Terrible keepers rant and Xenesthis❓

[SpookySpooder]

Normally I greatly enjoy visiting animal rooms to see the plethora of amazing animals people keep and seeing how everybody gets creative with their husbandry. I love chatting with keepers and breeders and learning new information, the nuanced bits gained from experience are the tastiest morsels.

Today I had a not so great experience. I was with a friend who wanted to introduce me to a local "breeder" he met, since I mentioned I was interested in the Xenesthis and Pamphobeteus genera but didn't have any specimens in my collection.

I would have to say, the worst private animal room I have ever witnessed in person. His T room was a poorly lit utility shed that was parked next to his garage in the backyard. It had no roof or window ventilation and was stuffy and musky. There was substrate mold in every enclosure. Some were swamped. I saw a GBB on a wall because the entire substrate was soaked. His biggest cricket bin had a thin layer of dead and blackened crickets. Several other bins had nothing but dead crickets.

It was like seeing every poor husbandry practice stacked on top of neglect.

He had MM T's cohabiting with females he said that were already paired up. No, not in a shark tank set up, in the same enclosures. Like he paired them and just left them in there. Granted he was using very long 20L glass aquariums with large PVC corner pipes but still, I'm pretty sure that's entirely out of practice with what is conventionally acceptable. Ethically speaking, that's just super uncool to the T.

He had probably hundreds of deli cups unventilated and stacked in a corner, most of it was insufficiently labelled or simply unlabeled. Most of the cup had live slings and discarded molts but there were occasional dead slings mixed in when I sifted through them. He nonchalantly told me he "usually throws out a few dead ones a week."

I'm not a breeder, but my entire collection has been raised from slings and I do not have a death every week. At my current rate I don't even have a death a year.

I think that was the biggest red flag for me.

He asked me if I was interested in a breeding pair of any of his T's "because he had so many he didn't know what to do with" and I politely declined.

In the end we spent almost two hours just chatting with him and partaking in other social activities. I gifted him something from my garden and he gave me a sling from his pile.

I know that rationally I should be happy, but after that interaction I just feel a lingering sense of gloom. That meeting left a negative impression on my spirit, and I had to get it off my chest.

The lucky escapee from his hoard


1.5" sling in <0.5" substrate with no water dish or ventilation


It was pretty lethargic and unresponsive to being photographed.

I have given it a water dish and removed the uneaten but dead cricket.

Is there anything else I should do temporarily?

I'm going to research and rehouse this sling into a suitable enclosure ASAP.

I have zero experience with this genus so any advice or input before I do that is appreciated.

 

[Wolf135]

I would rehouse it asap, it appears to be fine food wise as for the specifics for this species I don't have any experience.

I feel like animal abuse laws should apply to Ts atleast when it involves a lot like you saw.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Normally I greatly enjoy visiting animal rooms to see the plethora of amazing animals people keep and seeing how everybody gets creative with their husbandry. I love chatting with keepers and breeders and learning new information, the nuanced bits gained from experience are the tastiest morsels.

Today I had a not so great experience. I was with a friend who wanted to introduce me to a local "breeder" he met, since I mentioned I was interested in the Xenesthis and Pamphobeteus genera but didn't have any specimens in my collection.

I would have to say, the worst private animal room I have ever witnessed in person. His T room was a poorly lit utility shed that was parked next to his garage in the backyard. It had no roof or window ventilation and was stuffy and musky. There was substrate mold in every enclosure. Some were swamped. I saw a GBB on a wall because the entire substrate was soaked. His biggest cricket bin had a thin layer of dead and blackened crickets. Several other bins had nothing but dead crickets.

It was like seeing every poor husbandry practice stacked on top of neglect.

He had MM T's cohabiting with females he said that were already paired up. No, not in a shark tank set up, in the same enclosures. Like he paired them and just left them in there. Granted he was using very long 20L glass aquariums with large PVC corner pipes but still, I'm pretty sure that's entirely out of practice with what is conventionally acceptable. Ethically speaking, that's just super uncool to the T.

He had probably hundreds of deli cups unventilated and stacked in a corner, most of it was insufficiently labelled or simply unlabeled. Most of the cup had live slings and discarded molts but there were occasional dead slings mixed in when I sifted through them. He nonchalantly told me he "usually throws out a few dead ones a week."

I'm not a breeder, but my entire collection has been raised from slings and I do not have a death every week. At my current rate I don't even have a death a year.

I think that was the biggest red flag for me.

He asked me if I was interested in a breeding pair of any of his T's "because he had so many he didn't know what to do with" and I politely declined.

In the end we spent almost two hours just chatting with him and partaking in other social activities. I gifted him something from my garden and he gave me a sling from his pile.

I know that rationally I should be happy, but after that interaction I just feel a lingering sense of gloom. That meeting left a negative impression on my spirit, and I had to get it off my chest.

The lucky escapee from his hoard
View attachment 454229

1.5" sling in <0.5" substrate with no water dish or ventilation
View attachment 454232

It was pretty lethargic and unresponsive to being photographed.
View attachment 454231
I have given it a water dish and removed the uneaten but dead cricket.

Is there anything else I should do temporarily?

I'm going to research and rehouse this sling into a suitable enclosure ASAP.

I have zero experience with this genus so any advice or input before I do that is appreciated.

what a nightmare regular keepers might lose a t every few years this guy loses them weekly .. hope you can convince him to fix his t husbandry.
I’ve had various escapes over the years but all but 2 were recaptured.. and I’ve lost some Ts to dehydration in the past but I’ve never ever lost Ts weekly that’s just plain reckless and terrible …

 

[Arachnophobphile]

Normally I greatly enjoy visiting animal rooms to see the plethora of amazing animals people keep and seeing how everybody gets creative with their husbandry. I love chatting with keepers and breeders and learning new information, the nuanced bits gained from experience are the tastiest morsels.

Today I had a not so great experience. I was with a friend who wanted to introduce me to a local "breeder" he met, since I mentioned I was interested in the Xenesthis and Pamphobeteus genera but didn't have any specimens in my collection.

I would have to say, the worst private animal room I have ever witnessed in person. His T room was a poorly lit utility shed that was parked next to his garage in the backyard. It had no roof or window ventilation and was stuffy and musky. There was substrate mold in every enclosure. Some were swamped. I saw a GBB on a wall because the entire substrate was soaked. His biggest cricket bin had a thin layer of dead and blackened crickets. Several other bins had nothing but dead crickets.

It was like seeing every poor husbandry practice stacked on top of neglect.

He had MM T's cohabiting with females he said that were already paired up. No, not in a shark tank set up, in the same enclosures. Like he paired them and just left them in there. Granted he was using very long 20L glass aquariums with large PVC corner pipes but still, I'm pretty sure that's entirely out of practice with what is conventionally acceptable. Ethically speaking, that's just super uncool to the T.

He had probably hundreds of deli cups unventilated and stacked in a corner, most of it was insufficiently labelled or simply unlabeled. Most of the cup had live slings and discarded molts but there were occasional dead slings mixed in when I sifted through them. He nonchalantly told me he "usually throws out a few dead ones a week."

I'm not a breeder, but my entire collection has been raised from slings and I do not have a death every week. At my current rate I don't even have a death a year.

I think that was the biggest red flag for me.

He asked me if I was interested in a breeding pair of any of his T's "because he had so many he didn't know what to do with" and I politely declined.

In the end we spent almost two hours just chatting with him and partaking in other social activities. I gifted him something from my garden and he gave me a sling from his pile.

I know that rationally I should be happy, but after that interaction I just feel a lingering sense of gloom. That meeting left a negative impression on my spirit, and I had to get it off my chest.

The lucky escapee from his hoard
View attachment 454229

1.5" sling in <0.5" substrate with no water dish or ventilation
View attachment 454232

It was pretty lethargic and unresponsive to being photographed.
View attachment 454231
I have given it a water dish and removed the uneaten but dead cricket.

Is there anything else I should do temporarily?

I'm going to research and rehouse this sling into a suitable enclosure ASAP.

I have zero experience with this genus so any advice or input before I do that is appreciated.

Consider yourself fortunate to get a Xenesthis free basically. They are still slightly pricey but those prices have come down quite a bit.

Do you know what species of Xenesthis you have?

All the Xenesthis are very hardy and can reach up to 9 inches dls as adults.

I just got a 2 inch Xenesthis intermedia. I have it in a 8x6x8 Kritter Keeper on moist sub. They grow fast up to 5 inches then slow down kind of like a geniculata growth rate.

They are very leggy with smaller bodies. They are also prolific setae kickers and fast when they get bigger.

 

[SpookySpooder]

what a nightmare regular keepers might lose a t every few years this guy loses them weekly .. hope you can convince him to fix his t husbandry.

I’ve had various escapes over the years but all but 2 were recaptured.. and I’ve lost some Ts to dehydration in the past but I’ve never ever lost Ts weekly that’s just plain reckless and terrible …

Thanks for the video. I did ask him about his husbandry and maintenance and he played it off as a lapse in his regular maintenance schedule because he had gotten so busy with everything else. To me it seems like he understood what he needed to do, he also knew he needed to do it, but he hadn't done it.

I could ask my friend to pass along a message encouraging him to do better for the sake of his animals, but my connection with him ends there. He's just some guy I met because my buddy met him on FB marketplace once.

Consider yourself fortunate to get a Xenesthis free basically. They are still slightly pricey but those prices have come down quite a bit.

Do you know what species of Xenesthis you have?

All the Xenesthis are very hardy and can reach up to 9 inches dls as adults.

I just got a 2 inch Xenesthis intermedia. I have it in a 8x6x8 Kritter Keeper on moist sub. They grow fast up to 5 inches then slow down kind of like a geniculata growth rate.

They are very leggy with smaller bodies. They are also prolific setae kickers and fast when they get bigger.

Yeah, on the bright side of things it's quite nice. I just think back to the generations of T's that are sitting in his shed and feel a tinge of remorse about it

Even now I'm a bit worried about this one. It hasn't moved at all since I brought it back and gave it water.

He told me Xenesthis sp. Colombian Lesserback, so Xenesthis immanis is what I'm labeling it until it grows up and I can get someone to properly ID it.

I'm mixing substrate now. Would the standard terrestrial set up (damp substrate, starter burrow, cork hide, dish) be sufficient or is there a nuance that I haven't read up on yet?

I'll prep the enclosure in a bit. Gonna look at more threads

 

[Arachnophobphile]

Yeah, on the bright side of things it's quite nice. I just think back to the generations of T's that are sitting in his shed and feel a tinge of remorse about it

Even now I'm a bit worried about this one. It hasn't moved at all since I brought it back and gave it water.

He told me Xenesthis sp. Colombian Lesserback, so Xenesthis immanis is what I'm labeling it until it grows up and I can get someone to properly ID it.

I'm mixing substrate now. Would the standard terrestrial set up (damp substrate, starter burrow, cork hide, dish) be sufficient or is there a nuance that I haven't read up on yet?

I'll prep the enclosure in a bit. Gonna look at more threads

Nope that's a perfect setup for Xenesthis. They don't move quickly as slings, at least mine doesn't and it's 2 inches. Maybe bigger like 3 inches and up only time will tell.

I'd give it some food to see if it's ready to eat.

As far as that person you got it from, yeah that's pretty bad. Sounds like they have hoarder syndrome. Unfortunately the T's will suffer. Don't know if talking to them will even help or sink in.

Someone that is a hoarder needs professional help and that's even a challenge.

 

[Liquifin]

If I'm being honest, it's actually more common to see this than most would think. The bigger the projects the more help you'll need. This is why I am picky about what I choose to breed yearly because of possibly being overwhelmed. Smaller enclosures are actually more common than most would think. A tarantula rack system is just like most other animal rack system. Smaller enclosure with just very little set-up or decor, but just enough to get things done as simple as possible. Even large breeders in the EU use smaller enclosures that are bare to the bones. Now the problem is neglect and dead T.'s. If you have a collection of tarantulas and there are dead specimens in the mix, then certainly things are wrong here.

 

[SpookySpooder]

If I'm being honest, it's actually more common to see this than most would think. The bigger the projects the more help you'll need. This is why I am picky about what I choose to breed yearly because of possibly being overwhelmed. Smaller enclosures are actually more common than most would think. A tarantula rack system is just like most other animal rack system. Smaller enclosure with just very little set-up or decor, but just enough to get things done as simple as possible. Even large breeders in the EU use smaller enclosures that are bare to the bones. Now the problem is neglect and dead T.'s. If you have a collection of tarantulas and there are dead specimens in the mix, then certainly things are wrong here.

I don't want what you're saying to be true, but having seen similar fish room, bird, and reptile rooms in disarray, I am reminded how common and easy it is to allow things to fall into disorder. I applaud you for being responsible in only taking on what you can responsibly manage. Like no joke, this guy had a stack of Lasiodora parahybana slings that were unlabeled and just stacked like a foot high. No idea what he's doing with all of them and I suspect he doesn't mind much if they die off one by one. Every single cup was unventilated.

I keep my enclosures bare for the most part, besides the necessities (hide, water dish, plants or hardscape for anchor points) I do not include any decorative items at all. I understand some people like the man made aesthetic, and I could lean either way.


A or B?


Enclosure A is a deli cup that measures 10x10x8cm

Enclosure B is an acrylic bug keeper from Daiso that measures approx. 15x10x11cm



The sling is approx. 6cm or 1.5" DLS

It drank some water and has taken a fresh cricket and looks a bit more plump so I am not worried about it anymore.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I don't want what you're saying to be true, but having seen similar fish room, bird, and reptile rooms in disarray, I am reminded how common and easy it is to allow things to fall into disorder. I applaud you for being responsible in only taking on what you can responsibly manage. Like no joke, this guy had a stack of Lasiodora parahybana slings that were unlabeled and just stacked like a foot high. No idea what he's doing with all of them and I suspect he doesn't mind much if they die off one by one. Every single cup was unventilated.

I keep my enclosures bare for the most part, besides the necessities (hide, water dish, plants or hardscape for anchor points) I do not include any decorative items at all. I understand some people like the man made aesthetic, and I could lean either way.

View attachment 454243
A or B?
View attachment 454245

Enclosure A is a deli cup that measures 10x10x8cm

Enclosure B is an acrylic bug keeper from Daiso that measures approx. 15x10x11cm

View attachment 454244

The sling is approx. 6cm or 1.5" DLS

It drank some water and has taken a fresh cricket and looks a bit more plump so I am not worried about it anymore.

View attachment 454248 View attachment 454247

They are pretty hardy.

When I got my X. intermedia from the FedeX hub. It settled right in to it's new enclosure and even ate.

 

[TLSizzle]

I'd be tempted to take any and all he's willing to give. Tend them up for a week or so and try to sell them to folks in some way.
I too have a super hard time leaving critters in known bad conditions. I got quite the track record of buying things I have pity for, fixing them up then rehoming them for fractions of what I spent cause a good home is the most important thing.

Your T is beautiful and very lucky! Well done!

 

[SpookySpooder]

I'd be tempted to take any and all he's willing to give. Tend them up for a week or so and try to sell them to folks in some way.
I too have a super hard time leaving critters in known bad conditions. I got quite the track record of buying things I have pity for, fixing them up then rehoming them for fractions of what I spent cause a good home is the most important thing.

Your T is beautiful and very lucky! Well done!

As much as I would love to take in a bunch of his slings, or set up something like that, I doubt he'd be open to it. Seemed like he was keen on making sales. Gave me a very mill-breeder vibe when he talked about producing slings like they were crops.

I get insects aren't as cute or intelligent as dogs or birds but that's no reason to give them a lesser degree of care. His mentality toward his stock reminded me of how people treat their fish or plants. Like Liquifin mentioned, it's all too common.

I'm torn, on one hand I did not want to put a dollar in to support these practices and on the other I want to snatch up as many of them as I can to get them away from him, but clearing out his inventory would just facilitate him doing this to more animals.

This type of hobbyist exists in every pet hobby I've been in and I haven't seen any ideas on how to address the issue in a lasting manner. Perhaps an authority you can report to that bans certain offenders from keeping animals? This just got too political for me.

Just waiting for it to finish eating before I rehouse it now.

Final input or criticisms before it goes in?

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

If I'm being honest, it's actually more common to see this than most would think. The bigger the projects the more help you'll need. This is why I am picky about what I choose to breed yearly because of possibly being overwhelmed. Smaller enclosures are actually more common than most would think. A tarantula rack system is just like most other animal rack system. Smaller enclosure with just very little set-up or decor, but just enough to get things done as simple as possible. Even large breeders in the EU use smaller enclosures that are bare to the bones. Now the problem is neglect and dead T.'s. If you have a collection of tarantulas and there are dead specimens in the mix, then certainly things are wrong here.

Sounds like a breeder with poor ability to take care of Ts to me. I could easily care for 100+ but I’m
Broke almost so I can’t buy any Ts. I set my max limit at 25 Ts until I move out.

I don't want what you're saying to be true, but having seen similar fish room, bird, and reptile rooms in disarray, I am reminded how common and easy it is to allow things to fall into disorder. I applaud you for being responsible in only taking on what you can responsibly manage. Like no joke, this guy had a stack of Lasiodora parahybana slings that were unlabeled and just stacked like a foot high. No idea what he's doing with all of them and I suspect he doesn't mind much if they die off one by one. Every single cup was unventilated.

I keep my enclosures bare for the most part, besides the necessities (hide, water dish, plants or hardscape for anchor points) I do not include any decorative items at all. I understand some people like the man made aesthetic, and I could lean either way.

View attachment 454243
A or B?
View attachment 454245

Enclosure A is a deli cup that measures 10x10x8cm

Enclosure B is an acrylic bug keeper from Daiso that measures approx. 15x10x11cm

View attachment 454244

The sling is approx. 6cm or 1.5" DLS

It drank some water and has taken a fresh cricket and looks a bit more plump so I am not worried about it anymore.

View attachment 454248 View attachment 454247

is vote a for a molt then b . I hope there not fragile like p antinous was .

 

[Liquifin]

Sounds like a breeder with poor ability to take care of Ts to me. I could easily care for 100+ but I’m
Broke almost so I can’t buy any Ts. I set my max limit at 25 Ts until I move out.

is vote a for a molt then b . I hope there not fragile like p antinous was .

If we're talking neglected T.'s with dead specimens mix in the collection. Then yes, it's a very poor keeper and breeder for sure. Now a rack system or any system for the purpose of a breeding system in place is actually very common. I'm not going to argue what is better when it comes to enclosure sizes (especially breeding boxes/enclosure sizes). Because this topic has been going on forever. It's the same argument as the ball python rack system, crested gecko rack system, leopard gecko rack system, etc. that everyone debates about even now. For me, as long as the animal is healthy and doing fine, then it's a win.

 

[SpookySpooder]

I chose the bigger enclosure because I didn't want to rehouse it as quickly.

Probably the easiest and calmest rehousing I've ever done.

Before/After enclosure comparison


My efforts rewarded with a flicked hair. My own knuckle hair does more damage TBH.



And with that, my first Xenesthis. Still got a bittersweet taste in my mouth about it.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

I chose the bigger enclosure because I didn't want to rehouse it as quickly.

Probably the easiest and calmest rehousing I've ever done.

View attachment 454274
View attachment 454272

Before/After enclosure comparison
View attachment 454273

My efforts rewarded with a flicked hair. My own knuckle hair does more damage TBH.

View attachment 454271

And with that, my first Xenesthis. Still got a bittersweet taste in my mouth about it.

Thanks for the advice!

We’re did you get that enclosure??! Epic ! Congratulations on the new t .

 

[SpookySpooder]

We’re did you get that enclosure??! Epic ! Congratulations on the new t .

My GF actually found 3 of them at Daiso Japan and got them for me a few years ago. When she bought them they were $1.50 each, now they're above $2. I haven't seen them in store since, seems like they're commonly available in Asia but only make it to the US stores sometimes.

~> LINK HERE <~

 

[Kada]

As much as I would love to take in a bunch of his slings, or set up something like that, I doubt he'd be open to it. Seemed like he was keen on making sales. Gave me a very mill-breeder vibe when he talked about producing slings like they were crops.

I get insects aren't as cute or intelligent as dogs or birds but that's no reason to give them a lesser degree of care. His mentality toward his stock reminded me of how people treat their fish or plants. Like Liquifin mentioned, it's all too common.

I'm torn, on one hand I did not want to put a dollar in to support these practices and on the other I want to snatch up as many of them as I can to get them away from him, but clearing out his inventory would just facilitate him doing this to more animals.

This type of hobbyist exists in every pet hobby I've been in and I haven't seen any ideas on how to address the issue in a lasting manner. Perhaps an authority you can report to that bans certain offenders from keeping animals? This just got too political for me.

Just waiting for it to finish eating before I rehouse it now.

Final input or criticisms before it goes in?

View attachment 454252 View attachment 454251 View attachment 454250

Whole heatedly agree with this issue you have with them. unfortunately usually either nothing happens and animal cruelty related issues persist, or the government steps in and people complain about not having the freedom to keep specific animals anymore.

To be honest, I feel the pet industry has proved itself unable to self regulate and be a mature industry that protects both environment and animal welfare. and although I dislike too much government intervention, I feel "we" the industry (in general) have given them every reason to regulate us

 

[Smotzer]

I have seen individuals who have bad husbandry like the person you encountered this week. Large scale breeding projects have a lot going on so the set up isn't necessarily the problem, but I do not condone the poor conditions and needless deaths that person willfully accepts as normal. That really is too bad, and a person like that indeed knows their care is subpar but they will never change. So I don't suggest even attempting to address it through your friend.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I chose the bigger enclosure because I didn't want to rehouse it as quickly.

Probably the easiest and calmest rehousing I've ever done.

View attachment 454274
View attachment 454272

Before/After enclosure comparison
View attachment 454273

My efforts rewarded with a flicked hair. My own knuckle hair does more damage TBH.

View attachment 454271

And with that, my first Xenesthis. Still got a bittersweet taste in my mouth about it.

Thanks for the advice!

Mine was definitely the most laid back rehouse I ever had with a sling.

Don't underestimate their UrS now. When it puts on size those UrS will be nastier than something like my T. vagans. I'm sure you already know this so I guess just having a senior moment and felt the need to mention it

 

[sparticus]

Just be glad you were able to save the one and move on. Unfortunately no one person can save every animal that needs rescue. It's an important part of rescue work to be able to recognize that you help the ones you can and don't blame yourself for the ones you can't help. It was beyond your control, and it's sad you had to see it, but not a problem that you can fix if he's not open to it.
I've struggled with the same in cat rescue, knowing when just getting out the animals the hoarder is willing to part with is ok, and when it's maybe time to make some kind of report. And then also knowing that reporting them will bomb the relationship you've built and they may not be willing to voluntarily give up any more of the cats/kittens going forward....
If you do decide to get involved, I've found a compassionate approach is generally most effective- "Hey, seems like you're kinda overwhelmed by the number you've got here- I'd be willing to take some off your hands, get them healthy and find them homes if you have any you don't want to keep." Works with cats anyway.