Tarantula Venom Potency

[bscheidt1020]

Hey everybody, I just want to ask you guys what tarantula species have the most potent venom? I hear S. Calceatum and Poecilotheria are bad but where do these stand in comparison to terrestrial baboons, Haplopelma, Selenocosmia, etc.? Also, it seems that arboreals tend to be more potent than terrestrials based on bite reports I have read. Do you find this to be true? H. Mac is always made out to be dangerous but OBT or P. Lugardi do not seem to get as bad a rap. Due to venom or other reasons? Pain is one thing, having a fever of 105 is another story….

 

[Marijan2]

Depends on various things, such as the predators in that area, prey size and similar things. Also, Baboons are considered only african T's, thus Haplopelma and Selenocosmia genera are not baboons

 

[Julia]

it seems that arboreals tend to be more potent than terrestrials

Not true. Arboreals tend to be *faster* than terrestrials though. As far as venom, OW are more potent than NW. All of the ones you mentioned in your post are OW.

 

[CreepyCrawlies]

The potency of a T's venom is subjective, since each person suffers a different reaction when bitten. You may have someone who was bitten by a pokie who had very minor symptoms. But have that same person be bitten by a rosea, and have an allergic reaction.

 

[bscheidt1020]

Depends on various things, such as the predators in that area, prey size and similar things. Also, Baboons are considered only african T's, thus Haplopelma and Selenocosmia genera are not baboons

Yeah I know they are not baboons, that was a list. Since there are a variety of African genera in the hobby, I figured I would group them under "baboons" instead of listing them.

---------- Post added 04-02-2014 at 04:06 PM ----------

Not true. Arboreals tend to be *faster* than terrestrials though. As far as venom, OW are more potent than NW. All of the ones you mentioned in your post are OW.

It seems to me that arboreals such as Stromatopelma, Heterscodra, and Poecilotheria tend to have worse bites than Pelinobius, Pternichilus, and Haplopelma…not true? I am just digging to see if anybody else has gotten the impression that certain OWs have worse venom than others.

 

[Julia]

It seems to me that arboreals such as Stromatopelma, Heterscodra, and Poecilotheria tend to have worse bites than Pelinobius, Pternichilus, and Haplopelma…not true? I am just digging to see if anybody else has gotten the impression that certain OWs have worse venom than others.

So you are only trying to compare OW tarantulas? If that's the case, I misunderstood.

 

[Poec54]

We don't know, there's probably over 1,000 species, and there's not much documentation, mostly anecdotal. There's factors such as the spider's size and how irritated it is. Rather than speculate endlessly on which is strongest, the best thing to do is avoid OW's if you're afraid to get bit, or if you have them, use care when working with them. No one's putting the money into lab testing LD dosages for all the species, so we may never have anything firm on this.

 

[bscheidt1020]

So you are only trying to compare OW tarantulas? If that's the case, I misunderstood.

Pretty much, only cause they are the ones that have the stronger venom. NW venom is not much to worry about. I read so many bite reports where someone says "I opened the tank and my Pokie teleported onto my back" or "I was doing cage maintenance and my OBT ran up my tongs" or "Hmac teleported onto a bookshelf, grew wings and flew at my face shooting venom bullets from gatling gun fangs." Makes it sound like you can't control getting bit by some of these spiders. I have only little ones but so far have not had any teleporting , much less up my tongs or arm. I do not know if they become evil at some point or if me moving slow and being careful can truly prevent even agro species from becoming fearful and reacting defensively.

---------- Post added 04-02-2014 at 05:05 PM ----------

Poec I am not trying to start pointless speculation, just wondering if there was a general consensus on venom strength of some of these OW species in a hierarchical structure. You hear sources saying Pokie venom is worse than most, Haplo venom is worse than most, Calceatum venom is possibly the worst, Hmac is one of the worst, OBT venom is pretty gnarly,etc. I am curious if these are equal or if there was a general understanding about an order from worst to bad, and maybe symptoms that differ between them….extreme pain, heart palpitations, fever,etc.

---------- Post added 04-02-2014 at 05:08 PM ----------

Oh, and I also wonder why it seems you have to be prepared to have arboreals versus terrestrials. Beside cage setup, if an OBT can run up your arm onto your back, what makes it different than S. Calc. or a Pokie?

 

[korg]

Poec I am not trying to start pointless speculation, just wondering if there was a general consensus on venom strength of some of these OW species in a hierarchical structure.

I think Rick's point (and the unfortunate reality of the situation) is that there's hardly anything but pointless speculation to be had on this topic beyond the general "OW are more potent" rule. Best to focus on proper care practices and avoid being bitten than obsess over the unknown details of exactly which venom might hurt you slightly more. I know this wasn't your intention, but I also think that undue fixation on sensationalistic and morbid topics like "which T is more venomous, could tarantula venom kill a child, etc" are kind of an unneeded distraction from what most of us enjoy about keeping tarantulas.

 

[bscheidt1020]

I think Rick's point (and the unfortunate reality of the situation) is that there's hardly anything but pointless speculation to be had on this topic beyond the general "OW are more potent" rule. Best to focus on proper care practices and avoid being bitten than obsess over the unknown details of exactly which venom might hurt you slightly more. I know this wasn't your intention, but I also think that undue fixation on sensationalistic and morbid topics like "which T is more venomous, could tarantula venom kill a child, etc" are kind of an unneeded distraction from what most of us enjoy about keeping tarantulas.

\

Understood. I was asking about it cause I wonder if some are just a pain reaction while some may result in high fever, heart palpitation, etc. If this was a known fact, it would be fairly useful in deciding where to draw the line with species to keep. RobC's video and bite report of the big Ornata certainly put me off the species….a fever that high could be very dangerous and possibly lethal. I try really hard to make biting a reality that does not happen but I am humble, and know that it could happen to me. If it does, I do not want to be left spending hundreds of dollars on medical bills because of my hobby. That is money that could take the family on vacation or be saved for a rainy day….My hobby should not take away from family life, rather it should be a part of it. BY the way, does anybody have some experience for me regarding the speed and agility difference between something like P. Murinus and H. Mac? I always hear that H mac is somehow more dangerous than OBT or Haplo, or at least that seems to be the consensus. I always wonder why.

 

[SuzukiSwift]

Hard to say really, but the most commonly known painful symptoms of a T bite comes from S.calceatum

 

[The Snark]

By LD50 tests or other?

 

[Poec54]

1 - Makes it sound like you can't control getting bit by some of these spiders.
2 - I have only little ones but so far have not had any teleporting , much less up my tongs or arm. I do not know if they become evil at some point 3 - if me moving slow and being careful can truly prevent even agro species from becoming fearful and reacting defensively
4 - just wondering if there was a general consensus on venom strength of some of these OW species in a hierarchical structure

1 - You obviously have a lot of control over being bit, which is why I've gone decades without being bit, as have many others.
2 - Slings are timid. They develop densiveness as they grow, when they can back it up with a powerful bite. then they're more likely to stand their ground and defend their territory. Some do become 'evil' at a certain size, like P murinus at 2". You've been warned.
3 - Moving slow and deliberate, and being calm under pressure are important in avoiding bites. If you're afraid and panicky, and your movements are jerky, you will make things worse, guaranteed. Confidence is a big part of this and that comes from experience. That takes years.
4 - There's no consensus about which bite is strongest, not only does it depend on the spider (size and anger level) but on the size, age, and physical condition of the victim. There haven't been many people bitten by captive tarantulas, even fewer are properly documented, precious few have been bitten by more than one species of OW (most seem to learn from the first bite), and many of the more experienced keepers have never been bitten. So please, all this does is sensationalize it, and put the focus on the wrong aspects, and then we get 'he man' guys who do stupid stunts to prove their masculinity. Let's drop it, okay? If you're worried about bites, or family members being bitten by escaped tarantulas, stick to docile NW's. There's plenty of beautiful species to choose there.

---------- Post added 04-02-2014 at 08:53 PM ----------

If it does, I do not want to be left spending hundreds of dollars on medical bills because of my hobby. That is money that could take the family on vacation or be saved for a rainy day….My hobby should not take away from family life

From that perspective, you don't seem like a good candidate for OW's. There's more downsides to owning them than benefits for your situation.

 

[bscheidt1020]

Poec, I am assuming from your post that you are fine with medical bills from an OW bite? What if a teleporting Pokie got lost and encountered your wife or kids?

My concern is not about my abilities, it is about realities. Everybody who keeps HOT reptiles thinks they won't be bitten. When they get bitten, their egos defend them so they keep at it. Same with spiders. I have the sneaking suspicion that with the proper precautions aka common sense, a person could go decades without a bite even when keeping many OW species. Those who keep adult OW species and have not been bitten in decades please chime in. I can not tell the character of those who post bite reports and whether it was a freak incident or an episode of carelessness or complaceny. My goal here is only to gain a better understanding of the manageability of those dangerous species. As I said, I am humble and would readily leave the truly irascible species to the wild and those that have arachnoculture as their primary priority. I am also more than happy to enjoy my NWs exclusively….so many great species! I am actually considering going NW only. My concern is eliminating OW species based on the experiences of a few. So far they seem fine to me. I have a passion for some OW species and want to build a collection. I also do not want to be one of those irresponsible people the think they are able to manage any spider. My cautious side(about 80% of my personality) wants to know what I suspect already..that bites are not caused by a super powered species, but rather by a complacent keeper. I am really not trying to step one toes but I promise, if bitten, I will fall on the sword for the good of the hobby. Likewise, for the good of the community, I do not want to scare folks off OWs but do want a truly honest description of their demeanor, rather than "one time, my OBT did this…" while leaving out what you may have done to provoke it.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

Poec himself has been keeping for decades without bites. Also, you can't judge spiders based on slings only. You say OW are "fine" for you but earlier claim all yours are tiny. You really need experience raising and dealing with adult OW's before you can make experienced comments about OW behavior. That's not condesencion - it's just fact.

 

[Poec54]

Poec, I am assuming from your post that you are fine with medical bills from an OW bite? What if a teleporting Pokie got lost and encountered your wife or kids?

My concern is not about my abilities, it is about realities. Everybody who keeps HOT reptiles thinks they won't be bitten. When they get bitten, their egos defend them so they keep at it. Same with spiders. I have the sneaking suspicion that with the proper precautions aka common sense, a person could go decades without a bite even when keeping many OW species. Those who keep adult OW species and have not been bitten in decades please chime in. I can not tell the character of those who post bite reports and whether it was a freak incident or an episode of carelessness or complaceny. My goal here is only to gain a better understanding of the manageability of those dangerous species. As I said, I am humble and would readily leave the truly irascible species to the wild and those that have arachnoculture as their primary priority. I am also more than happy to enjoy my NWs exclusively….so many great species! I am actually considering going NW only. My concern is eliminating OW species based on the experiences of a few. So far they seem fine to me. I have a passion for some OW species and want to build a collection. I also do not want to be one of those irresponsible people the think they are able to manage any spider. My cautious side(about 80% of my personality) wants to know what I suspect already..that bites are not caused by a super powered species, but rather by a complacent keeper. I am really not trying to step one toes but I promise, if bitten, I will fall on the sword for the good of the hobby. Likewise, for the good of the community, I do not want to scare folks off OWs but do want a truly honest description of their demeanor, rather than "one time, my OBT did this…" while leaving out what you may have done to provoke it.

I know about bites, I was bitten by a monocled cobra almost 30 years ago. A spider bite is significantly less expesive. There's really not that much that can be done for it, no serums, you're basically riding it out. I keep my spiders in a closed off part of the house (a lanai). I kept my snake collection in a garage. I don't like the idea of an OBT or Poec getting loose and biting a family member or cat or dog. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a NW-only collection, that was the norm for decades and only started to change about 10 years ago. There's some great NW's in the hobby now, and I have some of them.

Usually the people that worry about bites and venoms are just better off with NW's. A lot less stress in their lives. Think about it. After collecting cobras for years (I had 150 at my peak), spiders are easy, even OW's. That's the perspective I'm coming from, but that's very different than yours.

 

[bscheidt1020]

Wow Poec, that is friggin wild. I hope you understand, I am trying to find the difference between realist and sensationalist when it comes to T venom. Mostly for my family…I am a blue collared dog and can't afford throw money at spider bites. If i can tough it out, haha, believe me I will suck it up. If I feel like I might die, I must throw money at it, otherwise my family may not have a paycheck in the future. I wrote off venomous reptiles awhile ago, figuring most can put a man or child in the hospital. even gilas! They might be interesting but they might reduce your profits from a breeding project to zip with one hospital visit. I will always love the dangerous species but I love family more. If my dedication can allow me to go bite free, and the OW's will not kill me, I can rationalize it. If I am gonna have spastic and dangerous spiders running around the house…NWs really are great.

Problem with these threads is we can't meet. If we did, we might be able to get a better handle on who is truly dedicated and who is a little too dizzy for this hobby. Love the outreach, but a lot is lost over the net and it causes people to adopt a singular approach or "paint with a broad brush."

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

It's good when a person honestly assesses his/her situation and makes a realistic decision. And there's nothing wrong with NW species whatsoever. Some of the biggest and most beautiful spiders are NW.

 

[bscheidt1020]

God for bid, Psalmopoeus are NW, and freaking incredible at that! Me poking around is more about finding out if there is something I do not know about OW. Some make em sound like no big deal while others make em sound like rabid dogs. My suspicion is that y'all adopt an outlook based on how the most irresponsible keeper should look at it and you give that to everybody….again, because of the net. I was raised on shooting and firearms safety first and foremost. Precaution is paramount to me. I only hope that translates to my success in keeping spiders.

 

[Poec54]

It's good when a person honestly assesses his/her situation and makes a realistic decision. And there's nothing wrong with NW species whatsoever. Some of the biggest and most beautiful spiders are NW.

Absolutely. I love the big NW tropical terrestrials: Acanthoscurria, Lasiodora, Pamphobeteus, Phormictopus, Sericopelma, Theraphosa, Xenesthis, & some of the Grammostola. Ther's some beautiful Brachypelma and Aphonopelma. Chromatopelma, Megaphobema, and Nhandu have exceptional colors. I'm fascinated with the unique traits of Avics. You can have an incredible collection with just these.

---------- Post added 04-03-2014 at 06:32 AM ----------

Psalmopoeus are NW, and freaking incredible at that! ...My suspicion is that y'all adopt an outlook based on how the most irresponsible keeper should look at it and you give that to everybody….again, because of the net. I was raised on shooting and firearms safety first and foremost. Precaution is paramount to me. I only hope that translates to my success in keeping spiders.

We typically don't include Psalmopoeus when we refer to NW's, as they have more in common with OW's (and were even put in an OW subfamily for a while). No, we're not basing basing our advice on the most irresponsible keepers; it's based on day-to-day real life. Sometimes things happen beyond your control. Even if you're always careful, there can be escapes and bites. Sometimes they can be like a jack-in-the-box and you can't react fast enough. It happens. It takes some skill, experience, and steady nerves to recapture some of them. During cage transfers I've had OW's run out and on me, and up my shirt sleeves and pantlegs, on the inside, and had to quickly disrobe standing in the middle of the room to get them. Once you open that lid, you never know for certain what will happen with fast species.

The difference between firearms and spiders is that: firearms don't spend hours trying to get out of theirs holsters, or unexpectedly jump out of their holsters, and dash under heavy furniture and appliances, and then roam the house at night.