spider bite report - can anyone attempt an identification?

[ctenid]

A grocery store employee was bitten on his left middle finger by what he described as "a small, dark brownish or black spider no larger than a quarter" while unpacking a banana crate in Hannafords, a grocery store here in New Hampshire. According to him, the spider crawled inside his plastic glove and bit him causing immediate sharp pain "like a
shard of glass" but it unfortunately got away. His finger suffered massive swelling along with pain that radiated up his entire arm.

He told me there was no lesion that would match a necrotic event, just tremendous swelling - he had no systemic effects but his finger is almost useless and now, 18 months after the bite, is still badly swollen to the point, its permanently disfigured from the joint following the first phalanx down to the first metacarpal joint and about twice the width of his matching right hand finger. Since he apparently didn't suffer from a deep necrotic wound, what type of spider could have inflicted the massive swelling, radiating pain up the arm, and render the finger useless 18 months after the bite? He said the banana boxes were either from Honduras or Costa Rica but was unsure plus the color and size of the spider does not match any species of Loxosceles, Latrodectus or any other type of small species. Normally, this could have easily been caused by a tropical Lycoside or other larger spiders like the Ctenids, etc. but his identification of a "small quarter size spider" eliminates all the larger species.

Based on his description, the only spiders from Honduras, Costa Rica or South America that are small and could deliver a painful, dangerous bite (that I am aware of) would be Loxosceles Laeta and related speces, Latrodectus or its look alike Steatoda, a nasty jumping spider called "Johnson's Jumping spider or possibly Chriocanthium (which is common to the US) but their bites create symptoms markedly different from from what he described. As stated,assuming what he told me was accurate; he had NO systemic neurological effects, NO necrosis, and no other common symptoms associated with spider venom. His finger almost resembles the residual damage from a venomous snake bite.

Could it be an unknown species? Could have possibly been a baby Phoneutria like nigriventer or possibly a baby sized Cupiennius? What spider venom induces such destructive tissue and bone deformation but not a necrotic lesion or neurological symptoms? Any ideas?

Thank you,

Jeff

 

[Malhavoc's]

far too many variables to even try an identification IMO, one of the biggies is that your basing the systamatic damage from the bite, and not a secondary infection reaction etc, Hell it could even of been something in the glove and not the spider. Atop of all of it the description of the spider is too vague.

 

[ctenid]

He (the victim) told me there were not any systemic effects. He was emphatic that the pain was immediate in the local bite zone which now makes me suspect a baby Lycoside, Phoneutria, or some other Ctenid especially since their venom contains large amounts of serotonin. Of course, a Phoneutria is endowed with some of the most virulent neurotoxic venom on earth but who knows if its any different in immature form but certainly, other Ctenids contain some nasty venom if not necessarily dangerous. Some Lycosides have been reported to inflict painful bites resulting in either necrotic lesions or bad swelling.
He told me, in explicit detail that the finger swelled up immediately, followed by unbearable pain that radiated up his left arm (9 on a scale of 0-10) which points suspiciously to serotonin. His plastic gloves were new but he thought he felt something crawl into the glove as he was unpacking. I interrogated him about whether or not he suffered any necrotic effects in lay terms but he insisted there was no lesion, just a bit of redness. That said, his finger is now totally disfigured and the joint following the first phalanx is disfigured with what looks like substantial fluid with the remaining tissue swollen to about twice the width of his opposite right hand third finger.
A baby Ctenid, Lycoside or Dolomedes etc. regardless of the genus, could certainly have broken through a plastic glove and various Ctenids, excluding the extremely dangerous Phoneutria, like Cupiennius, can certainly induce swelling depending on the individuals reaction.
Sure, it could have been a bad bacterial infection but that usually results in a necrotic lesion at the bite site which he didn't have. Yes, his description was poor, but as usual, the event triggered a rush of adrenalin and his first reaction was to pull off his glove, then he "saw the spider fall to the floor where it quickly ran under the fruit counter and was never found". Under repeated questioning, he maintained that it was "no larger than a quarter" with a darkish brown or black color. He could give me no morphological info relating to its shape, size of abdomen, etc..
So, your correct that in terms of physical features, there is nothing to go on except its size and color. Suffice to say, the general public knows squat about spiders and most don't even differentiate between insects and arachnids. I find that the public in general, are grossly undereducated in biology, ecology and general vertebrate and invertebrate classification. To most humans, a spider is a "bug" and a dolphin is a "fish". No wonder this country is going backwards

 

[The Snark]

What you are describing is typical of a hemotoxin. To be precise, the exact immediate symptoms I suffered from a rattlesnake bite. But the continued edema is out of all known norms of toxins and sounds like a patient specific reaction. Has he had biopsy's of the tissue?
I read a morbidity report long ago of a person who was poisoned by a toxin and developed an allergy to his own cell regrowth as modified by the latent toxin effects. That was some sort of laboratory toxin, not an animal.

 

[Ciphor]

All I can add is I would probably remove Dolomedes & Lycosidae from possible suspects. I couldn't imagine even an immature one would hang out in the fruits of a tree, they hang out closer to ground level and keep their retreats low as well. The spider would more likely be arboreal to an extreme like Phoneutria spp. & Ctenidae spp.

Also given the extent of the pain and damage, it is not consistent with the vast majority of bites from Dolomedes & Lycosidae, while nasty bites are not uncommon among Phoneutria & Ctenidae. There are always exceptions, I personally try and leave exceptions out of the hypothesis.

Phoneutria sp. are called banana spiders due to how frequently they are encountered in banana trees and the shipments from those trees, to me, that in itself makes it the highest level suspect.

My novice 2 cents

 

[ctenid]

Hi, yes, as I stated (or thought I did) it could have been a baby "immature" Phoneutria, Heteropoda, or other Ctenid genera of some type. By the way, I am very well acquainted with Phoneutria especially since I fleshed out the entire original Wikipedia text on the "Brazilian Wandering Spider" years ago, specifically referring to P. fera and P. nigriventer and was the one who started the whole thing about the levels of serotonin in their venom plus citing the pharmacological tests of Phoneutria venom conducted back in the 70s from the book Venomous Animals and their Venoms, vol. III, ed. Wolfgang Bücherl and Eleanor Buckley which clearly showed Phoneutria toxin was far more potent to rodents than either Atrax robustus or Latrodectus and so on. This book is one of the best on the subject and is highly recommended!

After years of others editing, the main ideas have remained in tact and have strangely been disseminated all over the place where the toxicity of Phoneutria venom is discussed. The reason I did that many years ago was because originally, the material on Phoneutria was totally erroneous. I had originally learned of P. fera and nigriventer from an arachnologist I once worked for in Washington DC and later from obscure books on the subject of arthropod venom. It seems now that Phoneutria has become a virtual super star of spider venom That said, to me, excluding the thousands of species yet discovered (as an arachnologist just told me "there are thousands of species just in Honduras, Costa Rica and San Salvador that could probably fill an encyclopedia of medically important, venomous spiders") as of now, the top 4 heavy weights in the category of spiders "dangerous" to man are (in terms of pure toxicity levels as measured in lab experiments using mice)
1. Phoneutria fera and P. nigriventer (possibly other unknown Ctenids)
2. Atrax robustus and their close relatives within the mygalomorph sub order
3. Latrodectus and their world wide sub species
4. Loxosceles reclusa, laeta and other related spp.

Suffice to say, there are many others that can deliver unpleasant bites ranging from systemic illness, necrotic lesions or nasty bacterial infections but the above are the best known spiders of medical importance. Atrax of course injects more venom and is the pitbull of spiders but drop for drop, its Phoneutria that wins the lab contest for pure, toxic virulence. Apparently, due to frequent erroneous identification, many other spider bites producing less that life threatening symptoms are mistakenly attributed to Phoneutria when its usually a less dangerous spider such as a Loxosceles, lycoside, dolomedes, etc. or other Ctenids with milder venom. It could also be true that Phoneutria occasionally delivers a so called "dry bite" or injects less venom depending on the circumstances where conversely, the far more primitive Atrax, delivers a full load every time or tries. Bottom line is, when and if a Phoneutria, specifically fera or nigriventer do inject a large load, the victim is in a world of hurt and possibly life threatening circumstances.
Despite what some nay sayers posit, the British chef that was bitten by a Phoneutria a few years ago (he did save the specimen that was according to most accounts, positively identified) almost died of cardiac arrest hours after he was bitten, clearly demonstrate this spider's toxicity. My rule of thumb is, don't allow any spider to make contact, if for no other reason than the fact, all humans react differently based upon age, immune system, general sensitivity and the possibility of a bacterial pathogen etc.. For instance some people love to say that Cupiennius, another large, very creepy looking Ctenid is totally harmless and while it may be true in terms of its venom toxicity, would you really take a chance and let that beast bite you? I don't think so

 

[Ciphor]

Hi, yes, as I stated (or thought I did) it could have been a baby "immature" Phoneutria, Heteropoda, or other Ctenid genera of some type. By the way, I am very well acquainted with Phoneutria especially since I fleshed out the entire original Wikipedia text on the "Brazilian Wandering Spider" years ago, specifically referring to P. fera and P. nigriventer and was the one who started the whole thing about the levels of serotonin in their venom plus citing the pharmacological tests of Phoneutria venom conducted back in the 70s from the book Venomous Animals and their Venoms, vol. III, ed. Wolfgang Bücherl and Eleanor Buckley which clearly showed Phoneutria toxin was far more potent to rodents than either Atrax robustus or Latrodectus and so on. This book is one of the best on the subject and is highly recommended!

After years of others editing, the main ideas have remained in tact and have strangely been disseminated all over the place where the toxicity of Phoneutria venom is discussed. The reason I did that many years ago was because originally, the material on Phoneutria was totally erroneous. I had originally learned of P. fera and nigriventer from an arachnologist I once worked for in Washington DC and later from obscure books on the subject of arthropod venom. It seems now that Phoneutria has become a virtual super star of spider venom That said, to me, excluding the thousands of species yet discovered (as an arachnologist just told me "there are thousands of species just in Honduras, Costa Rica and San Salvador that could probably fill an encyclopedia of medically important, venomous spiders") as of now, the top 4 heavy weights in the category of spiders "dangerous" to man are (in terms of pure toxicity levels as measured in lab experiments using mice)
1. Phoneutria fera and P. nigriventer (possibly other unknown Ctenids)
2. Atrax robustus and their close relatives within the mygalomorph sub order
3. Latrodectus and their world wide sub species
4. Loxosceles reclusa, laeta and other related spp.

Suffice to say, there are many others that can deliver unpleasant bites ranging from systemic illness, necrotic lesions or nasty bacterial infections but the above are the best known spiders of medical importance. Atrax of course injects more venom and is the pitbull of spiders but drop for drop, its Phoneutria that wins the lab contest for pure, toxic virulence. Apparently, due to frequent erroneous identification, many other spider bites producing less that life threatening symptoms are mistakenly attributed to Phoneutria when its usually a less dangerous spider such as a Loxosceles, lycoside, dolomedes, etc. or other Ctenids with milder venom. It could also be true that Phoneutria occasionally delivers a so called "dry bite" or injects less venom depending on the circumstances where conversely, the far more primitive Atrax, delivers a full load every time or tries. Bottom line is, when and if a Phoneutria, specifically fera or nigriventer do inject a large load, the victim is in a world of hurt and possibly life threatening circumstances.
Despite what some nay sayers posit, the British chef that was bitten by a Phoneutria a few years ago (he did save the specimen that was according to most accounts, positively identified) almost died of cardiac arrest hours after he was bitten, clearly demonstrate this spider's toxicity. My rule of thumb is, don't allow any spider to make contact, if for no other reason than the fact, all humans react differently based upon age, immune system, general sensitivity and the possibility of a bacterial pathogen etc.. For instance some people love to say that Cupiennius, another large, very creepy looking Ctenid is totally harmless and while it may be true in terms of its venom toxicity, would you really take a chance and let that beast bite you? I don't think so

Only thing I am qualified to reply to on this post is handling a Cupiennius spp. I totally have and would again. They are very docile unlike their cousins and I really don't see a reason to fear a big docile spider with a absurdly low LD50 rating. It's like a rose hair without the hair lol.

---------- Post added 05-04-2012 at 11:21 PM ----------

I suspect you have not checked out the bite reports lol. You should flip through that section

I'd be curious of your 2cents.

 

[The Snark]

While I realize the OP has the right to send the thread off in any direction, and I duly recognize some important information this thread has given, it appears that things have diverged from the original question: What could cause the described symptoms? Please feel free to correct me, but I know of no spider bite that has ever caused significant edema 18 months after the bite. Discussing the properties of various venoms has not addressed this fact.

I bring this up because I am extremely curious as to what would cause such a latent effect. Can anyone cite any spider bite that has caused significant edema just 2 or 3 months after the bite? How about any other animal venom? How about non animal toxins?

 

[ctenid]

While I realize the OP has the right to send the thread off in any direction, and I duly recognize some important information this thread has given, it appears that things have diverged from the original question: What could cause the described symptoms? Please feel free to correct me, but I know of no spider bite that has ever caused significant edema 18 months after the bite. Discussing the properties of various venoms has not addressed this fact.

I bring this up because I am extremely curious as to what would cause such a latent effect. Can anyone cite any spider bite that has caused significant edema just 2 or 3 months after the bite? How about any other animal venom? How about non animal toxins?

I just talked to the same grocery store (manager) two days ago and he again showed me his permanently disfigured finger. Its still horribly swollen with a gnarled bent position from the knuckle on to the finger tip. He again told me he clearly remembers the spider getting UNDER his plastic glove then as he tried to get it out, it bit him then dropped off and ran. He felt immediate local pain then the pain radiated up his arm to his shoulder creating intense pain then a temporary form of paralysis. He went to the ER (New London Hospital in New London NH) and eventually did experience systemic effects including nausea, sweating, palpitations etc. but after about 8 hours those systems subsided but his arm remained badly swollen.
The physician was unable to determine what was going on and didn't know squat about venomous spiders to boot. Eventually, after about a month and subsequent visits to his doctor, the arm returned to normal but his finger remained massively swollen with edema plus was darkened to the point that his doctor thought it was becoming possibly gangrenous and felt that he might have to remove it. According to the bite victim, after a continued round of antibiotics and other anti-inflammatories plus special treatments for the possible onset of gangrene, his finger finally improved but the swollen, bent position became permanent. I too, cannot fathom what type of spider could cause that specific reaction to one digit of the hand although it sounds like a few snake bite cases, however, he swears that its an irrefutable fact, he witnessed and felt this small dark brownish spider bite him. My best guess is still a baby Phoneutria but its still uncharacteristic unless it was a combined, anomalous immunological or allergic type of reaction.

 

[Smokehound714]

Should've washed the bite immediately. Lol He's got priapism of the thumb?

 

[The Snark]

I just talked to the same grocery store (manager) two days ago and he again showed me his permanently disfigured finger. Its still horribly swollen with a gnarled bent position from the knuckle on to the finger tip. He again told me he clearly remembers the spider getting UNDER his plastic glove then as he tried to get it out, it bit him then dropped off and ran. He felt immediate local pain then the pain radiated up his arm to his shoulder creating intense pain then a temporary form of paralysis. He went to the ER (New London Hospital in New London NH) and eventually did experience systemic effects including nausea, sweating, palpitations etc. but after about 8 hours those systems subsided but his arm remained badly swollen.
The physician was unable to determine what was going on and didn't know squat about venomous spiders to boot. Eventually, after about a month and subsequent visits to his doctor, the arm returned to normal but his finger remained massively swollen with edema plus was darkened to the point that his doctor thought it was becoming possibly gangrenous and felt that he might have to remove it. According to the bite victim, after a continued round of antibiotics and other anti-inflammatories plus special treatments for the possible onset of gangrene, his finger finally improved but the swollen, bent position became permanent. I too, cannot fathom what type of spider could cause that specific reaction to one digit of the hand although it sounds like a few snake bite cases, however, he swears that its an irrefutable fact, he witnessed and felt this small dark brownish spider bite him. My best guess is still a baby Phoneutria but its still uncharacteristic unless it was a combined, anomalous immunological or allergic type of reaction.

find keyboard.. drink more coffee... spit ant out...
It is academic at this juncture, and also anomalous. By the by, the 'systemic' effects you mentioned could have been shock. Asking us here is, if T Stoppard will forgive the analogy, like a group of blind men looting a bazaar for their own portraits.

Anyway, a full analysis by a competent pathologist with a reputable background in neuro-pathology is the next step. Then the findings need to be taken to a competent toxicologist and compared against the knowns on record. That -might- narrow down the MOI to either a genus or possibly even species, or not narrow it down at all which could indicate a yet to be identified animal. Bunch of bananas, possible tropical animal of which it is believed only about 10% have been fully described and accurately classified.
And then of course, unless the experts are able to refer to similar bite/sting/poisoning symptoms, this is an anomaly. IE, all findings are scientifically unacceptable without additional similar incidents on record. The knowns so far, a spider producing immediate effects of a virulent hemotoxin and latent effects common of Opheophagus Hannah type venom. More or less, an eight legged phylum jumping Russells or Saw Scaled viperspider. (Acute immediate pain= hemotoxin, deformity= specific neurotoxins).

The pathologists report would probably reveal a lot. Tissue samples would need to be taken of course, and the cause(s) of the deformity derived from the results which would in turn give at least some general idea of the toxin. That in turn could be used to come up with what animal packs that particular toxin. Some very serious detective work. Then, with data in hand, similar bite effects have to be found. That may involve searching medical records of hospitals and clinics throughout the region where the bananas came from. I think you get the idea of the scope of the undertaking.