T venom

[Widowman10]

i think it is much harder to support an absolute claim than to be on the safe (and accurate) side of a claim. to say something absolute like: "a healthy adult has NEVER died from scorp sting" is not good. it's one in a million (and we're not talking about death from allergy or anaphylaxis), but it's still a possibility and does not warrant an absolute claim.




anyway, end of rant/discussion. (except if it pops up in the scorp forum )

 

[SylverTear]

Not true at all. Some people are born with allergies. People with nut allergies are born with them, not developped, some people have the same with Ts.

Actually, on a side note, allergies CAN be developed. According to my allergist, the immune system changes several times throughout your lifetime.

In my case, I had no allergy issues until I turned about 18 or 19 at which point I suddenly began to get very sick all the time. I was tested for allergies previously and was allergic to some types of nuts. After being tested again, I was SEVERELY allergic to the state of Florida :wall:

Yet...I still live here lol.:?

Also, if you get bit by fire ants enough times over a long period of time, you can develop an allergy to them. If that is the case, you can get bit by one fire ant and go into anaphalactic shock, where before you could get bit by a dozen with only a minor irritation.

 

[Bill S]

It may need to be pointed out that no healthy adult has ever died due to a sting from a "hot" specie of scorpion.

As someone else pointed out, absolute statements like "never" are a bit out there. And as usual, proof of a negative is completely lacking. DrJ is making an extreme claim and under the premise that it's someone else's job to do the homework on this, otherwise he's correct. I don't buy that. DrJ, it's your job to present the evidence to support your claim. There's plenty of evidence out there that people have died from scorpion stings, and you haven't shown evidence that your narrow range of conditions is exempt. (You're already dancing around the term "healthy" - and I suppose it could be argued that a person who dies isn't healthy.)

On a slightly different drift from the original topic - there was an article in our local newspaper a few days ago about the seasonal rise in scorpion stings and spider bites. Yes, it did discuss the death of a child from a Centruroides sting. And it also mentioned that there had been four deaths from spider bite reported by the Arizona Health Services between 1995 and 2005.

To bring this back to topic, I should mention that all deaths reported here for either spider bite or scorpion sting were apparently due to toxic action by the venom, not to allergic reaction.

 

[Widowman10]

Actually, on a side note, allergies CAN be developed. According to my allergist, the immune system changes several times throughout your lifetime.

In my case, I had no allergy issues until I turned about 18 or 19 at which point I suddenly began to get very sick all the time. I was tested for allergies previously and was allergic to some types of nuts. After being tested again, I was SEVERELY allergic to the state of Florida :wall:

Yet...I still live here lol.:?

Also, if you get bit by fire ants enough times over a long period of time, you can develop an allergy to them. If that is the case, you can get bit by one fire ant and go into anaphalactic shock, where before you could get bit by a dozen with only a minor irritation.

yes, allergies do develop over time, no doubt about that. and multiple stings by a fire ant can cause an allergy. not always, but again, if anything is introduced into you twice, the possibility exists for a massive allergic reaction to it the second time, with anaphylactic shock occuring rare, but sometimes. it could even happen from the 100th to the 101st sting too, number of times does not have much to do with it from what i understand, it could potentially occur anytime.

To bring this back to topic, I should mention that all deaths reported here for either spider bite or scorpion sting were apparently due to toxic action by the venom, not to allergic reaction.

i'm not aware of the spider bite cases, but in the scorpion case (child), the venom would have caused the death, and not an allergic reaction.

interestingly, if they are filing deaths correctly, a person that dies from an allergic reaction would not be filed under scorpions or bees or whatever, but under anaphylaxis.

 

[D-back]

interestingly, if they are filing deaths correctly, a person that dies from an allergic reaction would not be filed under scorpions or bees or whatever, but under anaphylaxis.

I don't know the US system, but in my country, there is a primary, secundary and tertiary cause of death...in this case, I think the scorpion sting would be the tertiary cause of death...How do you do these statistics in the States?.........ajajaj.. we're going a bit off topic...

 

[Bill S]

i'm not aware of the spider bite cases, but in the scorpion case (child), the venom would have caused the death, and not an allergic reaction.

Perhaps you didn't read the last sentence in my posting?

To bring this back to topic, I should mention that all deaths reported here for either spider bite or scorpion sting were apparently due to toxic action by the venom, not to allergic reaction.

And to clarify what you said (if I'm interpreting it correctly), toxic action of the venom caused the death, and not an allergic reaction. That's slightly different than saying simply that the venom caused the death. If a person is allergic to the venom, and has an anaphylactic reaction to the venom, then venom would be the cause of death - but as an allergen rather than a toxin.

 

[D-back]

If a person is allergic to the venom, and has an anaphylactic reaction to the venom, then venom would be the cause of death - but as an allergen rather than a toxin.

Logically yes...but official statistics aren't always logical. If a doctor has to fill papers after the patient's death, he has to follow a certan protocol. In that case, in my country, I think the primary cause of death is the collapse of the circulation, the secondary is anaphylactic shock, the tertiary is envenomation....

 

[DrJ]

As someone else pointed out, absolute statements like "never" are a bit out there. And as usual, proof of a negative is completely lacking. DrJ is making an extreme claim and under the premise that it's someone else's job to do the homework on this, otherwise he's correct. I don't buy that. DrJ, it's your job to present the evidence to support your claim.

Just for your info, I have researched this out and have never once ran across anything that mentioned a healthy adult dying due to a scorpion sting...if I were to provide evidence of that, it would be hundreds of articles that only mention immunosuppressed, young, or elderly patients that died as a result. So, you demanding "proof" requires your doing the homework as well. How can one prove something that does not exist? If no healthy adult has died from a scorpion, that is not news. Only if a person dies, is it news.

The only spider I am aware of that brings any "risk of death" to healthy adults is the Atrax robustus (or Sydney Funnel Web Spider). Though there have not been any reports to look at exactly(still haven't found evidence to support that this creature has ever killed a healthy adult), this is considered the most dangerous. Most other "dangerous" spiders don't pose much threat to healthy adults.

I would say that the only reason this spider poses more threat than do other spiders or scorpions is in the amount of venom it is able to produce and inject. A large envenomation is more dangerous than a small one.

 

[wedge07]

The Brazilian Wandering spider is the world's most venomous spider and has caused many deaths, but the Sydney Funnel web is the most dangerous due to its aggressive nature.

 

[Bill S]

There are also deaths on record for different species of Loxosceles spiders. In Arizona the only two really significantly dangerous ones are Loxosceles (either arizonica or a couple other species) and black widows. The Article that cited 4 deaths in Arizona between 1995 and 2005 did not specify which species caused those deaths.

 

[Bill S]

... So, you demanding "proof" requires your doing the homework as well.

No, I am not in any way obligated to do any homework to support or refute your claims. The person making the claim should support their claim.

How can one prove something that does not exist?

My point precisely. You are making claims that cannot be supported. Hence, they do not carry a lot of weight.

It would be far more meaningful if you were able to cite actual statistics and sources. For example, if you could cite a study that investigated actual death reports in countries where records were kept of scorpion envenomations, and quote statistics that indicated that all adults who were treated for scorpion stings recovered - you'd have something. There are agencies that record such things in different countries, and organizations such as the World Health Organization that may maintain international records of scorpion stings. (I know they used to have records of snakebite deaths in many countries.) If you want to make credible claims about who dies or doesn't die from scorpion stings - do some research and provide data. No data - no credibility. And simply making an absolute statement and waiting for someone to challenge it won't convince anyone.

 

[DrJ]

The Brazilian Wandering spider is the world's most venomous spider and has caused many deaths, but the Sydney Funnel web is the most dangerous due to its aggressive nature.

More venomous, but not nearly as dangerous. The funnel web has a much greater capacity to kill.

There are also deaths on record for different species of Loxosceles spiders. In Arizona the only two really significantly dangerous ones are Loxosceles (either arizonica or a couple other species) and black widows. The Article that cited 4 deaths in Arizona between 1995 and 2005 did not specify which species caused those deaths.

Hmmmm…I doubt very highly that any of those deaths involved adults. No north American spider poses much threat to healthy adults.

No, I am not in any way obligated to do any homework to support or refute your claims. The person making the claim should support their claim.

The actual claim was that a healthy adult has died due to a scorpion sting…there is no evidence to support it. That being so, we can “claim” that no healthy adult has ever died due to the sting of a scorpion.

 

[the nature boy]

ok, first, thank you for posting a link. buuut, the link does nothing to support anything. all it talks about is 22 random stings in israel. ok? it says that 6 people died, all young. nothing about what we are talking about here (assuming that i understand everything correctly).

My bad. Not paying attention, thought the question was about human deaths due to scorps.

 

[Widowman10]

My bad. Not paying attention, thought the question was about human deaths due to scorps.

that's fine dude, no worries

thanks for posting a link though, that's always good.

 

[wedge07]

More venomous, but not nearly as dangerous. The funnel web has a much greater capacity to kill.

This is true. The funnel web will actually bite more than once.

 

[DrJ]

This is true. The funnel web will actually bite more than once.

And, if you watched Crocodile Dundee, we learned that a "funnel web spider can kill a man in 8 seconds, just by lookin' at him." lol.

*To our dismay, research has found this to be untrue, but highly amusing.

 

[WelshTan]

how can i put this. . .i think its quite hard to bring up actual statistics of "deaths contributed to T's or scorps" for a few reasons. . .1) all deaths wud have had to be documented and isted in books or on the internet.... 2) in "deprived" countries they simply do not always have the medical facilities, medical equiptment or knowlege to determine or document deaths . . .3) there are god knows how many people who have gone missing and died for their bodies to never be found or only found after serious decomposition has occurred. .. for example areas of africa where they dont have homes, toilets, food and wander for days n weeks in search of a little water. . .sadly some go missing, never return to their families, there is no knowing if they have died or for that reason what they have died from, whether it be malnutrition, exaustion, AIDS or for say a scorp sting. . .. there is simply no way that someone cud say "cos they havnt found any documented deaths they cant happen". . .people have to have put the information available to the public to find. . .if the info isnt there it mite simply mean that sumone hasnt made it available. . .dont bite my head off if u think i'm wrong but thats my opinion anyway

 

[WelshTan]

may i also add a point. . .. off the subject but a relevant comparison . . .i was adopted as my biological father committed murder wen i was a baby, he died before i cud "get the truth out of him" after i tracked him down. . he definitely went down for murder n spent 15yrs in jail, i have searched on the internet and in libraries for any documentaion n the news articles relating to the crime. . .i have found nothing n the crime happened 30 yrs ago. . .just because i cant find the media on it doesnt mean it didnt happen cos it did. . .thats y i think it wud be not right to say that no one has ever died from a scorp sting or T bite to be honest

 

[DrJ]

To get the best information, the law enforcement department where your dad was convicted and imprisoned should have a rather substantial amount of documentation on the case. There should also be a little snippet somewhere in a local newspaper (though, you'd have to dig through thousands in the library). The thing is, these things are never covered in detail by the news, so finding anything on it would be tough. I would suggest asking the law enforcement facility if you could see any records regarding the case, and explain that you are his daughter...you never know. What's the worst that could happen? Either they'd let you see some of it, or none of it.