T.Apophysis

[Stevo0]

Hi all,

One for the pros - I recently purchased an adult female T.Apophysis, I bought her from a great dealer at (www.theinsectshop.co.uk). The question is she looks exactly the same as my adult T blondi appart from being a little 'leggier' which I hear this sp. is supposed to be so the question: How do you tell the difference?

Btw i'm 100% sure it's an apophysis i'm not trying to say the guy got it is wrong incase he reads this , just wanted to know how to tell as I lust for knowledge!

Cheers all
Steve

 

[becca81]

I don't keep T. apophysis, but I've heard that T. blondi is a bit bulkier.

 

[Fince]

Hi all,

One for the pros - I recently purchased an adult female T.Apophysis, I bought her from a great dealer at (www.theinsectshop.co.uk). The question is she looks exactly the same as my adult T blondi appart from being a little 'leggier' which I hear this sp. is supposed to be so the question: How do you tell the difference?

Btw i'm 100% sure it's an apophysis i'm not trying to say the guy got it is wrong incase he reads this , just wanted to know how to tell as I lust for knowledge!

Cheers all
Steve

Hi!

You could be find here (French):

http://gea.free.fr/fiche t-apophysis.htm

 

[jbrd]

that is a very good quetion because i am suppose to have a T blondi and would like to know the difference myself ?

 

[Blasphemy]

As far as I know they're supposed to have pink toes (hence the common name Goliath pink toe) and all the pics I've seen of this species have pink toes but perhaps they loose that after a certain age. I dunno. http://giantspiders.com/T_apophysis_sling.html http://www.tarantulas.ru/photo/Theraphosa_apophysis.htm

 

[jbrd]

As far as I know they're supposed to have pink toes (hence the common name Goliath pink toe) and all the pics I've seen of this species have pink toes

from what i have read they lose there pink toes after they reach about five inches or so

 

[Greg Wolfe]

T. Apophysis...

Good question! Once you put these two side by side you can tell the difference. The Blondi IS much bulkier, providing it's a female. The apophysis is a little more slender in appearance with LONG legs. Another clue is that the Blondi fades into a light brown color, orange sometimes before shedding. Whereas the apophysis keeps the brown.
Juvie apophysis have pink feet (telotarsus) that dissapear when reaching 3-4 inches, hence goliath pinkfoot.
In my experience, the apophysis has the worst arsenal of urticating hairs, even worse than the lasiodora family. I use long latex gloves when messing around with my adult female. I have a pic of my female somewhere, let me find it. She is in the thread "The worst urticating hairs".

 

[shogun804]

hey greg after reading this thread i was inspired to do a search i found it for you, everyone i give you good thread and a picture of a huge huge T very nice greg :clap: anyway after reading that thread i noticed you said she was pushing the 10" mark do you suspect a molt anytime soon?

 

[Deschain]

from what i have read they lose there pink toes after they reach about five inches or so

I have a juvi., that is going to molt soon, and if she keeps at the same rate per molt thus far, she'll be 5"...or at least very close, so I guess I'll find out soon. She still has the pink feet, although not a bright as they were. They do appear to be fading.

 

[Windchaser]

My juvie that is around the 4.5" mark has just the slightest hint of pink on her legs. I imagine she will completely loose her pink after he next molt.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Good question! Once you put these two side by side you can tell the difference. The Blondi IS much bulkier, providing it's a female. The apophysis is a little more slender in appearance with LONG legs. Another clue is that the Blondi fades into a light brown color, orange sometimes before shedding. Whereas the apophysis keeps the brown.
Juvie apophysis have pink feet (telotarsus) that dissapear when reaching 3-4 inches, hence goliath pinkfoot.
In my experience, the apophysis has the worst arsenal of urticating hairs, even worse than the lasiodora family. I use long latex gloves when messing around with my adult female. I have a pic of my female somewhere, let me find it. She is in the thread "The worst urticating hairs".

All of the above clues to what species is which are highly variable except for the pink tarsus and metatarsus. Especially the color before a molt. I've seen from experience that there are times when there are no real color differences between the two before a molt. Of course it could happen so I can't totally contradict Greg on that. Although there could be a clue substantial enough to differenciate between the two species in adult size, one would need several fully grown specimens of each to really tell. And even then they all would probably need to be raised from juvies to know for sure which ones had the pink feet. If anything a very expensive and time consuming ordeal.

I can't provide solid facts on the differences between the two species, but I can presume because the male papal bulb morphology and female spermatheca morphology are the same (**), the only differences are the juvenile color and the male having the tibial spur. Of course there are probably other characteristics such as leg spination, labial mounds, differences in urticating hair types and placement, or whatever else was a popular taxonomic tool at the time. But then again, does anyone here really use microscopes to ID their spiders to make a decision on such minute characteristics?

I realize this doesn't really help in determining which is which but I hope I prevented some folks from trying to ID their spider from pictures that don't say much. Or trying yet again to make an identification based on color. There's nothing wrong with labeling your giant spider Theraphosa sp. if you don't know.

If I can make a request here, can some one please send me the description of Theraphosa apophysis and the revision of Psuedotheraphosa? I understand they're not in english, but I can have a machine translate!

- Lonnie

(**) Systematic Revision and Cladistic Anaylysis of Theraphosinae; 1996 Mygalomorph; 1:33-68; Perez-Miles, F et. al.

 

[FryLock]

I can't provide solid facts on the differences between the two species, but I can presume because the male papal bulb morphology and female spermatheca morphology are the same (**)

(**) Systematic Revision and Cladistic Anaylysis of Theraphosinae; 1996 Mygalomorph; 1:33-68; Perez-Miles, F et. al.

That was in reference to large differences at the genus level as at the time apophysis was Pseudotheraphosa they are both Theraphosa.sp now from drawings id say both species have very similar palpal bulbs and embolus but there spermatheca are not.

Edit: @Lonnie just had morning coffee instead tea and came over all non-sarcastic , sorry if that remark sounded snotty it’s just my understanding that the paper meant that there were no major differences the papal bulbs and spermatheca of the two species that were at the time in two different genera (i.e. non so large as say Acanthoscurria vs Brachypelma), anyone that takes time to read papers has my respect :worship:.

 

[Heartfang]

Would the temperment of the two species differ? Is so, then I guess you could almost tell by that.

 

[jbrd]

what are the chances i was sold a T.Apophysis instead of a T. Blondi ?

 

[Stevo0]

chances are you wouldn't have been sold an apophysis since they are very rare in captivity (or so I beleive) therefor it's more than likely it's a blondi.

Cheers for the info all

 

[hooale]

chances are you wouldn't have been sold an apophysis since they are very rare in captivity (or so I beleive) therefor it's more than likely it's a blondi.

Well i have to correct you here. Someone in germany is selling a lot of big apophysis. So i wouldn't call them rare.

 

[Greg Wolfe]

hey greg after reading this thread i was inspired to do a search i found it for you, everyone i give you good thread and a picture of a huge huge T very nice greg :clap: anyway after reading that thread i noticed you said she was pushing the 10" mark do you suspect a molt anytime soon?

She is due this summer for her next shed. I will take photos and post them.
Regarding the ID between blondi and apophysis- If you put one of each side by side I could tell the difference, but that's just me.
Nothing is cut in stone with color fade before shedding, but I have witnessed my two adult female blondi's get very light brown right before shedding, whereas my apophysis kept her brown.
Dissimilarity is varied, I agree. I was referring to my individuals and not the entire cake here. Quality ventral and dorsal photos would be ideal for better clarity, but I can distinguish between the two.

 

[jbrd]

Regarding the ID between blondi and apophysis- If you put one of each side by side I could tell the difference, but that's just me.
Nothing is cut in stone with color fade before shedding, but I have witnessed my two adult female blondi's get very light brown right before shedding, whereas my apophysis kept her brown.

i guess i will have to try and get a apophysis and see the difference for myself

Dissimilarity is varied, I agree. I was referring to my individuals and not the entire cake here. Quality ventral and dorsal photos would be ideal for better clarity, but I can distinguish between the two.

if i posted pics of her ventral and dorsal would you be able to see if she is a T. Blondi ?
she usually walks around at about 3 am so i should be able to get pics then :?

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

That was in reference to large differences at the genus level as at the time apophysis was Pseudotheraphosa they are both Theraphosa.sp now from drawings id say both species have very similar palpal bulbs and embolus but there spermatheca are not.

Edit: @Lonnie just had morning coffee instead tea and came over all non-sarcastic , sorry if that remark sounded snotty it’s just my understanding that the paper meant that there were no major differences the papal bulbs and spermatheca of the two species that were at the time in two different genera (i.e. non so large as say Acanthoscurria vs Brachypelma), anyone that takes time to read papers has my respect :worship:.

I didn't take it as sarcastic at all. I guess I forgot to include that the paper actually only went to generic level. Even though T. apophysis was in the genus Puesudotheraphosa at the time of publication, it would still be relevant to comparing the differences between T. blondi and T. apophysis only because it is written that there are indeed differences between the two; even if they are written as two seperate genera. For example the stridulatory seatae on coxa 2 in Psuedotheraphosa which is absent in Theraphosa (pg. 68). (Once again I overlooked throwing that in the first post I made.) For whatever reasons Puesdotheraphosa was synonimized with Theraphosa (gee i wish i had those papers), one can still tell which species is which based on the Perez-Miles et. al. paper. It would just be an incomplete comparison. In other words, because Pseudotheraphosa = Theraphosa now, one can pretty much refer to the expired genus as just Theraphosa apophysis. Even though it would be incorrect to refer to T. apophysis as P. apophysis. Wow, that must sound confusing. If any of that is unclear please tell me. I have difficulty explaining my thought process.

Where have you seen drawings/ photographs of the two species' spermathecae? I couldn't find a drawing of one for T. apophysis in the Perez-Miles paper. Just a description saying under Theraphosa pg. 59, "Differs from the other Theraphosinae, except Pseudotheraphosa, in the morphology of the palpal bulb and spermathecae..." If there is a major difference, where could I see/ read it? Please tell me so I don't have to refer to that outdated "generic level" paper anymore.

I consider this a good discussion, not an argument.

- Lonnie

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

For example the stridulatory seatae on coxa 2 in Psuedotheraphosa which is absent in Theraphosa (pg. 68).

- Lonnie

For those who missed it, the above characteristic can be seen with a shed excuvia (at the larger instars) under a microscope to tell for sure if you have a Theraphosa blondi or Theraphosa apophysis. Even though it was written as a generic difference, the fact is T. blondi does not have the stridulatory setae on coxa 2 but T. apophysis does.

- Lonnie