Sudden Avicularia Death?

[viper69]

Is it simply not yet defined, or is there a real species name for it but nobody knows/uses it?

It's not defined, I wouldn't steer you wrong on that. Too many Avics and Ts are not defined but in the hobby as you know. It really is A. sp. amazonica

Thanks for the pic and details, that's an AMAC style container.

Based on your description I can't say I would have done anything different. I too would think it's poop, having observed that "liquid cement" come out hah. However, I have not observed it "dumping" out.

I don't know what happened, but from your description I don't think you did anything wrong in your basic husbandry.

Perhaps the level of ventilation played a role in this, but I cannot say for certain. All of my containers have cross ventilation, where yours appears to have only point of ventilation, the screen vent. I did raise an Avic sling in a container w/only 1 screen at one point, and while it grew out of the container at some point, it did in fact mature and live just fine. I don't recommend this currently.

The fact that it was eating and behaved/looked normal suggests to me that perhaps something it ate caused this OR, just like people, something went wrong internally for reasons unknown. Not all animals are going to make it to adulthood.

Sorry this wasn't more helpful.

 

[viper69]

It's most likely the same enclosure as a few of my enclosure photos floating around are Jamie's enclosures as well. They have worked well for me with no modification.

I did note that you had trouble with opening the enclosure. This style enclosure is best utilized by gluing the corkbark/plants to the inside of the big part of the enclosure with hot glue. This way you can open it from the bottom without all the corkbark/plants falling all over the place. It allows you to put a water dish in the bottom part. You can put food in there easily as well. I'd recomend you mod your's to work this way and it'll make you life a lot easier.

Like this(the enclosure is bigger but the idea is the same):

If your dish is drying out too quickly you can move to a bigger/deeper dish. Or add some moisture to your substrate. You mainly just don't want to add so much that condensation builds up on the enclosure which would mean you have too much moisture for the ventilation your enclosure has.


The fluid out idf it's mouth is most like liquid used for grooming. The other end was poop.


I've used 5 or more of these single screen enclosures with my Avics with no trouble. This is one of the reasons I think adequate ventilation is more important then cross ventilation. As long as you have enough ventilation that condensation is not building up you should be fine. You don't want a swamp.

With his statement of the enclosure was drying out too much I'd go with dehydration being the most likely cause of the problem IMO.

He had his inverted, wasn't sure if you noticed? Nice pic, if the herp show has some cork flat, I'm going to get some thanks to you

 

[Trenor]

He had his inverted, wasn't sure if you noticed? Nice pic, if the herp show has some cork flat, I'm going to get some thanks to you

Ha ha, it's good stuff man.

I was going off this photo with my comments where the small part is on the bottom like it should be. Was there another photo that I missed?

 

[viper69]

This way you can open it from the bottom

When I saw the very beginning of this section of your writing and then this statement, I thought perhaps you didn't think his container was inverted, hence my question.

I saw some honeycomb yesterday and thought of you and your parents yesterday hahah

 

[Trenor]

When I saw the very beginning of this section of your writing and then this statement, I thought perhaps you didn't think his container was inverted, hence my question.

Ahh yeah, I saw where he was talking about modding the screen so he could feed through it without opening the bottom. I assumed it was because all the bark/plants moved when he did that.

I saw some honeycomb yesterday and thought of you and your parents yesterday hahah

They took off about 15 gallons of honey the other day during all the hot weather. They have a few more haves to do and then they'll be helping members of the bee club with their hives. It was a decent year for them over all.

 

[viper69]

They took off about 15 gallons of honey the other day during all the hot weather. They have a few more haves to do and then they'll be helping members of the bee club with their hives. It was a decent year for them over all.

What happens of bee owners don't remove the honey, I would think nothing?

 

[Trenor]

What happens of bee owners don't remove the honey, I would think nothing?

The bees generally just keep it stock piled for when they need it. Most keepers leave them with plenty of honey to winter over and to start the new season off. It can cause them to downsize the hive for winter slower. If they have too much the next year the queen will ramp up quickly and they will swarm expecting conditions to be good for more colonies to start up.

They are very interesting but that's enough thread derailing on bees. Toss something out in the watering hole and we'll talk it up.

 

[cold blood]

What's stale air?

Seriously, you really just wrote that??

All of my Avic slings (1/2" and up) get a 16 oz deli cup, with 2 or 3 rings of small hole around the upper sides (none on the lid). Inside is an inch of dry substrate, small piece of cork, a piece of plastic plant and a small plastic water bowl (lid from a 16 oz water bottle) that's discarded when it gets fouled. This is what you need to be doing.

+1

This enclosure type is so much better than the comparatively expensive one you bought that I don't even see it as a close comparison. Follow this advice with your next one.

Why is everyone so against a quick mist for drinking? Not all spider's will go to their water dishes.

Agreed, but the issue lies in the fact that so many people over-mist, soaking the enclosure...how many pics have we seen where it looks like a monsoon just hit the enclosure...too many to count. That's not misting, its flooding and an all too common mistake many make with a mister.

But I totally agree, a light spritz on webbing or the wall is quite effective in providing drinking water if done lightly and not too often....I will put a few drops on webbing about once a week to once every other week. The droplets last just long enough for the t to get a drink with a nice properly light spritz...using a syringe to just drop individual droplets on the web or wall is a more fool proof way to water for a newb IMO.

The only thing that I would have done differently would be to add more ventilation to the sides. I have heard of a lot of folks that use Jamie's enclosures without issue though.

Yeah, trenor used them without issue, but that doesn't mean they are ideal...in fact, I wouldn't touch those things with a 10 ft pole....screen venting like that just screams over-ventilated to me...adding more venting wouldn't help. A deli cup, set up as poec54 described is a far far better vessel for raising avic slings. Do note that trenor's set up utilized drilled holes and not the mesh venting system, this is a more appropriately ventilated enclosure than the one the op is/was using.



Not only that, but the set up its self wasn't ideal. The leaned wood was ok, but the plants were 1. too few, and 2. located in entirely the wrong place....plants should surround the mid to upper parts of the wood, this is where an avic makes its home, not at ground level where your plants were. More plants, properly located, would almost certainly result in a lot more webbing. In fact, creating a web tube is pretty critical for an avics short and long term survival, you just need to give them the right tools, in the right places to facilitate this webbing. The more cover you can offer, the easier and more elaborate their webbing will be....this sling didn't really have that opportunity.

I've never had an issue keeping avic slings alive, with them, its all about the set up.

 

[Trenor]

Do note that trenor's set up utilized drilled holes and not the mesh venting system, this is a more appropriately ventilated enclosure than the one the op is/was using.

Here you go.

I just grabbed the other photo because I could get to it easier. I do admit that I prefer drilled over the mesh but both have worked out good. The screen enclosure does dry out faster but by adding a deeper water dish (not the one shown) I was able to ensure the T had access to water at all times while not having to water it more then most of the other enclosures. I have since added in some more fake leaves on the one side but the Avic webbed quickly even before then.

The Avic I had in here was moved to the enclosure I posted above a week or so ago and is webbing and hunting it's food good so far.

I like these enclosures for their look. To me they display better then the deli cups. For ease of setup and when one has a lot of Ts the deli cups are much easier to setup and get right.

I've never had an issue keeping avic slings alive, with them, its all about the set up.

I can't agree with this enough. If the setup isn't right Avics will not do well.

 

[viper69]

This enclosure type is so much better than the comparatively expensive one you bought that I don't even see it as a close comparison. Follow this advice with your next one.

I use both 32 oz deli cups and inverted AMAC boxes for Avics.

All things being equal, they each have their own plus/minus list. I don't think one is inherently better when it comes to T husbandry. An abbreviated list of +'s that come quickly to my mind

Deli Cups
1. Easier to clean
2. Cheaper
3. Easier to make holes in

Inverted AMAC boxes
1. Easier to feed your T
2. Less of an issue with destroying Avic tube/canopy when opening the lid
3. Significantly less chance of Avic escape during husbandry due to lid being on the bottom

 

[pariahsp84]

I keep multiple avicularia and I've only lost 3 in total. 1 minatrix to a bad molt, 1 versi to dehydration, and most recently I lost a 3.5in versi to who knows what. All of my avics are in 1 gal cereal containers from walmart with 2-3 rows of ventilation holes that wrap the top. Sometimes your just gunna lose a specimen. It sucks something fierce especially when their at a larger size and you've made it past that 1inch danger zone. My 3.5in versi molted fine and was in its tube web and then bam, just like that. The substrate was damp,but not wet and proper vents. This is just a fragile species. All my other avicularia thrive. So you just never know.

 

[cold blood]

I like these enclosures for their look. To me they display better then the deli cups. For ease of setup and when one has a lot of Ts the deli cups are much easier to setup and get right.


I can't agree with this enough. If the setup isn't right Avics will not do well.

For me, the functionality of the enclosure takes precedence over the display characteristics...for me, its about the t and the t's well being, display means little next to that.....I'd rather have a living, healthy spider....hence my love for deli cups and setrilite.

 

[Trenor]

For me, the functionality of the enclosure takes precedence over the display characteristics...for me, its about the t and the t's well being, display means little next to that.....I'd rather have a living, healthy spider....hence my love for deli cups and setrilite.

I agree with you there. Nothing is more important then the Ts health. Though if you can have both then that's good too.

Regardless of the enclosure you use if it's set up poorly then the Avic is going to have a bad time.

 

[Poec54]

What is funny about misting that has been parroted for years is it evaporates too quickly and doesn't provide a long term humidity solution. You are saying the exact opposite. So which is it? Nothing wrong with a quick spritz for drinking off leaves, cork, sides and web.

I think you are underestimating people too much. It really is common sense like majority of husbandry. These type posts are really a small minority compared to the people keeping Avicularia without issues.

What I'm referring to is misting not being available for long for drinking purposes (nowhere near as long as a water bowl), with the problem being it can accumulate in the substrate and the owner not realize it until things are soggy.

I'd like to think that I underestimate people too, but we've seen thread after thread about dead Avics, more than any other genera. They die because people new to Avics, or new to the hobby, often don't know what they need, and what happens when moisture and ventilation aren't in balance. There's a lot of bad care advice online, and people trust them.

 

[viper69]

For me, the functionality of the enclosure takes precedence over the display characteristics

For sure, but you can have both and have a T that thrives too

 

[cold blood]

Inverted AMAC boxes
1. Easier to feed your T
2. Less of an issue with destroying Avic tube/canopy when opening the lid
3. Significantly less chance of Avic escape during husbandry due to lid being on the bottom

1. Peeling a small area back is both easier and less intrusive than pulling those boxes apart. Being above also allows you to feed by dropping prey onto their webbing, as opposed to below it...yeah they hunt, the amex boxes are just fine here, no doubt, but to say they're easier, just doesn't make sense. I can drop a cricket in in about 2 or 3 seconds with little effort.

2. The lids are pliable, and can therefore you can choose the spot to peel back, not wrecking the web like you would with a rigid top. I had one where the tube went all the way around, I just peeled the lid back, made a small hole in the web, and replaced the top...the web was no worse for wear.

3. I've never even had a close call with an avic escaping, its not even something I think about.

 

[cold blood]

For sure, but you can have both and have a T that thrives too

Of course, that's indisputable...I just think for a lot of people the look takes too much precedence...and the functionality not enough...people are always looking for and spending more money on things to improve on the deli cup, but the best they can do is being equal to the deli cup....fruitless efforts and money wasted...JMO.

 

[viper69]

1. Peeling a small area back is both easier and less intrusive than pulling those boxes apart. Being above also allows you to feed by dropping prey onto their webbing, as opposed to below it...yeah they hunt, the amex boxes are just fine here, no doubt, but to say they're easier, just doesn't make sense. I can drop a cricket in in about 2 or 3 seconds with little effort.

2. The lids are pliable, and can therefore you can choose the spot to peel back, not wrecking the web like you would with a rigid top. I had one where the tube went all the way around, I just peeled the lid back, made a small hole in the web, and replaced the top...the web was no worse for wear.

3. I've never even had a close call with an avic escaping, its not even something I think about.

Sort of

1/2. Lifting the deli cup lid is easier generally, and does in fact expose less of the container's perimeter than an inverted box no doubt. But, at least for me, when my Avic makes a nice canopy/tube and connects it to the lid, then I'm always intruding on them. Also, even if the tube is vertical, more often than not the Avic is on top, and many times for me at least, on the lid, or goes to the lid at times when lid is opened. In short, they go up, more than they go down for safety in my observations. Ultimately they go anywhere up/down etc to get away of course.

3. I've had close escapes, more so from my deli cups than my inverted amac boxes.

I'm not saying one type is better than they other, just they have different strengths/weaknesses. All of which are primarily dependent upon the owner. Maybe I'm more "rough" w/my Avics and you have a more gentle touch, thus never having issue deli cup escapes etc.

IMO the only things definitely better w/deli cups is their price, and ease of making holes.

 

[viper69]

Of course, that's indisputable...I just think for a lot of people the look takes too much precedence...and the functionality not enough

Ah I see...yeah I totally agree. I see the same thing in the herp world. "I'll get this (insert fancy item)", w/out thinking about if they need it etc. Some things don't change.

 

[Crone Returns]

Ahh yeah, I saw where he was talking about modding the screen so he could feed through it without opening the bottom. I assumed it was because all the bark/plants moved when he did that.


They took off about 15 gallons of honey the other day during all the hot weather. They have a few more haves to do and then they'll be helping members of the bee club with their hives. It was a decent year for them over all.

Go bees go! Rah rah rah.