The definitive "Most Venomous Spider" - Help a noob out

[Cursed Lemon]

I joined these boards with a very specific purpose, and that is to finally figure out what spider has the most deadly venom of all. I figured you all could help me, given what a neat community this seems to be. I'm looking to find which spider (possessing non-necrotic venom, since that's a little hard to gauge) possesses the most potent venom according to LD-50 or other similar toxicology studies. And before you ask, yes, I did a search, but I didn't find information on a few particular species.

So far I've whittled it away to a few possible candidates:

Hadronyche formidabilis - I've found no real research related to the northern tree-dwelling funnel webs, only, "dude, I SWEAR, it's THAT venomous man!"

Atrax robustus - I'm sure we're all familiar with the Sydney funnel webs.

Phoneutria nigriventer - Or similar wandering spider species. This species seems to be the best candidate, accordingly to toxicology studies, for having the most powerful venom drop-for-drop.

Latrodectus variolus/hasselti - And the good old widow spiders.

Also, can anyone point me to any venom studies done on Sicarius hahni? I keep hearing that it has the most devastating necrotic spider venom in the world, but I can't seem to locate a source to prove it.

 

[mrbonzai211]

I didn't check the Guinness website to support this, but wikipedia says this:

"The Brazilian wandering spiders appear in the Guinness Book of World Records 2007 for the most venomous animal."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_wandering_spider

 

[pinktoe23]

I believe Guiness does not distiguish between most venomous and most dangerous, which are not synonyms so their information is not too accurate. Wouldn't rely on it.

Take a look at these threads, they should answer your question and explain this better. They're long but worth it.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=35141&highlight=most+venomous+spider

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=94593&highlight=most+venomous+spider

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I got a lot of mixed views between those two threads.

People keep knocking the LD50 tests, which I've seen in many different places, for the understandable reason that mice aren't humans, but is it not true that mice have a very similar susceptibility to the same poisons that affect humans (for reasons that escape me currently)? Besides, what other credible toxicology tests have been performed on a variety of spider species? It's really all we have to go on. Also, I do specifically mean "venomous", and not "dangerous" - I'm aware of the conflict there, such as the fact that Phoneutria bites are more common, funnel webs deliver more venom when they bite, etc. etc.

It seems to be a dead tie between Phoneutria and Hadronyche. Venom's post in one of the threads - the post that detailed the fact that Phoneutria's venom contains the most toxic compound of any spider venom in the world, but that funnel web venom contained a more lethal cocktail of other ingredients - was a very informative post, and the kind of thing I was searching out to begin with. It seemed like the rest of the posts were just "yes, no" contests and a battle of authority.

 

[hamfoto]

There is no definitive #1. This study has never been done. Yes, you can look at LD50 because of the supposed correlation to humans...but these venoms act differently in different types of mammals.
Hadronyche/Atrax...a good dose of venom and no treatment, you're pretty likely to die. it will attack your nervous system and shut it down. There's a reason why no one has died in Australia since they created the antivenin.
*Also, the venom is particularly nasty on primates (including humans)...but doesn't seem to do much to dogs...whereas theraphosid venom from Australian theraphosids is highly deadly (a 100% fatality from a small number of cases in one study).
Phonuetria...incredibly pain inducing, causing people to go into shock. Stories are that it is one of THE most painful venoms in the world. An adult will probably not die, though wish they would. P. nigriventer and P. fera are the most venomous.
Latrodectus...very strong neurotoxin that will kill without treatment, though probably not a healthy adult.
Sicarius...some of the lesser known African arid/desert species are known to have some OF THE NASTIEST cocktail of venom...deadly, painful, and incredible tissue-destruction.

Chris

 

[cacoseraph]

comment on Guiness BOWR


my understanding is that someone has to submit a claim to them. guiness will fact check to a greater or lesser degree... but in no way should what is in there be considered the final word. in point of fact, they seem to have an overall somewhat simplistic view of biology type stuff. it is a very fun read but not a very good reference for anything you want to be absolutely certain about


and you really need to refine your question. i would include operant definitions of just about all the words in your question to. that way... you have a better chance of actually answering the question at hand and not the possible interpretations of the question

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I understand that there is a lot of semantics involved with the question, but I also find that a lot of those semantic arguments are brought up unnecessarily. I'm merely looking for the most potent venom; not which spider poses the "greatest danger" or any silly thing like that. Obviously Venom's answer fairly satisfied me, I'd just like another word or two on it from some other people.

Also, I do intend to direct my question towards human danger, but I realize that human figures are inaccurate; I accept LD50 tests as the only extensive research done on the subject, and also recognize the inherent flaw in the process.

 

[Munihausen]

old but good topic

IMHO there are few questions in the Arachno-community more interesting, and even fewer more misleading. As with basically any question, you need to first define your terms. How does one define the quality of "being venomous." Is it amount of "venom," in mL, multiplied by LD-50 for a determination of how many kilograms of lab mice one spider could theoretically put 50% of down? That's a stretch. How is the venom being administrered? Intravenously? Subcutaneously? Intraperitonally (sp?)? Legitimate discussion of how to go about answering this vague question derails it into more of an academic issue, making it (probably) less interesting.

One might ask which is the most "dangerous," which would seem to incorporate both the spider's venom's toxicity via the typical route of administration, coupled with the spider's tendancy to use it. But even then, what do we mean by toxicity? Strict neruotoxicity? Or cytotoxicity? Personally, i'd rather get bit by Phoneutria, have it hurt like hell, go into shock, be in a hospital and on a ventilator, then come out in two weeks than have half my arm rot off thanks to Sicarius. But that's just me.

As the above two bogus thought experiments hopefully demonstrate, the question is a bad one. A more reasonable conclusion - and unfortunately at total odds with man's unrelenting, illogical desire to rank everything - is to simply have a selection of 1/2 a dozen arachnids you don't want to have an accident with, and various statistics which exist to support that conclusion.

That all being said, not considering Lactrodectus to be in the same league, and without having kepts any Atrax, Hydronche, or Sicarius, Phoneutria fera was a handful. Climbs glass + blindingly fast + frequent threat displays = insurance rates should've gone up. As totally irrelevant a submission as it is, I would be much happier in a locked room with a dozen Atrax, Hydronches, or Sicarius plodding around than a handful of Phoneutria sps - at the VERY least I am confident I would be able to squish them.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

IMHO there are few questions in the Arachno-community more interesting, and even fewer more misleading. As with basically any question, you need to first define your terms. How does one define the quality of "being venomous." Is it amount of "venom," in mL, multiplied by LD-50 for a determination of how many kilograms of lab mice one spider could theoretically put 50% of down? That's a stretch. How is the venom being administrered? Intravenously? Subcutaneously? Intraperitonally (sp?)? Legitimate discussion of how to go about answering this vague question derails it into more of an academic issue, making it (probably) less interesting.

I only ask for research figures that suggest the pure toxicity of deadly spider venoms. Whether it be statistics or experiments. I think we can assume that all neurotoxic venoms work best when injected intravenously.

One might ask which is the most "dangerous," which would seem to incorporate both the spider's venom's toxicity via the typical route of administration, coupled with the spider's tendancy to use it. But even then, what do we mean by toxicity? Strict neruotoxicity? Or cytotoxicity? Personally, i'd rather get bit by Phoneutria, have it hurt like hell, go into shock, be in a hospital and on a ventilator, then come out in two weeks than have half my arm rot off thanks to Sicarius. But that's just me.

I specifically chose not to include spiders with necrotic venoms, only because the results are inconsistent and the severity of the bites is impossible to gauge against neurotoxic spiders, of which there are a greater number of spiders which possess dangerous types.

As the above two bogus thought experiments hopefully demonstrate, the question is a bad one. A more reasonable conclusion - and unfortunately at total odds with man's unrelenting, illogical desire to rank everything - is to simply have a selection of 1/2 a dozen arachnids you don't want to have an accident with, and various statistics which exist to support that conclusion.

That all being said, not considering Lactrodectus to be in the same league, and without having kepts any Atrax, Hydronche, or Sicarius, Phoneutria fera was a handful. Climbs glass + blindingly fast + frequent threat displays = insurance rates should've gone up. As totally irrelevant a submission as it is, I would be much happier in a locked room with a dozen Atrax, Hydronches, or Sicarius plodding around than a handful of Phoneutria sps - at the VERY least I am confident I would be able to squish them.

The basic question I'm asking is that which neurotoxic spider venom, when administered in the same amount and in the same manner, will produce the most severe symptoms and/or the most deaths.

 

[Munihausen]

I think we can assume that all neurotoxic venoms work best when injected intravenously.

This might not be the best assumption. Look through Brian Grieg Fry's Venomdoc website.

I specifically chose not to include spiders with necrotic venoms, only because the results are inconsistent and the severity of the bites is impossible to gauge against neurotoxic spiders

Which results, and how is death via renal failure inconsistent with death via anaphylaxis or suffocation? Dead is dead.

These issues notwithstanding, and for whatever it's worth, your "basic" question stands.

 

[mrbonzai211]

I vote for the giant mechanical spider in Wild Wild West. ;P

 

[blacktara]

"So far I've whittled it away to a few possible candidates:

Hadronyche formidabilis - I've found no real research related to the northern tree-dwelling funnel webs, only, "dude, I SWEAR, it's THAT venomous man!"

Atrax robustus - I'm sure we're all familiar with the Sydney funnel webs.

Phoneutria nigriventer - Or similar wandering spider species. This species seems to be the best candidate, accordingly to toxicology studies, for having the most powerful venom drop-for-drop.

Latrodectus variolus/hasselti - And the good old widow spiders"

All I know is this. Gimme those four and tell me you gotta take a hit from one of them, and I'd take opt for Latrodectus.

On the other hand, I'd let you tag me with all three of the others if it means I dont have to take it from HFormid.

 

[blacktara]

Miller MK, Whyte IM, White J, Keir PM, 2000. Clinical features and management of Hadronyche envenomation in man. Toxicon 38: 409–427.

Harrington AP, Raven RJ, Bowe PC, Hawdon GM, Winkel KD, 1990. Funnel-web spider (Hadronyche infensa) envenomations in coastal south-east Queensland. Med J Aust 171: 651–653.


And probably the best recent summary article on all this is

Diaz, James H. The Global Epidemiology, Syndromic Classification, Management, and Prevention of Spider Bites. Am.J.Trop.Med.Hyg, 71(2) 239-250. (2004)

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Which results, and how is death via renal failure inconsistent with death via anaphylaxis or suffocation? Dead is dead.

Deaths attributed to necrotic bites often have other factors involved, such as infection from the resulting open wounds, which would contribute to the spider's "danger", and not its "toxicity". Very rarely will you uncover a report dealing with systemic failures in a human (and like I said, Sicarius doesn't have any real amount of research done on it). By "inconsistent" I meant that the same amount of venom will not always produce the same severity of symptoms.