Tarantula brains (or lack thereof....)

[TriMac33]

A tarantula doesn't like you, or hate you; they do not develop an attitude that would result in them becoming defiant towards you; they do not associate you with being a non-threat; they don't enjoy your company; and they aren't even capable of being docile, or aggressive. All of those attributes require a certain amount of reasoning that they are just not capable of.

Do we really know that though, is what some people are saying. You can't say with absolute certainty that what you're stating is fact. Your opinions are only based on what we know up to this point in time, which isn't much in the area being discussed. Science reveals new findings all the time. They could very well be more complex than we currently think.

 

[Vanessa]

Do we really know that though, is what some people are saying. You can't say with absolute certainty that what you're stating is fact. Your opinions are only based on what we know up to this point in time, which isn't much in the area being discussed. Science reveals new findings all the time. They could very well be more complex than we currently think.

It's not my opinion though. I don't have a clue where you come up with stating that it's my opinion. The information is out there. I keep on responding to these threads with plenty of resources that people can read to help them understand and people just ignore them and claim that I am just stating an opinion.
I only WISH that it was my opinion that emotions required complex brain structures like amygdala and the frontal lobe cortex, because that would mean that I was literally immortal!! I only WISH that I could take credit for being the one who came up with that theory.
Good grief.

 

[Bob Lee]

A topic like this is always filled with people trying to do science and dreamers who can't take the truth.

An arachnid's nervous system is inferior to vertebrate's nervous system, that's why we can be so much bigger.
So it's extremely possible that they are simply incapable of doing things that we can.

As much as I hope my scorpions can love me back, it doesn't seem like that's ever going to happen.

 

[TriMac33]

A topic like this is always filled with people trying to do science and dreamers who can't take the truth.

An arachnid's nervous system is inferior to vertebrate's nervous system, that's why we can be so much bigger.
So it's extremely possible that they are simply incapable of doing things that we can.

As much as I hope my scorpions can love me back, it doesn't seem like that's ever going to happen.

Obviously they don't think exactly like we do or have complex emotions. Is it possible we don't know everything about how they "think"? I believe it's possible we don't know everything.

 

[EtienneN]

It appears we are really living in a “post truth” world. It’s wild that some people seem to think someone stating a fact that is contrary to their personal beliefs is somehow just stating a “wrong” opinion. I blame lack of education on the scientific method and never being taught the art of how to know what you know.

 

[TriMac33]

It appears we are really living in a “post truth” world. It’s wild that some people seem to think someone stating a fact that is contrary to their personal beliefs is somehow just stating a “wrong” opinion. I blame lack of education on the scientific method and never being taught the art of how to know what you know.

Never said it's "wrong." Can you not acknowledge we may not know everything? All I'm saying atleast.

 

[Feral]

Start with an easy one here: How Emotions are Made

"Emotions are created by our brain
Neuroscience research in past decades has shown that emotions do not have ‘fingerprints’ in the brain. Different networks in the brain can create the same emotion. And yes, emotions are created by our brain. It is the way our brain gives meaning to bodily sensations based on past experience. Different core networks all contribute at different levels to feelings such as happiness, surprise, sadness and anger."

It's not my opinion though. I don't have a clue where you come up with stating that it's my opinion. The information is out there. I keep on responding to these threads with plenty of resources that people can read to help them understand and people just ignore them and claim that I am just stating an opinion.
I only WISH that it was my opinion that emotions required complex brain structures like amygdala and the frontal lobe cortex, because that would mean that I was literally immortal!! I only WISH that I could take credit for being the one who came up with that theory.
Good grief.

I think the misunderstanding here is that your info doesn't prove what you think it does. The link you provided, for example, illustrates how human emotions come to be from mostly through explaining it from a cognitive perspective, and skipping over nearly all of the pertinent anatomy and phiosology. Like, that link is nearly all psychology, and we're over here in a whole different field, the land of biology. There are at least two problems with this: One, the link doesn't talk about where emotions may come from on a chemical, hormonal, and biological level in humans or any other animal and two, explaining how emotions happen cognitively in humans is a world away from saying it only happens in humans, negating the possibility of it evolving in other types of non-mammalian nervous systems. Proving one thing doesn't necessarily disprove another. If we based all we thought was possible only on what people are built to do, tarantulas wouldn't be able to respire or eat or perfuse or excrete or whatever because they've evolved entirely different systems for making those things happen.

The only thing we can say for "sure" is what has been proven in a controlled, objective environment by qualified people and then peer reviewed. And I can't so far find anything to say that either an emotional capacity and/or more intelligence than previously thought are absolutely ruled out in inverts, and quite a few things pointing to them as possibilities. (Likely or unlikely is a whole different can of worms.) I mean, there was a time we were convinced that inverts couldn't feel pain because they lack nociceptors, which are crucial in vertebrate pain perception, but we now know that's false and they just evolved a different way to do it. To be clear, it's accepted that there are a ton of things that we've already proven inverts can do (like the wasps who know and recognize the faces of every single wasp in their entire colony) but scientists, for the life of them, can't yet figure out how their nervous systems are capable of such feats.

So how can you claim to know what is and isn't possible of an invert's nervous system when qualified scientists that have been studying it for decades have yet to unravel all the mysteries?

 

[Bob Lee]

Your opinions are only based on what we know up to this point in time

I believe it's possible we don't know everything.

Ladies and gennnnnntlemen, I bring to you...

LOGIC!!!

You can't say with absolute certainty that what you're stating is fact.

Ah yes, a quantum biologist.

 

[TriMac33]

I think the misunderstanding here is that your info doesn't prove what you think it does. The link you provided, for example, illustrates how human emotions come to be from mostly through explaining it from a cognitive perspective, and skipping over nearly all of the pertinent anatomy and phiosology. Like, that link is nearly all psychology, and we're over here in a whole different field, the land of biology. There are at least two problems with this: One, the link doesn't talk about where emotions may come from on a chemical, hormonal, and biological level in humans or any other animal and two, explaining how emotions happen cognitively in humans is a world away from saying it only happens in humans, negating the possibility of it evolving in other types of non-mammalian nervous systems. Proving one thing doesn't necessarily disprove another. If we based all we thought was possible only on what people are built to do, tarantulas wouldn't be able to respire or eat or perfuse or excrete or whatever because they've evolved entirely different systems for making those things happen.

The only thing we can say for "sure" is what has been proven in a controlled, objective environment by qualified people and then peer reviewed. And I can't so far find anything to say that either an emotional capacity and/or more intelligence than previously thought are absolutely ruled out in inverts, and quite a few things pointing to them as possibilities. (Likely or unlikely is a whole different can of worms.) I mean, there was a time we were convinced that inverts couldn't feel pain because they lack nociceptors, which are crucial in vertebrate pain perception, but we now know that's false and they just evolved a different way to do it. To be clear, it's accepted that there are a ton of things that we've already proven inverts can do (like the wasps who know and recognize the faces of every single wasp in their entire colony) but scientists, for the life of them, can't yet figure out how their nervous systems are capable of such feats.

So how can you claim to know what is and isn't possible of an invert's nervous system when qualified scientists that have been studying it for decades have yet to unravel all the mysteries?

Thankyou!!! You spoke much more eloquently than I could. This is the point I'm trying to make.

Ladies and gennnnnntlemen, I bring to you...

LOGIC!!!

What exactly are you picking apart here?

 

[Feral]

A topic like this is always filled with people trying to do science and dreamers who can't take the truth.

An arachnid's nervous system is inferior to vertebrate's nervous system, that's why we can be so much bigger.

Your logic is flawed, re: biology. Nervous system complexity or capacity has little to nothing to do with evolution of size.

If that were true, then man... Those big dinosaurs must've been insanely intelligent. Wait, is Philosophical Velociraptor real?!

 

[Bob Lee]

Your logic is flawed, re: biology. Nervous system complexity or capacity has little to nothing to do with evolution of size.

Our nervous system transports signals much faster compared to arachnids

Which is why we are able to control a bigger body

High school biology, come on people.

What exactly are you picking apart here?

You said "I believe"
Implying it's an opinion
You are either fine with opinions or you aren't, can't have it both ways.

 

[EtienneN]

Oh boy, okay. @TriMac33 if it’s not a fact, what else is it? It’s a fact or a not fact that is literally the only true dual dichotomy here. If it’s a not fact it is therefore a falsehood or a partial falsehood. When you say to Vanessa “that’s just her opinion” you aren’t operating under the true rigors of scientific inquiry.

Also understand that science is never etched in stone. Science makes predictive models based on current data. If we found rabbit skeletons in the Precambrian, we would readily admit our knowledge of evolution was wrong. But so far we haven’t found that so we say evolution is a fact, the same way we say gravity is a fact. Science adapts and changes when it’s wrong.

 

[Feral]

[edit- Oops, I forgot to add the quote to which I was referring...
↑
@Bob Lee said:
"Our nervous system transports signals much faster compared to arachnids

Which is why we are able to control a bigger body

High school biology, come on people."[


That's not necessarily true. There are a number of factors limiting size in inverts, top of which are probably oxygenation and structural integrity. Since they have a passive, diffusion method of respiration, they don't get nearly as much oxygen as an active, convection method (vertebrate) would allow. (Interestingly, this is why Ts seem to "wear out" or "freeze" after a spurt of racing around- their circulatory system is such that during exercise it closes off venous return to the abdomen so that circulatory pressure builds and builds in the cephalothorax until the T can't exygenate its "brain" and kinda... well, gets light headed/almost passes out. It then stops to allow the system to reopen and reoxygenate his brainmeats.) And structurally, exoskeletons can only bear wear up to a certain size, which is why you usually only see the largest of the Arthropoda in the ocean.

 

[cold blood]

And this topic once again reaches its end....