Smithi Male, Boehmei female *PIC*

[Henry Kane]

Which brings up a good point...
Whenever this subject comes up, it's often stated that if someone's going to crossbreed, it should be done for the purpose of scientific study and the remaining offspring be destroyed etc. Does anyone know what studies have been done on hybrids? Or what exactly has been learned by this? I'm not challenging the possibility that useful knowlege was gained, I'm just curious as to what it was.

Atrax

 

[Mojo Jojo]

I think that I'm gonna have to move B. boehmei to the top of my "to get list". Damn!

Bd

 

[dennis]

Originally posted by Big Dragonfly
I think that I'm gonna have to move B. boehmei to the top of my "to get list". Damn!

Bd

Oh boy! I'm getting one later on today, or tomorrow (for only 45 euro =D) . She's molting right now in the reptile store so I can't take her home yet.. I will post the pics as soon as I get her .

Ðennis

 

[Brandon]

Atrax,
To be honest I really dont know what could be achevied by breeding, and studying hybrids. Alot of people seem to think that these, "offspring" would not be able to reproduce. I myself beleive they can. So if anyone else knows why science would have a need for it please share!

Sincerely,

Brandon

 

[JDS]

Originally posted by Atrax
What "useful" deed would YOU accomplish if YOU had a brood of x-bred s'lings?

Atrax

I do believe crossbreeding is an accepted scientific way of studying the relationship of different species and can be useful information to refine their taxonomy. Also, the viability and fertility of a particular crossbreed can not be predetermined. In some cases crossbreeding is the only way to prevent inbreeding problems in a limited population. Given the geographic relationship of the boehmei and smithi they may be related close enough to produce viable offspring.

I do agree that hybrids can cause problems in the hobby for those involved in breeding and when their identity is misrepresented. I also believe in general interbreeding should be discouraged.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by JDS
I do believe crossbreeding is an accepted scientific way of studying the relationship of different species and can be useful information to refine their taxonomy. Also, the viability and fertility of a particular crossbreed can not be predetermined.

Sure it can: First, since many Brachypelma hybrids have already been created by irresponsible twits, we can reasonably assume they would be viable. As for fertility, if they are genuinely separate species, the offspring are sterile. If they are actually the same species or subspecies, the offspring are fertile. Since arachnologists violently oppose subspecies status, fertile offspring is considered proof they are the *same* species. Since we can be reasonably certain that boehmi and smithi are actual species, the offspring will be sterile.

In some cases crossbreeding is the only way to prevent inbreeding problems in a limited population. Given the geographic relationship of the boehmei and smithi they may be related close enough to produce viable offspring.

This has been used to *very* limited degree with endangered mammal populations, e.g. the Florida panther, but I know of no application of the method outside of higher animals. In these cases, their "species" status is purely a result of geography and they would freely interbreed as one species if not separated by mountain ranges and oceans. Regardless, it's quite irrelevant since neither are endangered, nor would the offspring be fertile.

I do agree that hybrids can cause problems in the hobby for those involved in breeding and when their identity is misrepresented. I also believe in general interbreeding should be discouraged.

Not just discouraged, but outright forbidden unless the person doing the crossing is either a genuine taxonomist doing so to confirm species status, or a very advanced hobbyist who is both willing and responsible enough to destroy any and all offspring that he does not plan to raise personally.

With Ts, *any* cross breeding other than for taxonomic purposes is wasted effort, and since it is impossible to guarantee that an animal that might live 20-30 years will always be faithfully id'd by whoever has it, it can really cause a lot of harm to the hobby.

The example that I've put forth before is that if you unknowingly have a hybrid that looks enough like the species it was missold to you as you might very well waste valuable tarantulas of the opposite sex in a futile effort to breed it never knowing the real reason why every mating failed. One misID'd female could conceivably waste a couple of dozen males of a given species during her breeding span. So, not only is the energy put into the cross breeding by the irresponsible hobbyist a waste of effort, it can potentially cause many times the amount of wasted effort down the road.

Secondarily, even if we discover that two similar species really are the same species with different markings, what is accomplished by crossbreeding other than the creation of mutts which can dilute the bloodlines of formerly distinct parental types? As an example, consider P. murinus - we have the golden Mombasa and the Usambara types although both are considered to be the same species. In this case, both are widely available, easy to distinguish, but picture a similar case with rare bloodlines. All it would take is a couple of yahoos who sell the slings to a major distributor to perhaps permanently destroy the distinctness of both bloodlines because by the time the mix up is discovered, it may be impossible to tell what is 100% purebred and what isn't.

 

[The_Phantom]

You can cross breed Ts ? I didnt know that ! Has anyone seen cross breed production ? Can you cross breed say a Pink toe with a Pokie ? Or Rosie with a Smithi ?

 

[Slide]

This raises other questions about cross-breeding aside from ethical and hobbyist standpoints though.

DISCLAIMER: I by no means advocate/encourage/endorse/support/etc. crossbreeding of a species by anyone for any reason, so don't take this the wrong way, alright? I'm also not a taxonomist, nor an arachnologist, so it's safe to assume my knowledge of these things is quite limited..

Question is: You have a B.boehmi, and a B.smithi, that are acknowledging the presence of the other and the willingness to mate. They're also both found, geographically, in the same regions.

Why is it assumed that they will neither cross-breed on their own in the wild, that we have not already seen the (fertile?) offspring of this, and misID'd said offspring as a possible /3rd/ species? Or, maybe one of the two is /already/ the result of cross-breeding in the wild?

My understanding of the CITES-listing of the Brachypelma genus is that they were hunted for the pet trade to the point where they were almost completely removed from their natural habitat. Combined with the fact that we have an example of two supposedly different species engaging in courtship activities, would indicate to me that the potential (neigh, probability) of the two "species" cross-breeding in the wild exists, that the offspring of such cross-breeding is likely already present in the hobbyist/pet trade, and that the offspring of such crossbreeding is fertile.

Of course, constructive/educational responses to this would be vastly preferred over random flamage...but I expect I'll get both..

Cheers!

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Spider_savior
You can cross breed Ts ? I didnt know that ! Has anyone seen cross breed production ? Can you cross breed say a Pink toe with a Pokie ? Or Rosie with a Smithi ?

Where have you been? this topic has been thrashed out and on numerous times since you've been on the boards.

The answers to your questions are yes, no, and no. Plenty of hybrids have been produced either responsibly by taxonomists verifying species status as described above, or irresponsibly for the pet trade by hobbyists, most often in Europe from what I've seen.

To crossbreed two species they must be very closely related, i.e. the same genus, or from two genera so closely related that their classification as separate genera is probably in dispute. So Avicularia and Poecilotheria is out as isn't your Grammastola and Brachypelma scenario.

(The ability to form viable hybrids is, incidentally, strong evidence of incremental (genetic) evolution so maybe you shouldn't look too closely into this subject )