The mesh top debate

[waynerowley]

Hi there,

I'm fairly new to the hobby. When it comes to enclosure design, the one point that has been laboured from many keepers that I have followed and researched is that mesh tops on enclosures are bad, particularly for terrestrial Ts. and particular those found on the Exo Terra enclosures.

There are some keepers though who use a lot of these (I'm thinking particularly of Dave from Dave's Little Beasties) who have experienced no issues at all, and value the mesh top for the degree of control it provides over moisture and humidity levels.

I'm guessing there is no right or wrong with this, that it comes down to keepers' individual experience and needs. I am curious though as to whether Dave is the 'exception to rule' or whether there are many other keepers happily using mesh topped Exo Terras with no issues.

Thanks,
Wayne

 

[ConstantSorrow]

It's playing the odds.
You may use them for all your tarantulas and never have an issue. Or you could have a tarantula die after getting caught in one.
Perhaps people who use them haven't had a problem....yet. But it's a possibility and a risk and it's not one that I (personally) want to take.

 

[Smotzer]

and value the mesh top for the degree of control it provides over moisture and humidity levels.

Well why is he worrying about humidity......? Flag Up. Never watched his videos but if hes talking about humidity on a large platform he is likely, idk havent watched, parroting out old outdated info. Just how you make it sound.

that it comes down to keepers' individual experience and needs. I am curious though as to whether Dave is the 'exception to rule' or whether there are many other keepers happily using mesh topped Exo Terras with no issues.

Not really it comes down to what risk your not willing to take out of the equation for a few extra dollars and a little work. Experience means nothing with risk of mesh, its either going to happen in the mesh at one point or another or not. Just cause they haven't had an issue now doesnt mean they wont. So we here on AB look at it like this, IF there is a possibility for a potentially fatal injury, and it is EASILY avoidable, then we avoid it. Either he doesnt know the risk, or he doesnt seem to find that the risk outweighs the reward to do something about it and prevent it, or he just really doesn't care, Many feel this way. But the experience of situations going wrong has given AB the experience to know that it is a problem that needs to be prevented, quite easily too.

 

[DomGom TheFather]

Not really a debate.
It's a risk.

 

[viper69]

Hi there,

I'm fairly new to the hobby. When it comes to enclosure design, the one point that has been laboured from many keepers that I have followed and researched is that mesh tops on enclosures are bad, particularly for terrestrial Ts. and particular those found on the Exo Terra enclosures.

There are some keepers though who use a lot of these (I'm thinking particularly of Dave from Dave's Little Beasties) who have experienced no issues at all, and value the mesh top for the degree of control it provides over moisture and humidity levels.

I'm guessing there is no right or wrong with this, that it comes down to keepers' individual experience and needs. I am curious though as to whether Dave is the 'exception to rule' or whether there are many other keepers happily using mesh topped Exo Terras with no issues.

Thanks,
Wayne

To me, a debate implies both sides have logical fact-based merit. In this case, there's no debate. Using screen puts your T at RISK, it's a DAMN fact. I know this from experience. Long before ExoTerras were popular for Ts to my knowledge at least, I used them for Ts. In my case I had a A. "metallica" (M6) which turned out to be male.

What did I observe when I came home, my male Avic roaming the tank (natural), then hanging by 1 leg and struggling to free itself (NOT NATURAL to HANG).

So while some people don't replace it, that doesn't mean it's safe.

Like Clint Eastwood said "Do you feel lucky", well my T can't make that choice can it, no, I have to. And I choose a safe route, rather than jeopardize my T. EVEN if they don't don't hang from mesh, why would one provide a surface that they will get stuck on and constantly have to struggle with. HOW IS THAT BEING A GOOD STEWARD OF THE ANIMAL????????????????????????????????????????? It isn't.


Like Nike "Just Do It"

Wayne, if you were a pet human by some giant, and he put you in a car all the time, would you want him to use a car's seat belt and take the risk you may or may not live/get injured???


Like Spike Lee's movie "Do the Right Thing"

case closed.

 

[l4nsky]

Mesh lids are just an all around bad idea for tarantulas:

• T's have been known to go all 8-legged can opener and chew their way through them.
• Their tarsal claws can easily get snagged in them. Stuck leg + the tarantula's weight + the tarantula's struggle + gravity = the possible loss of a limb.
• Mesh lids only help maintain humidity (or lack there of) in dry enclosures. Humid air is less dense (read lighter) then dry air, so a fully ventilated lid dries out an enclosure much, much faster. This is why moisture dependent species require cross ventilation more than top ventilation. It keeps the stable, ambient humidity levels that they require for a longer period of time.

 

[waynerowley]

Thanks everyone, this is all helpful feedback and information.

Wayne

 

[ccTroi]

I am curious though as to whether Dave is the 'exception to rule' or whether there are many other keepers happily using mesh topped Exo Terras with no issues.

I don’t think he’s an exception. The risk is there, and it just so happens he hasn’t had any fatalities or injuries so far. I think it’s good practice to replace mesh tops.

Well why is he worrying about humidity

The great majority of his collection consists of Old World arboreals from humid environments much like the very dedicated keeper, @l4nsky. Additionally, Dave constantly breeds his tarantulas and always have several females he’s conditioning for breeding, females in gestation, females incubating egg sacs, and egg sacs incubated by Dave himself let alone the countless slings he’s raising. His tarantula room is kept in the 80’s and may go up to low 90’s on a very hot summer. According to Dave, the open area of his lids allows him to spike up the humidity by heavily watering. He noted that his enclosures stabilize quickly (in terms of humidity levels) bc of the open area of his lids. He does almost a daily maintenance, nightly checkings, and open his adult enclosures multiple times a week which should ideally lower the humidity at the time before allowing it to rise again. He also has a false bottom that collects excess water from the substrate which he can siphon from anytime should he overwater. Dave stresses that tarantula enclosures shouldn’t be soaked in water (substrate and walls very damp) for a long time but instead keep a cycle of drying and watering. @Smotzer I hope you don’t accuse me again of “buying into everything (I) see on YouTube.... LOL.”

On another note, @l4nsky made a post on another thread that I think is worth pinning. Also, I suggest OP (and everyone, to be frank) reading up on his methodology thread https://arachnoboards.com/threads/l4nskys-methodology.343787/ where he goes in depth on humidity in his enclosures and regulating it.

I really need to make a thread on this. In a nut shell, proper humidity is important (especially for asian species and slings as they are prone to dessication. A higher humidity reduces the T's moisture loss from respiration and/or lack of a waxy cuticle), but you should never measure or pursue a target number. In place of monitoring humidity, you should ensure proper ventilation and monitor soil moisture instead. On the subject of proper soil moisture, this is where you control the ambient humidity directly. Water will evaporate from the soil, maintaining a suitable humidity level. The deeper the substrate, the more water it can hold, and the more stable the humidity will be (this is important for Asians like singapore blues). On its own however, soil moisture can kill a tarantula without proper ventilation. You need to make sure you have both. Unless you continuously drown your tarantula (or it's an Avic species), moisture usually never kills a tarantula with a properly ventilated enclosure. Stagnant, high humidity air and the organisms that thrive in such environments will kill any tarantula everytime however. To safeguard against this, make sure you utilize both cross ventilation and top ventilation (usually in a ratio of 4:1 or greater is what I recommend) and you learn how to visually tell how much moisture is in the soil (this is an acquired skill unfortunately).

 

[l4nsky]

@ccTroi, thanks for the mention sir. It appears that Dave utilizes the fully ventilated lid in a way I didn't imagine. He floods his girls and utilizes the increased top ventilation to quickly return the parameters to normal, but since he maintains a higher temp/rh level in a dedicated room, the enclosures never fall out of the optimum range. Very clever and I can't argue with his results. Humidity is definently a controversial topic on the boards and in the hobby, but it is very important for every genus. Desert tarantulas will die from too humid of an environment as fast as rainforest tarantulas will die from too dry of an environment. As stewards of these animals, we all need to make a concerted effort to understand the needs of our charges and how best to reach/maintain those needs.

 

[waynerowley]

Given that I don’t have the luxury of a T room that I can keep heated to 80F I‘m probably better sticking to the method of keeping the enclosure dry and using a water dish to create the desired humidity with an enclosure with good cross-ventilation. It’s going to be a little while before my c. Versicolor needs moving to an adult enclosure, so if I do go the Exo Terra I’ll replace the mesh with perspex and drill holes. I’m also interested in the Arachnosys enclosures too,

My T is currently kept in the bedroom, and we have an en-suite shower and bathroom which, despite the extractor, does increase the overall humidity of the room. I’m not sure if that is a help or hindrance!

 

[liquidfluidity]

Agreed, it's a gamble. I'm not denying that I don't have any, I have quite a few actually. But I do have a stack of acrylic inserts waiting to be drilled.

As for Dave, I like his charisma, but his information is a little broad. His set ups are very nice and clean looking and his room is nice. He does do a few things I disagree with but this is not about roasting him.

Bottom line, if you have access to the materials, start modifying. There are also people out there 3D printing replacement tops. This is the route I may go and is why I haven't changed more out.

 

[viper69]

Agreed, it's a gamble. I'm not denying that I don't have any, I have quite a few actually. But I do have a stack of acrylic inserts waiting to be drilled.

As for Dave, I like his charisma, but his information is a little broad. His set ups are very nice and clean looking and his room is nice. He does do a few things I disagree with but this is not about roasting him.

Bottom line, if you have access to the materials, start modifying. There are also people out there 3D printing replacement tops. This is the route I may go and is why I haven't changed more out.

3D printing tops specifically for ExoTerra tanks- thanks for this. I jst did a google search.

I found what is called Tinkerframe, the only thing I could not be sure was if the 3D printed grid used for venting would still allow arboreals to get stuck.

 

[l4nsky]

3D printing tops specifically for ExoTerra tanks- thanks for this. I jst did a google search.

I found what is called Tinkerframe, the only thing I could not be sure was if the 3D printed grid used for venting would still allow arboreals to get stuck.

I think that would depend on the hole size as I don't see them getting stuck in the material itself, but then again it's custom made so it should be able to be modified with a bit of experience with a 3D printer. It's a good idea and it just bumped up "purchase 3D printer" on my to purchase list lol

 

[viper69]

I think that would depend on the hole size as I don't see them getting stuck in the material itself, but then again it's custom made so it should be able to be modified with a bit of experience with a 3D printer. It's a good idea and it just bumped up "purchase 3D printer" on my to purchase list lol

I dont have enough tanks to justify the cost of one, it will take up space.

speculating the same thing re the grid size. I doubt the printer can print holes smaller than the tips of tarsal claws. I'll get them w/out venting.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

Just cause they haven't had an issue now doesnt mean they wont.

Yeah, unfortunately some people don't realise that it's not "scaremongering nonsense" until they actually have an issue themselves.

 

[Smotzer]

Yeah, unfortunately some people don't realise that it's not "scaremongering nonsense" until they actually have an issue themselves.

Exactly!! What do they say, “better safe than sorry”, don’t know why all people just don’t accept it

 

[jc55]

It seems like an easy and logical choice if you want to keep your T safe and avoid the possibility of it getting stuck in a mesh top and it getting injured or possibly dying.Avoid the mesh top and one less problem to worry about.

 

[8 legged]

Hi there,

I'm fairly new to the hobby. When it comes to enclosure design, the one point that has been laboured from many keepers that I have followed and researched is that mesh tops on enclosures are bad, particularly for terrestrial Ts. and particular those found on the Exo Terra enclosures.

There are some keepers though who use a lot of these (I'm thinking particularly of Dave from Dave's Little Beasties) who have experienced no issues at all, and value the mesh top for the degree of control it provides over moisture and humidity levels.

I'm guessing there is no right or wrong with this, that it comes down to keepers' individual experience and needs. I am curious though as to whether Dave is the 'exception to rule' or whether there are many other keepers happily using mesh topped Exo Terras with no issues.

Thanks,
Wayne

I use over 90 percent exo-terrariums and have replaced the lid in 52 of 60 terrariums. Individual fossorials and / or terrestrials still have the metal mesh in the lid, but only because I have known the animals for years and climbing is rather unlikely - should something happen anyway (which cannot be excluded) I have to deal with it. The fact is that usually nothing happens - but when it does, it can be ugly. Either the animal throws off its leg, or it is panicked in a trap - removing the spider from the lid can be a very ugly act!
Ultimately, if I have the time and the muse, I will modify the rest of the lids as well ...
Why risk something when it can be avoided!
Whoever knows better may later be responsible - it's that simple!
In addition, the perforated plastic has another advantage - since tarantulas are not watered daily, the humidity in the enclosure is maintained much better, although an adequate air flow is guaranteed!

PS: You don't always have to agree with likeable YouTubers! I had a little discussion with him about holding balfouris in groups
- and although I really appreciate him - our opinions couldn't have been more different! And with all modesty: of course I was right!

Simple and useful:

 

[liquidfluidity]

I use over 90 percent exo-terrariums and have replaced the lid in 52 of 60 terrariums. Individual fossorials and / or terrestrials still have the metal mesh in the lid, but only because I have known the animals for years and climbing is rather unlikely - should something happen anyway (which cannot be excluded) I have to deal with it. The fact is that usually nothing happens - but when it does, it can be ugly. Either the animal throws off its leg, or it is panicked in a trap - removing the spider from the lid can be a very ugly act!
Ultimately, if I have the time and the muse, I will modify the rest of the lids as well ...
Why risk something when it can be avoided!
Whoever knows better may later be responsible - it's that simple!
In addition, the perforated plastic has another advantage - since tarantulas are not watered daily, the humidity in the enclosure is maintained much better, although an adequate air flow is guaranteed!

PS: You don't always have to agree with likeable YouTubers! I had a little discussion with him about holding balfouris in groups
- and although I really appreciate him - our opinions couldn't have been more different! And with all modesty: of course I was right!

Simple and useful:
View attachment 384685

The ones I have changed out look exactly the same. I have a stack here waiting to be drilled. If I did order a printed top, I would order without vents/mesh and do my own drilling.

 

[8 legged]

The ones I have changed out look exactly the same. I have a stack here waiting to be drilled. If I did order a printed top, I would order without vents/mesh and do my own drilling.

I printed some for myself, and yes - take the ones without holes, drill them yourself! The holes are the weakness in 3D printing and will break...