toe cutter]

Breeding in a small container doesn't mean the animal is comfortable at all! That would just make it easier for the male since he wouldn't have to chase her or pin her down, the cage is doing it for him.

 

[the toe cutter]

And responsible pet owners would not at all be kept from owning the animals they want by getting permits? That doesn't even make any sense? Its joe schmoe that goes to the local pet store and sees an anaconda and says,"man I saw that movie and that would really show my friends that I was a tough guy," and buys a large constrictor on impulse, that has no idea how to properly care or house that animal that either kills it or possibly lets it go by accident or on purpose when it gets too much for him to handle. Zoos and rescue are so overwhelmed with large constrictors that they wont even take them 98% of the time. And reselling an animal of that size is VERY hard to do. Getting the permit would ensure that this would no longer happen to such a large extent simply by having to go through the process of getting a permit. And adding the apprenticeship requirement for a permit would possibly deter such a person when they see what is actually required to care for one. Plus usually an apprenticeship program by local breeders/importers has a small fee involved, and helps that business monitarily. Florida already does this with venomous reptiles. Its kind of like an insurance policy for the whole hobby, if you go through all that trouble and still want the animal and something happens to you or anyone else or the animal is released and recovered all responsibility is no longer on the reptile industry or the people who sold it to you, but on you the owner solely. For those of you who are simply too lazy to get a permit, which you can do online at most state Dept of Nat Resources websites for the ones that require it, then you do not need that animal anyway! I have to have a permit to sell cornsnakes here in VA. and it cost all of 10$ a year and most of that money goes right in with all other state taxes. Its not that big a deal to save these animals from getting banned in my opinion.

 

[Dyn]

It all depends on who gives the permits and who makes the requirements. What if there are no local breeders or importers around? How do you get your apprenticeship completed?