tarantula intelligence

[Apocalypstick]

Inteligence is a human abstraction and as such is totally subjective. It is irrelevant on a broad biological spectrum.

David David David....wrong. First let me tell you this is how---> intelligence is spelled and if you look it up in the dictionary you'll find it has no abstraction, human or otherwise. It is simply the ability to aquire information and process a reason for it. It says nothing about the level at which a living thing can process or reason info. But if a tarantula doesn not want any disturbance during a molt....what does it do? It uses it's aquired information that if my hide is left open, something can come in. If something can come in it may injury me because I am vulnerable during a molt.

Yes, much of this is innately aquired instinct. But intelligence is taking that innate info and reasoning that ...hey, I need to plug up my door now and I think I need a soft mat also....why, because I'm gonna molt. Reasoning....pure and simple.

 

[rbpeake1]

T Intelligence

It says nothing about the level at which a living thing can process or reason info. But if a tarantula doesn not want any disturbance during a molt....what does it do? It uses it's aquired information that if my hide is left open, something can come in. If something can come in it may injury me because I am vulnerable during a molt.

Yes, much of this is innately aquired instinct. But intelligence is taking that innate info and reasoning that ...hey, I need to plug up my door now and I think I need a soft mat also....why, because I'm gonna molt. Reasoning....pure and simple.

My daughter came in last night to where I keep my T's, and she was bouncing all around the place. My juvenile C. cyaneopubescens got agitated, and went and hid next to her recently molted skin. This morning she had opened a passage tunnel into her webbing, and was hanging out there keeping a very low profile.

A smart thing to do with a "predator" that seemed like a hungry bird! :clap:

 

[Sheri]

Instinctive inherent repsonse is much different than abstract reasoning.

If you look at humans, we detest and surpress our most basic social instincts in favour of a complicated social structure, loaded with nuances and consequences for deviation. And that new framework was developed so that we could accomplish what we have accomplished. A result of reason, a delveloping mind, the logical side of emotion.

This entire debate is incredibly insane.

Enjoy your animals because they are interesting, beautiful and fascinating. There is no need to insist on layering adjectives that are totally false in order to bond with them. They are spiders. We are human. We build roads and computers, and airplanes. They poop in thier waterdish, and get their fangs stuck in wire mesh.

Regardless of what negative impact we are having on the planet there is little doubt that if intelligence is defined as this:

The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
The faculty of thought and reason.
Superior powers of mind.

There is simply no debate.

 

[Ultimate Instar]

I think they poop in the waterdish because they know I'll remove and clean it. Sneaky little crittters.

Karen N.

 

[rbpeake1]

Sneaky

I think they poop in the waterdish because they know I'll remove and clean it. Sneaky little crittters.

Karen N.

I agree! Sneaky little b------s!

 

[David Burns]

David David David....wrong. First let me tell you this is how---> intelligence is spelled and if you look it up in the dictionary you'll find it has no abstraction, human or otherwise. It is simply the ability to aquire information and process a reason for it. It says nothing about the level at which a living thing can process or reason info. But if a tarantula doesn not want any disturbance during a molt....what does it do? It uses it's aquired information that if my hide is left open, something can come in. If something can come in it may injury me because I am vulnerable during a molt.

Yes, much of this is innately aquired instinct. But intelligence is taking that innate info and reasoning that ...hey, I need to plug up my door now and I think I need a soft mat also....why, because I'm gonna molt. Reasoning....pure and simple.

Please excuse my spelling abilities. I didn't say that Intelligence has an abstraction, I said it is an abstraction. You can also look up the word LOVE and get a definition, in the dictionary. This does not exclude LOVE from being an abstraction. Intelligence is a mental construct and as such is abstacted from physical reality. Intelligence has far greater ramifications than the ability to learn or process info.

And I think that you'll find that the Dictionary only deals with human concepts, there is no otherwise about it.

 

[Nerri1029]

David David David....wrong. First let me tell you this is how---> intelligence is spelled and if you look it up in the dictionary you'll find it has no abstraction, human or otherwise. It is simply the ability to aquire information and process a reason for it. It says nothing about the level at which a living thing can process or reason info. But if a tarantula doesn not want any disturbance during a molt....what does it do? It uses it's aquired information that if my hide is left open, something can come in. If something can come in it may injury me because I am vulnerable during a molt.

Yes, much of this is innately aquired instinct. But intelligence is taking that innate info and reasoning that ...hey, I need to plug up my door now and I think I need a soft mat also....why, because I'm gonna molt. Reasoning....pure and simple.

I MUST disagree.. TRY THIS ON FOR SIZE..

We have 4 girls.. during each pregnancy my wife experienced a "nesting instinct" - that is.. for no apparrant reason she started to rearrange the furniture and clean like a MAD WOMAN.. she gave birth 2 days later.
her behvior was totally out of character even for a pregnant woman.
this drive.. this desire to ready her surroundings for what was coming can easily be compared to webbing up the entrance to the hide..
a "desire to be alone" and "undisturbed" before a molt.. is NOT obviously inteligence..

 

[Cirith Ungol]

I MUST disagree.. TRY THIS ON FOR SIZE..

We have 4 girls.. during each pregnancy my wife experienced a "nesting instinct" - that is.. for no apparrant reason she started to rearrange the furniture and clean like a MAD WOMAN.. she gave birth 2 days later.
her behvior was totally out of character even for a pregnant woman.
this drive.. this desire to ready her surroundings for what was coming can easily be compared to webbing up the entrance to the hide..
a "desire to be alone" and "undisturbed" before a molt.. is NOT obviously inteligence..

Sorry... I just got an image in my head of your wife webbing up the place

 

[Mister Internet]

Yes, much of this is innately aquired instinct. But intelligence is taking that innate info and reasoning that ...hey, I need to plug up my door now and I think I need a soft mat also....why, because I'm gonna molt. Reasoning....pure and simple.

So "innately aquired instinct" (while you're being the Spelling Police, allow me to ask you how the heck you can acquire something that is innate? Innate means, by definition, that the subject matter in question was had at birth, i.e. was never 'acquired'. It also means that is can be known outside of learning... learning being the acquisition of knowledge. Make sure you're not standing on dandelions when you criticize your neighbor's lawn.) tells a tarantula that it's time to molt, but not to make a burrow or webbing? Are not the webbing and burrow-plugging activities part and parcel to the molting process? How would the tarantula instinctually know the macro-process (molting), but not know the micro-processes (plug the burrow, web a mat) involved to bring it about? This is in direct opposition to the paradigm of intelligence, which builds on the knowledge of micro-processes to arrive at macro-processes... the paradigm you are arguing FOR in this case.

The only way knowledge can be shared (and you are, in effect, putting these molting behaviors in the category of 'knowledge' by saying they are "reasoned"), is if it is figured out or taught. Now, obviously tarantulas don't learn from their mothers how to do these things, so each tarantula must then figure out by trial and error what must be done to perform a successful molt.

Isn't it funny, then, how every single one successfully "reasons" out the exact same sequence of events and tasks that must be performed? No, not an instinctual, hard-wired behavior at all...

BTW, this is how you spell -----> "acquired"

 

[Snipes]

Instinctive inherent repsonse is much different than abstract reasoning.

If you look at humans, we detest and surpress our most basic social instincts in favour of a complicated social structure, loaded with nuances and consequences for deviation. And that new framework was developed so that we could accomplish what we have accomplished. A result of reason, a delveloping mind, the logical side of emotion.

This entire debate is incredibly insane.

Enjoy your animals because they are interesting, beautiful and fascinating. There is no need to insist on layering adjectives that are totally false in order to bond with them. They are spiders. We are human. We build roads and computers, and airplanes. They poop in thier waterdish, and get their fangs stuck in wire mesh.

Regardless of what negative impact we are having on the planet there is little doubt that if intelligence is defined as this:

The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
The faculty of thought and reason.
Superior powers of mind.

There is simply no debate.

Thank you so much Sheri. That sums it up perfectly for me

 

[Ishkabibble]

I think my T's are more intelligent than George Bush, but I wouldn't state that means My T's are actually intelligent.

 

[Apocalypstick]

So "innately aquired instinct" (while you're being the Spelling Police, allow me to ask you how the heck you can acquire something that is innate? Innate means, by definition, that the subject matter in question was had at birth, i.e. was never 'acquired'. It also means that is can be known outside of learning... learning being the acquisition of knowledge. Make sure you're not standing on dandelions when you criticize your neighbor's lawn.) tells a tarantula that it's time to molt, but not to make a burrow or webbing? Are not the webbing and burrow-plugging activities part and parcel to the molting process? How would the tarantula instinctually know the macro-process (molting), but not know the micro-processes (plug the burrow, web a mat) involved to bring it about? This is in direct opposition to the paradigm of intelligence, which builds on the knowledge of micro-processes to arrive at macro-processes... the paradigm you are arguing FOR in this case.

The only way knowledge can be shared (and you are, in effect, putting these molting behaviors in the category of 'knowledge' by saying they are "reasoned"), is if it is figured out or taught. Now, obviously tarantulas don't learn from their mothers how to do these things, so each tarantula must then figure out by trial and error what must be done to perform a successful molt.

Isn't it funny, then, how every single one successfully "reasons" out the exact same sequence of events and tasks that must be performed? No, not an instinctual, hard-wired behavior at all...

BTW, this is how you spell -----> "acquired"

Ok...so I'm getting a butt kicking here Thank you so much for noticing my typo...if it were a repeated error, then perhaps your correction would be of value.

I must say, however, that your rebuttal was one of the more effective to my 'argument'.

But I have to ask...what are you thinking when you make the statement "allow me to ask you how the heck you can acquire something that is innate? Innate means, by definition, that the subject matter in question was had at birth, i.e. was never 'acquired'." Are you telling me I did not "acquire" my arms, legs, gender, toes, and brain during the reproduction cycle??? Of course these things were "acquired" as are every living creatures innate abilities. A newborn infant is hungry..it cries from the pain of hunger (innate response)...but very soon it reasons that when it cries loud and long enough it will get food.

The limits of a T's brain to expand on this type of "learning" and ability to develop this "intelligience" (which is what it is Sir) in comparison to other creatures, eg. us, is not relevant.

My point was not to equate tarantulas to humans, dogs, ants, or your grandma. Of course a T's intelligience is minimal by our pompous, arrogant, and SUBJECTIVE interpretation of our own 'superior to all' brainpower.

All I'm saying is don't rob the tarantula of what little intelligience it posesses.

By the way, my lawn is completely free of dandelions, but frought with various other weeds

 

[modeus]

T's must have some sort of ability to not only learn but retain the information that they learn, eg. the layout of there inclosures, where the water dish is where their hide is etc..I keep my spiderlings around the sides of a heat lamp and even if the lamp isnt on and there is no heat they know which side of the tank to climb for heat which cant be easy in a round enclosure.. ,to me this suggests some sort of memory, maybe not advanced problem solving capabilities but more then just running on nothing but primitive instinct,of course this is completely IMO for all I know they leave invisable chem trails like ants :? ,but reguardless of what brain capacity they have, we all have to agree they are simpley awsome creatures...

 

[rbpeake1]

Tuned In

T's must have some sort of ability to not only learn but retain the information that they learn. But reguardless of what brain capacity they have, we all have to agree they are simpley awsome creatures...

I'll second that thought! In some ways they do seem pretty "tuned in" to what is around them.

 

[Tony]

Mo, no one can ever convince me that Ts do not have a degree of intelligence. More than that, no one will ever convince me they do not have 'personality' type traits. They have been on this planet for eons.... every creature evolves and that's a really long time to evolve.

As I have said, I have ONE T at a time and thus an added advantage for observing and dissecting thier behavior. You don't have to be a West or Shultz to develope factual conclusions

I think the whole point is missed, or rather ignored in this thread. Lets 'analogize' it this way. Virtually everything has a 'degree' of intelligence, as set forth by the definition sheri pointed out.
I would then venture to say that a tarantula posseses about "5 degrees Kelvin" of intelligence whereas we possess something akin to 'room temperature' Scatter the other life forms IN BETWEEN those two points as makes you happy....

<<<<<Brainpower is not a prerequisite for survival.
Survival is for the fittest. Our history is proof that intelligence does not make a species the fittest. Other creatures on this earth have been here long before us and will remain long after we are gone.>>>>>

Why is it that certain people think we are somehow NOT part of nature, and what we do with it/to it/in it is unnatural as well?????
Your assumption we will ever be gone is one of those annoying statements because it is unproveable/dissprovable at the same time. (excuse my vocab, its late).
Look around the world at the trials and dangers Homo Sapiens face and tell me with a straight face mankind could have achieved this amount of dominance and success without our brainpower??? No it is not a pre-requisite in general but in our case it is almost a necessity ! And therefore is every bit as legitimate in making US fit, as camouflage is to another...
T

 

[rbpeake1]

Above Boiling

I think the whole point is missed, or rather ignored in this thread. Lets 'analogize' it this way. Virtually everything has a 'degree' of intelligence, as set forth by the definition sheri pointed out.
I would then venture to say that a tarantula posseses about "5 degrees Kelvin" of intelligence whereas we possess something akin to 'room temperature' T

I have been curious to meet creatures that have a 'degree' of intelligence above boiling.... What insights they might have, if we could even understand them! I would hope they treat us as well as we treat our T's!

 

[Wolfy72]

took my T out for a walk the other day,, and when i turned around it was gone,,, later found out she had been in the pool hall shootin a few games and havin a drink.
Tarantula to me means LOOK AT pets ONLY!

 

[Nerri1029]

Sorry... I just got an image in my head of your wife webbing up the place

Yes my wife has a lovely set of spinerettes.. EYES OFF !!

 

[stubby8th]

Want political views? OK, lets take the gloves off.

Why is it that certain people think we are somehow NOT part of nature, and what we do with it/to it/in it is unnatural as well?????
Your assumption we will ever be gone is one of those annoying statements because it is unproveable/dissprovable at the same time. (excuse my vocab, its late).
Look around the world at the trials and dangers Homo Sapiens face and tell me with a straight face mankind could have achieved this amount of dominance and success without our brainpower??? No it is not a pre-requisite in general but in our case it is almost a necessity ! And therefore is every bit as legitimate in making US fit, as camouflage is to another...
T

AMEN - a lone voice of reason in all this secular environmentalism!
They think man can come along, all by himself, and changed everything for the worse; that after hundreds of millions of years, the last two generations of human existance are going to destroy the planet. Who do you people think we are?
You all seem to think that all life-forms on the planet, other than human beings, peacefully coexist. But humans destroy, they say. This is foolish - not only because most animals and insects depend for their existance on consuming each other, but because humans are the only creatures capable of cleaning up the messes made by themselves and all other creatures.
The fact is, we couldn't destroy the Earth if we wanted to. Man can not even come close to creating the powerful destructive forces found in nature - yet these forces have been around for the same 4 billion years the Earth has - And the Earth is still here!
More than a decade ago, Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines spewed forth more than a thousand times the amount of ozone-depleting chemicals in one eruption than ALL the florocarbons manufactured by man, ever. Respected scientists predicted a 4% - 6% global loss of ozone, turned out to be temporary. But wait - valcanos have been doing this for 4 billion years, and guess what? We still have a healthy ozone!
Let me put this in simple terms for those of us who may be eco-challenged; mankind couldn't possibly match the output of even one eruption, let alone 4 billion years of them - so how could we destroy our ozone?

The Earth is not as fragile as some would have us to believe.

Let me be very clear, that when there is damage to the environment, there is no one who wants to fix it more than I do. However, I refuse to believe it is necessary to attack the American way of life; we don't have to punish progress in order to fix the environment. For a study in contrasts, take a look at the levels of pollution former Soviet Union and much of Eastern Europe. If you go there, you will see dead, not dying forests. You will see 3-eyed fish in streams. When no one owns private property, there is no incentive to keep it clean and pure because no one has a stake in keeping up it's value. No environmental reporting was allowed. We Americans, on the other hand, learn every time a spotted owl is accidentally toppled by some logger in Oregon.
The World has never seen anything like the United States of America. In higher education, economics, lifestyle, prosperity, form of government, and personal freedom, we are blessed with more and better than any other country. Yet we are continually criticized by the environmentalist and animal rights bunch who criticize our profit motive, even though it's given us the most sophisticated pollution-control technology in the world. Yes, the environment really is cleaner than ever. And no, animals do not have rights, but are accorded protection by human beings. Yet, we are confronted daily by people who wish to obstruct human progress and individual economic choises by virtue of elevating the importance of animal existence to that of human existence. The only way that this can happen is for the force of law to be used to devalue human life. I think it's time for some of us to speak up for the sanctity of human life and the glories of humankind, which was created in God's image. These dooms-day environmentalists such as Paul Ehrlich believes that the average American baby will pollute the planet a thousand times more than the average Ethiopian baby. Well, why don't they all pack up the kids and move to Ethiopia and raise them there? Heck, let's provide them with free transportation there. For the rest of us and our prosperity, let's do what we can to treat ourselves with the respect and dignity that God intended.

 

[Sheri]

Well written, but not the place...

Feel free to take it up with me May 11 when you gain access to the WH. Until then... please pick up the closest copy of "Hegemony of Survival" in prep.

For the record though... of course progress is a good thing but volcanos do not create nuclear warheads, biological agents, and SUV's.

Your faith in progress is charming. Until it is a matter of survival, or until technology to improve the environment is worth the same ounce for ounce as oil "progress" will be leaning weightily towards distraction, convenience, and expedience.



But really. Back on topic. Which is how intelligent we believe tarantulas to be. I think this horse though... is well beaten.